Shortage of parking places.

[Brian Kirby]

My underwear is perfectly comfortable thank you John, and I am not unduly concerned about cars parked near me for whatever reason :-).  I can't see where democracy comes in to this: the essence of wild camping can hardly be described as democratic, but rather as anarchic.

I would class myself as hard working, and I am now drawing my pension, yet I hold the views I have expressed.  I don't see that being either hard working, or a pensioner, alters the fact that large numbers of motorhomes lining French fishing harbour harbour jetties, or even in the middle of a Moroccan beach for that matter, are a gross imposition on local residents, blight the locality for other visitors, block views, are basically ugly, and all too often, create a health hazard.

From among the group, looking out, none of this is apparent; but from outside the group, however, looking at it, the eyesore is all too clear.

[david lloyd]

creakyknee - 2010-03-01 3:10 AM

 

.............and I would rather spend it as I see fit. Is it not better to spread it around the places we stay than to give it to a campsite owner, who by definition has enough?..............

 

..............they only have enough if campers continue to use the facilities the campsite owners have paid a lot of money to buy or provide originally..............

 

David

[creakyknee]

OK then Brian how many vans constitute an eyesore? one, two, three, four. Is your van an eyesore, if so should you be keeping it? We all have our own idea of an eyesore but we can all turn and look the other way. Live and let live, life's too short to be judging everyone by your own standards.

[creakyknee]

As you say David they paid a lot of money, in the hope of making more, greed?

[Tomo3090]

Crikey Creakyknees! You're new here so you might not know but Brian is one of the more "reasonable" open minded people using this forum!

 

Yes Brian , I know you can argue your own corner, but I just felt J had to say something!

 

As for the topic, we "wildcamped last year in Spain, in the early part of the year and we only met with friendliness and were never moved on where we stayed, even when a lot of vans were present. The police did move people on but it was reasonably friendly, and I didn't hear of anyone getting fined. At Cabo De Gata the villagers stopped the police moving people on because the vans were the only source of income the shops had because the tourists hadn't started coming in large numbers yet so early in the year.

 

I realise that in some places it has become a problem though. Incidentaly, the only people we saw abusing the disposal of waste was the Germans and Dutch, who seemed to be totally uninterested as to where they disposed of either type of waste. It did surprise me considering how "right on" they seem to be about the environment at home!

 

I did witness a Dutch guy go through a police road block trying to photograph and take the names of vans using the area just outside the town, but on the beach near Mojacar where vans were parked. He stated quite openly and loudly to the police officer in charge that as an EU citizen he had right of passage in Europe and they had no right to stop him because he had not commited an offence because " overnight parking" as opposed to "camping" was allowed in Spain. Added to that he was parked on private land and the owner hadn't refused him permission! The police were so amazed at his insistence on his "rights" and they probably didn't want the hassle, they let him drive off unhindered!

 

It would also be interesting to see whether the drop in tourism numbers alters the way van owners are treated by the local police and traders.

[davenewellhome]

creakyknee - 2010-03-01 8:33 PM

 

As you say David they paid a lot of money, in the hope of making more, greed?

 

Or just good business practice? I run my own business, am I greedy to want to increase my turnover and profitability? What about the technician I may need to employ who wants a 20K salary is he being greedy or am I being a mean employer for only offering him 18K? (this is purely fictitious as I don't intend to employ anyone at the moment).

 

The nature of a good business is to offer goods or a service that people want or need and charge an acceptable amount for that good or service. if the business doesn't make a profit then the owner will not make a living. If it makes a tidy profit over and above paying a decent wage to the owner then that money can be, and often is, ploughed back into the business to improve the range of goods and services on offer.

 

D.

[creakyknee]

Hi Dave, What about the bankers then, do you identify yourself with them? You don't use the Police to force people to trade with you. This is what I think some of the site owners have been doing in Portugal.

[davenewellhome]

creakyknee - 2010-03-01 9:38 PM

 

Hi Dave, What about the bankers then, do you identify yourself with them? You don't use the Police to force people to trade with you. This is what I think some of the site owners have been doing in Portugal.

 

I'm sorry but I don't see the connection. The police move people on because they are breaking the law not because campsite owners want more custom!

 

you made an assertion that campsite owners are greedy because they wish to make more money, as you didn't differentiate which site owners you referred to we can only assume you mean all site owners.

 

D.

 

D.

[Lord Raindrop]

Will someone oil those CreakyKnees they're affecting his writing skills.

[GypsyTom]

creakyknee - 2010-03-01 9:38 PMHi Dave, What about the bankers then, do you identify yourself with them? You don't use the Police to force people to trade with you. This is what I think some of the site owners have been doing in Portugal.

You have no proof whatsoever that this is the case and I find your attitude both hypocritical and unreasonable.

You state in an earlier post that you don't stay on sites because site owners have 'by definition' enough money already. How do you know? We are talking about people who may have risked all to start a business and could well be up to their eyeballs in bank loans for all you know.

Do you refuse to shop in supermarkets because the owners have 'by definition' enough money already?

You claim that site owners investing money into their sites are 'greedy' and yet the only really greedy person who's appeared in this thread is you. You seem to be prepared to park anywhere, no matter who it offends or inconveniences, simply to save a few Euro.

And what if you are a pensioner who claims to have worked hard? We've all worked hard but you appear to be the kind of pensioner who can afford to keep his house at home and spend the Winter enjoying a long holiday in a foreign country.

What you never appear to have done is to mortgage your house and risk all on starting your own business as Dave Newell and others may have done. Without entrepreneurs and businessmen you wouldn't have your shiny motorhome and several weeks' holiday every Winter because you'd be living in the dismal equivalent of the old Soviet bloc where living standards where a fraction of the free-enterprise western democracies.

Admit it, you don't use sites for one reason and for one reason only, because you're tight!

[rupert123]

creakyknee - 2010-03-01 9:38 PM

 

Hi Dave, What about the bankers then, do you identify yourself with them? You don't use the Police to force people to trade with you. This is what I think some of the site owners have been doing in Portugal.

 

What strange posts John. From your first one you do not even have personal experience of this, it is yet another 'I was told by a block who knew a block that, etc etc.' You would sell your van because of this and assume it is site owners putting pressure on police. As for a site owner who invests probably hundreds of thousands of Euro,s being greedy because he wants to make a profit and then forces you to trade with them by using police, this statement beggers belief. Personally I cannot remember the last time I paid more than 15e for a site and certainly do not want to upset locals by camping on their street or seafront, it is not worth the bother.

[Brian Kirby]

Relax guys, it's all a wind up!  :-D

[creakyknee]

Hi Guys, Sorry I've touched a raw nerve with you. You're beginning to see things that were not there. I didn't say I was selling my van. I said I would not be buying another. This is because of the increase in numbers of vans and the restrictions that are now in place. Do you all really enjoy being on site, packed close together with other peoples noise, animals and children?

With regard to site owners it was not really a generalisation I was thinking really of the one place we stayed for the past ten years. It was well away from any domestic dwelling. We had never been moved, there were all nationalities there, yet within 18 months of the new site being opened the Police have closed it down. No, I haven't any proof.

Now then as regards to these heroes making the money. When is enough, enough. Is one million enough? How much does a skilled man earn. How much can he save in a lifetime? That is assuming he pays all his tax that's due. Are we being ripped off by the lawyers and bankers? Is the man with the failed business ,who mortgaged his house, responsible for this recession and the fact that at the one point in my life when I have savings there is no interest on it? So many questions and all from me wanting to park my van!

With regard to me using supermarkets I now have little choice ,all the local butchers, bakers and grocers have been run out of town. It may be business but it's a dirty business.

I admit it, I am tight, I have to be tight that's why us 'poor' people can go to Portugal for the Winter. I like to go there so that I can rub shoulders with you rich people! but not on a site!

 

 

(lol)

[creakyknee]

Just been thinking about going to Peterborough Show. I remember last time I went ,a lady in a nearby house, was complaining about motohomes being parked too close to her house. I expect with all this furore about wild camping I should give it some thought. 3 or 4000 vans parked at the bottom of your garden might be a bit of an eyesore.

[davenewellhome]

I'm sorry Jon but you're not making enough sense for me to continue with this discussion. In the words of Dragon's Den, I'm out!

 

D.

[creakyknee]

Well Dave the point is that 3 or 4 motor-homes parked on a quay-side are considered an eyesore but 3 or 4000 parked at the bottom of someone's garden are not. :-S

[Philjp]

One local council In Wales as stopped parking on the sea front promenade to every one. This enforcement was put into place Due to Motor homes being parked up for days on end, Waste water being discharged into the drains was one reason given by the council, They also considered the length of time motor homes where parked up. This was not a spontaneous decision as they monitored the problem over 3 months. Other local authorities are now looking at this Problem. We are not helped by the problem with travellers who regularly transit thro S Wales causing problems were they decide to stop. I stopped at the Aired in Cornflower last September and it was Jam packed Full I counted 219 vans parked up. We stopped only the one night. The day we left there was a gathering of Official looking People. Next to me was French Family whom we had spent the night before sharing a bottle of Wine. My new found Friend explained they were the Major and his council and the Police. To many Vans to Many Problems he stated. Many Motor homers are responsible People unfortunately the Minority raise the bar as they say....Wild camping is illegal in Wales and Some Police will move you on My local council as banned sleeping overnight in any carpark or Laybye...

[Randonneur]

creakyknee - 2010-03-02 5:48 AM

 

 

With regard to site owners it was not really a generalisation I was thinking really of the one place we stayed for the past ten years. It was well away from any domestic dwelling. We had never been moved, there were all nationalities there, yet within 18 months of the new site being opened the Police have closed it down. No, I haven't any proof.

 

 

(lol)

 

Have you got the guts to name the site?

[creakyknee]

Hi Martin, No, as I say I have no proof but I can have an opinion.

[GJH]

creakyknee - 2010-03-02 8:32 AM

 

Well Dave the point is that 3 or 4 motor-homes parked on a quay-side are considered an eyesore but 3 or 4000 parked at the bottom of someone's garden are not. :-S

The real difference is normally that the showground (as with most football grounds) was there well before the houses but that the use of quay-sides (and the like) by motorhomes has happened (or, at least, increased to a large extent) after the houses were built.

 

If people move to an area where it is already normal for large gatherings to happen then they have no grounds for complaint. If large gatherings start after people take up residence they may well have grounds.

 

Graham

[creakyknee]

Sorry Graham that argument's no good. Motor-homes were going to the Med and the Algarve long before most of those holiday block houses were built! They only bought the house they didn't buy the view.

[GJH]

creakyknee - 2010-03-02 10:31 AM

 

Sorry Graham that argument's no good. Motor-homes were going to the Med and the Algarve long before most of those holiday block houses were built! They only bought the house they didn't buy the view.

I was thinking about your comment from yesterday "Do you get uptight when a load of cars all park up near you for a football match etc?" when I posted, as it suggested that you thought there was a correlation.

 

I honestly don't know the answer but were MHs parking legally before the houses were built or just where people liked to park? There is definitely a problem in this country with people parking, illegally, along roads where houses have existed for decades.

 

However, whether parking in the past was legal or not, times change. Local and central government bodies have to balance the needs of all sections of the population. It is quite understandable that the result is a ban on parking just anywhere, if it causes upset and annoyance to some, when there are camp sites where MHs can be parked without troubling anyone.

 

Graham

[Tony Jones]

I'm reluctant to join this thread, as it has been turning rather unpleasant. However, I do think there's an important point here.

 

I know that many motorhomers are quite content to use campsites all the time, but others (like me) want to make use of the facilities we've already paid for (on board) rather than paying again for them on a campsite (which is primarily designed for tents and caravans). This is especially true when we're touring, doing different things during the day, and simply need somewhere we can use our own bed and bathroom at night.

 

But that's NOT the same thing as wanting free parking wherever we fancy, for as long as we want, or the right to interfere with other peoples' enjoyment of coastal or rural locations.

 

France is exceptional in the welcome it offers us, and the legal right to park wherever a car can. I don't expect the UK, Spain, or any other country to imitate that, and there are signs that this easy-going regime may eventually change even in France, due to selfish people abusing that hospitality.

 

It seems to me that what is really needed is the sort of network that Aires, Stellplätze and France Passion offer in their respective countries - basic places where a self-contained motorhome can stay overnight, either for a realistic fee or after patronising the owner's business.

 

The Clubs provide CLs/CSs in the UK, but even with those, there does seem to be an upward "creep" in facilites, and therefore fees! PMH and the MCC seem to have the right idea with their "stopover" scheme, but it's taking a while to get going.

 

Graham's website is really helpful too, flagging up those places where local authorities have taken the view that it's worth their while (for the business we bring in) to encourage us.

 

There's no need to accuse non-site-users of meanness, it's just that we'd rather spend our holiday budget doing things during the day, than on expensive campsites. But equally, we shouldn't assume we have some divine right to turn someone else's road or town into our playground.

[creakyknee]

Hi Stephen, Thanks for your post. Yours is about the only bit of support I've had. We have been wild camping in France, Spain and Portugal for the past ten years. We have only been moved on once, by the Police at Lagos. There used to be a large area there but as holiday flats were erected we were pushed further and further out of the town until all camping was stopped. We have always been careful where we stayed and tried not to offend anyone, only other campers with generators! These posts seem to be a battle between the haves and have nots. No allowance is being given for people living on their capital. The attitude appears to be ' we're alright jack', do as I do, pay up.

 

 

 

 

[creakyknee]

Hi Tony, Thanks for your input. At last someone with some comonsense. What we need are more aires. Fresh water, disposal point and parking area. Farmers are wingeing they aren't making money, councils should buy some land and get cracking. I realize cash is tight but until I see salaries of the top execs slashed I can't believe it. Don't worry about the posts Tony as my wife tells everyone we're not arguing we are having a heated discussion. I think some of them must feel a bit guilty about the amount of money they have!