Shortage of parking places.

[GJH]

Mickydripin - 2010-03-10 4:29 PM

 

GJH yes it did comply with Tax mot and insurance in the Netherlands.

 

But as I said whilst in the UK the truck was never road taxed, as he was back and forth to holland he only purchased road tax from service stations for the short time that he was in holland one day two day etc.

 

Sorry, didn't explain myself properly. If the vehicle is a Dutch one and complies with Dutch requirements then it does not have to pay UK tax - which is the point which Tracker was making.

 

Graham

[Brian Kirby]

I have done a little digging, and it seems the wording relating to VED is that it is required by the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994.

Section 1 (1) states: "A duty of excise (“vehicle excise duty”) shall be charged in respect of every mechanically propelled vehicle which is used, or kept, on a public road in the United Kingdom and shall be paid on a licence to be taken out by the person keeping the vehicle." 

Section 19 (1) states: "Where a licence is surrendered to the Secretary of State under section 10(2) or 14(2), the holder is entitled to receive from the Secretary of State (by way of rebate of the duty paid on the licence) an amount equal to one-twelfth of the annual rate of duty chargeable on the licence in respect of each complete month of the period of the currency of the licence which is unexpired at the date of the surrender."

Public road, is defined as follows:

(a) in England and Wales and Northern Ireland, means a road which is repairable at the public expense, and

(b) in Scotland, has the same meaning as in the [1984 c. 54.] Roads (Scotland) Act 1984,

So, it would seem there may be no actual requirement to maintain a vehicle taxed in UK while it is being used abroad under the 1994 Act.

However, according to DVLA you are required to keep your vehicle continuously taxed, or to make a SORN.  (But why on earth don't they quote the governing legislation when they make these assertions?)  I understand that under an EC Directive there is an agreement that all vehicles temporarily used outside their state of registration must be kept registered, taxed, and insured in their country of registration for up to six months.  After six months they must be removed from that country, or registered, taxed and insured in that country.  However, I haven't been able to find the actual directive, which will have been given effect in UK through Ministerial Regulation.

If your tax would expire while you are out of the UK, just as with insurance or MoT, your vehicle must be taxed to remain legal.  It is claimed by DVLA that SORN cannot be declared if the vehicle is outside the UK.  The tax can be renewed on line, or by phone, but the disc will be sent to the address of the registered keeper of the vehicle.  If it can be sent on by relative or friend, that is fine.  If it cannot, the solution would appear to be to surrender the tax disc, and immediately apply to re-tax the vehicle, before leaving UK.

Even if there is no actual legislation requiring a vehicle to be kept taxed while abroad, you are thus faced with a couple of practical problems.  You will have to declare SORN and surrender your tax disc.  You then have to get to, and from a port.  You may be able to get to the port before the SORN takes effect, but you will have some difficulty getting back home from a port with an untaxed vehicle, or trying to re-tax it while abroad while the SORN is in force.  Don't forget those nice little character recognition cameras they now have at the ports at number plate height!

Anyone want to fill in the blanks for me, and quote the bits of legislation I couldn't find?  Otherwise, it seems to me far simpler just to accept that maintaining the vehicle taxed while away is probably the legal requirement.  If you don't agree, you're on your own!  :-D

[Mel B]

creakyknee - 2010-03-10 11:31 AMHi Rupert, I started off by saying RFL issue was open to debate Then that if it expired whilst abroad you had a problem. I don't know of anyone being prosecuted for not having valid RFL licence whilst abroad. There are probably some now that SORN is in force.

The rules that allow a vehicle to be towed on an A frame abroad are dependant on our vehicle being 'legal' here.

 

Roy, I know it's possible to get your vehicle taxed by getting someone here to do it and post it, but there are problems.

If you are concerned that your road tax will expire whilst you are abroad the simplest thing is to first surrender it (to get outstanding months back) and then immediately re-tax it (ideally do this shortly before you go abroad), that way, unless you are abroad for over a year (which would then probably cause problems for your MOT and possibly insurance cover anyway), you will have road tax in place so won't have to worry. Simple is it not? :-S Just because you don't know of anyone being fined whilst traveling abroad without a valid UK RFL, or that we haven't heard from anyone who's had an accident without a valid UK RFL as to whether or not they've still been covered by their insurance, doesn't mean it hasn't happened. I hope it hasn't but why would anyone want to take the risk? When our van was vandalised in Holland and we made a claim through our insurers they wanted to know EVERYTHING about our van which was, of course, taxed - they even wanted to see copies of the Eurotunnel bookings, goodness knows why.

[creakyknee]

Thanks for that Brian. It's all down to forward planning. Same with MOT, I think I am going to have to pay for two MOTs this year so that I am covered whilst away. 

[GJH]

The legislation that covers SORN is the Road Vehicles (Registration and Licensing) Regulations 2002

 

From what I could find, it appears that the EC Directive is as explained Here - pages 13 onwards are the relevant ones I think.

 

Come a long way from Shortage of Parking Places hasn't it :-D

 

Graham

[creakyknee]

To add to the original post here is a snippet from another site.


http://www.wildcamping.co.uk/forums/images/icons/icon14.gifFrench cities condemned

---

The CLC (Comité de Liaison du Camping-car) (a motorhome organisation)brought the cities of La Baule, Nice and Cannes to justice fordiscrimination of motorhomers by putting height barriers, and /orinterdictions for motorhomes and overnightparking and other abusivemeasures. http://www.wildcamping.co.uk/forums/images/smilies/confused.gif
And they won the law suit. http://www.wildcamping.co.uk/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif
All discrimination has to be ended and justice condemned the cities topay a fine to CLC, and they should retire all discriminating measurestowards moterhomers. http://www.wildcamping.co.uk/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif
In France, allready generally motorhome friendly, they sure take the bull by the horns. http://www.wildcamping.co.uk/forums/images/smilies/eek.gif
An idea to be followed ? http://www.wildcamping.co.uk/forums/images/smilies/confused.gifhttp://www.wildcamping.co.uk/forums/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Viva la France.

[GJH]

creakyknee - 2010-03-16 7:11 AM(snip)An idea to be followed ? http://www.wildcamping.co.uk/forums/images/smilies/confused.gifhttp://www.wildcamping.co.uk/forums/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

 

Viva la France.

 

Presumably that's you volunteering then? :-) Let us know how you get on.Graham

[creakyknee]

GJH - 2010-03-16 8:18 AM

creakyknee - 2010-03-16 7:11 AM(snip)An idea to be followed ? http://www.wildcamping.co.uk/forums/images/smilies/confused.gifhttp://www.wildcamping.co.uk/forums/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

 

Viva la France.

 

Presumably that's you volunteering then? :-) Let us know how you get on.Graham

 

Hi Graham,

 

 I don't think we would have much success, too many opponents to wild camping on this site.Do you think a petition to No. 10  would be any use? suggestions -

Removal of all height barriers.

Immediate confiscation of vehicles without valid RFL, insurance or MOT. Production on demand. Member of ethnic minority not an excuse.

Parking to be allowed on School and Council Office car parks between 7pm and 8am. Might deter damage to premises, well it might if we were allowed to deal with the vandals.

Parking allowed on all  supermarket car parks between 8pm and 9am. This would be part compensation for closing down our shops in the High Street.

 

Well that's it for starters. A petition would need names of course!

 

 

[GypsyTom]

I think that you are wrong when you say that there are too many opponents of 'wild' camping on this site.

My inference is that people have no problem with 'wild' camping in wild places, where their motorhomes are unseen by anyone but themselves.

What many people do not appear to support is 'free' camping in places that are patently unsuited and where their motorhomes are a blight on a neighbourhood, an intrusion on a residential area and an annoyance to those residents.

I camp wild in certain places. I do it this way because there are no aires or camp sites. People who free-camp in towns often have a number of reasonably-priced sites within a short drive and residents know this. 

Consequently, they also know that the free-campers in their £10 - 80K motorhomes are blighting their lives just to save a few Euro. No wonder they get annoyed and campaign for their removal.

[creakyknee]

Consequently, they also know that the free-campers in their £30 - 80K motorhomes are blighting their lives just to save a few Euro. No wonder they get annoyed and campaign for their removal.

 

Hi GT, Does that mean you want to keep the sub £30,000

motorhomes out of this. Reasonably priced,to you Tom, probably means blxxdy expensive for me

 

[GypsyTom]

creakyknee - 2010-03-16 10:22 AM

Consequently, they also know that the free-campers in their £30 - 80K motorhomes are blighting their lives just to save a few Euro. No wonder they get annoyed and campaign for their removal.

 

Hi GT, Does that mean you want to keep the sub £30,000

motorhomes out of this. Reasonably priced,to you Tom, probably means blxxdy expensive for me

Not at all. I just took a stab at the approximate values of the motorhomes that one sees free-parking in some locations. I've altered it to keep you happy.

I've no doubt that some one may now take me to task for implying that they are poorer than they really are, by not mentioning their £100K+ gin palace!

[J9withdogs]

The use of height barriers to deter 'travellers' fro moving into a carpark doesn't always hold true.

 

There is a lovely Shropshire town, Oswestry, that has height barriers on all of it's public car parks.

 

There is a small retail park a stone's throw from the town centre with no height barrier. I asked if I could park there for an hour and received a friendly 'yes' from one of the shop managers.

 

They don't appear to have a problem with 'travellers' taking up residence, so why does the council think that it would be a problem?

 

Surely in these days of Big Brother CCTV cameras monitoring the town centres, 'travellers' would be spotted long before they could unhitch their mobile homes.

[GJH]

creakyknee - 2010-03-16 9:26 AM

GJH - 2010-03-16 8:18 AM

creakyknee - 2010-03-16 7:11 AM(snip)An idea to be followed ? http://www.wildcamping.co.uk/forums/images/smilies/confused.gifhttp://www.wildcamping.co.uk/forums/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

 

Viva la France.

 

Presumably that's you volunteering then? :-) Let us know how you get on.Graham

 

Hi Graham,

 

 I don't think we would have much success, too many opponents to wild camping on this site.Do you think a petition to No. 10  would be any use? suggestions -

Removal of all height barriers.

Immediate confiscation of vehicles without valid RFL, insurance or MOT. Production on demand. Member of ethnic minority not an excuse.

Parking to be allowed on School and Council Office car parks between 7pm and 8am. Might deter damage to premises, well it might if we were allowed to deal with the vandals.

Parking allowed on all  supermarket car parks between 8pm and 9am. This would be part compensation for closing down our shops in the High Street.

 

Well that's it for starters. A petition would need names of course!

 

One thing is for sure - you won't have any success by doing nothing.A petition to Number 10 will do not good at all. It's been tried before but had no chance because parking is a local government function, not central government.Your initial post about the French case seemed to be saying that you thought a similar action in the UK might succeed. If that is the case why not do something about it? You don't need to look for support from anyone else to mount a complaint against what you think is an illegal action by a local authority. You simply use their complaints procedure and if they don't do as you wish or give an adequate answer to the charge of illegality you use the Local Government Ombudsman Service - which is free.So, what are you waiting for? Go for it if you think councils are acting illegally. Let us know how you get on. Otherwise we might just suspect you were trying to stir it :-D Graham

[creakyknee]

 

So, what are you waiting for? Go for it if you think councils are acting illegally. Let us know how you get on. Otherwise we might just suspect you were trying to stir it :-D Graham

 

Hi Graham, Where did I say the Council were acting illegally? The council usually have height barriers on to stop HGVs and long stay travellers. They have big time problems moving them on. It is central government that could make the laws confiscating the vehicles but no chance of that now with civil liberties and human rights. I take it then that it's a NO from you for the petition.

 

[GJH]

creakyknee - 2010-03-16 12:39 PM 

So, what are you waiting for? Go for it if you think councils are acting illegally. Let us know how you get on. Otherwise we might just suspect you were trying to stir it :-D Graham

 

Hi Graham, Where did I say the Council were acting illegally? The council usually have height barriers on to stop HGVs and long stay travellers. They have big time problems moving them on. It is central government that could make the laws confiscating the vehicles but no chance of that now with civil liberties and human rights. I take it then that it's a NO from you for the petition.

Where did you suggest councils were acting illegally? In your post timed at 7:11 this morning where you said

The CLC (Comité de Liaison du Camping-car) (a motorhome organisation)brought the cities of La Baule, Nice and Cannes to justice fordiscrimination of motorhomers by putting height barriers, and /orinterdictions for motorhomes and overnightparking and other abusivemeasures.

and suggested that was an idea to be followed in this country.Cities (which, according to your post, had lost a law suit - i.e. had been found to be acting illegally) are local, not state, authorities. It follows, therefore, that for the idea to be taken up in this country it would be to take action against our local authorities, for committing illegal acts.I told you why a petition would be useless and also pointed out that you need await nobody else before taking action. Funny how, whenever I encourage people to actually act on their own suggestions very few do isn't it?I wonder why? No I don't, I know why - and so do those encouraged who do not act.Graham

[creakyknee]

Hi Graham, I can see why people get pxssed off with this forum. The information posted was from another site about what had happened in France. You then try and put the onus on me to to solve the problem here. I've already told you I rarely use my motorhome here. I've made suggestions, you don't like them, tough.

[GJH]

creakyknee - 2010-03-16 1:49 PM

 

Hi Graham, I can see why people get pxssed off with this forum. The information posted was from another site about what had happened in France. You then try and put the onus on me to to solve the problem here. I've already told you I rarely use my motorhome here. I've made suggestions, you don't like them, tough.

Fine, carry on complaining and leave actually doing something to someone else. So much easier that way isn't it?

[david lloyd]

creakyknee - 2010-03-16 1:49 PM

 

Hi Graham, I can see why people get pxssed off with this forum. The information posted was from another site about what had happened in France. You then try and put the onus on me to to solve the problem here. I've already told you I rarely use my motorhome here. I've made suggestions, you don't like them, tough.

 

Yeah, I can see why some people get fed up with some others on the forum. Those who can, do - those who can't just moan about it.

 

 

[Tony Jones]

Just catching up with this thread, which I haven't looked at for a while.

"Creaky's" idea of a petition to no10 wouldn't make any difference in the short term, since as Graham says it's a local authority matter.

 

HOWEVER ... the French case he cited, succeeded because NATIONAL law says that MHs are legally cars. We don't have that law here - quite the opposite, we're legally "caravans!" (remember all the discussion about covenants on residential property?)

So a petition to No10 (once we know who'll be living there!) could be helpful in arguing for a change in our legal status.

 

Go for it Creaky, I'll sign if it's for that, but it's no use if it's just about the decisions of local councils.