vansearcher Posted March 27, 2010 Share Posted March 27, 2010 I have an Autosleeper Nuevo 2003 based on 1997cc TDi Peugeot Boxer. The fridge does not work on 12v nor does the leisure battery charge from the alternator. The fridge circuitry is ok and the leisure battery is new. At the moment the feed to the fridge and leisure battery relays is taken from the ignition lead terminal on the alternator. This looks strange because the wire crosses the whole width of the engine from offside to nearside then passes through the bulkhead on the nearside only to crosss the vehicle again to the relays under the driver's seat. When the engine is started the ignition light stays on. When the relays are removed from their sockets the ignition light goes out. Can anyone help? Where is the feed to the relays supposed to come from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Posted March 27, 2010 Share Posted March 27, 2010 You do have a problem with the split charge and fridge relay circuit or perhaps the vehicle alternator is not working. The circuit is on the link below but if you cannot follow it then you really need an electrician to sort it for you. Good luck C. http://www.motts.org/SPLIT%20CHARGING%20SYSTEM.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted March 27, 2010 Share Posted March 27, 2010 The split charging relays are on the inside edge of the front of the bonnet - or they were on my last Nuevo - and the fuses get wet and dirty and lose contact. First step is to clean the fuse holder internal contacts and replace both fuses if there is any sign of dirt or wet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted March 27, 2010 Share Posted March 27, 2010 Hi Vansearcher, Try removing one relay at a time and then starting the engine. You will hopefully find that one circuit works correctly while the other leaves your ignition light on. If you then try the other relay in the first position OR the 'good' relay in the second position you will start narrowing down whether the fault is in the relay or the vans wiring beyond the relay and on which circuit. Does this make sense, try it and post your findings and we'll see if we can help from there. Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Posted March 27, 2010 Share Posted March 27, 2010 "The split charging relays are on the inside edge of the front of the bonnet " Well, if thats the case as you say corrosion inside the relays is the most likely and a probable culprit. Having confirmed that the sodden relays are the problem I would seriously consider re-locating them and the associated fuses in a drier location. C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted March 27, 2010 Share Posted March 27, 2010 Check the connection to the alternator is not corroded as well. All the symptoms add up to a high resistance connecton to the D terminal on the alternator. You can check the relay circuits by disconnecting the cable to the relays from the alternator, and connect the relay coil +ve terminals to any 12 volts such as the leisure battery positive. The relays will then close and battery charge and fridge should then be operating again. You have then isolated to being the cable from alternator, and as I have said I suspect a high resistance connection to alternator. So that is my penny worths for what it is. Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vansearcher Posted March 28, 2010 Author Share Posted March 28, 2010 Many thanks for all the responses so far. The following have all been checked. 1. The fridge and its wiring have been checked and all found to be working. This was done by directly connecting the wiring from the relay to the fridge to 12V. 2. The leisure battery wiring is ok. 3. The relays have been checked by removing them and connecting their inputs to 12V. 4. The fuses are all intact. 5. The vehicle battery voltage is ok on the relay terminals. However when one or both of the relays are in their sockets the vehicle's charge/ignition light stays on and the relays do not operate. The wire going to the relay operating terminals only measures 6V and the vehicle battery voltage does not show an increase above its normal (non charging) 12.6V. When both relays are removed from their sockets the charge/ignition light goes out and the battery voltage rises to 14.3V showing that the alternator is charging. The relay operating voltage reads 12V. The vehicle has recently had a new alternator fitted and the additional wire going to the relays was removed. We have reconnected this wire with these results and are wondering if we have connected it to the correct alternator terminal? Does anybody have any idea where it should be connected? Should it go to the alternator as all the information suggests or should it go to somewhere entirely different? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted March 28, 2010 Share Posted March 28, 2010 OK problem solved. You have wired to the wrong terminal on the alternator. Now to find were correct terminal is. It is called the D terminal. I shall check the wiring diagrams and see if I can give you exact information. The cable you need to connect to is also available at the fuse box left hand side of dashboard, I will see if I can give location of this cable and colour as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted March 28, 2010 Share Posted March 28, 2010 Looking at cct diagran now, and is not terribly clear. However the terminal you want is called D+ and should already have a cable connected which goes to the ignition lamp cct. The colour code is HM. (sorry do not know what actual colour is as can not find cross reference for codes and cannot remember HM of top of head). This cable also runs to a connector(link) up near the back of the battery. It then runs across to right hand side and through the bulkhead. There is a connector near the fuse box behind lower right hand side of dash where it changes to GN colour code. So basically you need to wire the control cable to your relays to this HM cable on alternator identfied as D+. Later I can look at a vehicle and identify properly the cable near fuse box. It is a much better place to connect by splicing as inside cab and as your cable already runs this route should be easy. What you have connected to is an aux connection for controlling the optput of the alternator regulator in some appications. In effect you are turning the alternator off when it is loaded with the coils of the relays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted March 28, 2010 Share Posted March 28, 2010 Ok, got some more info for you. You say the relays are under the driver seat, and presumably you have the harness there for battery power etc, well, you also have a cable or should which is the cable you need for driving the relays from the D+ terminal. Easy to find while you have the fault, look for the lighter weight cable which has 6 volts on it. I assume you have mentioned route of additional cable fitted by convertor and not part of the harness which takes a similar route. So why would convertor add an additional cable is what I am wondering. Maybe a hangover from when they fitted relays under the bonnet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vansearcher Posted March 28, 2010 Author Share Posted March 28, 2010 I can see only two terminals on my alternator: one marked B+ to which is connected the heavy gauge cable to the starter battery, and one unmarked terminal, (D+ ?) to which is connected the small gauge ignition lead. The problem arises when the feed to the relays is taken directly from this D+ terminal. Also, I don't think it was the converter who added the extra cable but was the seller who tried to fix a problem of "the leisure battery not charging" just prior to my purchasing the van by "adding in a new wire"! So working backwards from the relays under the drivers seat where also is the harness for the battery power: The original relay feed cable (purple) travels across the floor pan and up past the fuse box you mentioned at the nearside (UK) bulkhead. but it then continues through the bulkhead where this "new wire" has been added and which continues down to the D+ terminal on the alternator. The purple cable may have begun in the area of this fuse box originally so I will be interested if you can find out the colour of the cable to splice into or any other areas to look at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted March 28, 2010 Share Posted March 28, 2010 1. Is there a part number and model number or any ID on the new alternator so this can be checked out exactly what the spec is? It is possible it is faulty, possibly caused by the cable at some time shorting to ground. The output is fed by 3 diodes one to each if the 3 coils in the alternator. It is basically a 3 phase alternator and is possible the diodes have been blasted. It would not stop the alternator charging the battery. 2. Does the ignition lamp come on when you turn on the ignition but do not start the engine with the relays unplugged? However I think you mentioned when you connect the cable the engine battery also stops charging. In this case I would be concerned it is possible the replacement alternator does not have a D terminal and only an auxilliary control connection. Very unusual I would have thought but possible. In ths case the 6 volts you get is the volt drop across the ignition lamp driving the coils of the relay coils. This could also be true if the 3 diodes in alternator are blasted. Hence why the info on alternator part number/make would be useful. My money is on the alternator D+ output being faulty. Maybe the fault with orignal alternator was the same, aternator was changed and whatever blasted the old one blasted the new one. A ground short in the cable to the relays maybe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted March 29, 2010 Share Posted March 29, 2010 If the relays plug into (presumably original fit) sockets, could there be a fault in the socket, or its wiring, (for example a bad earth return somewhere, possibly due to a displaced terminal connector, or a detached connection elsewhere), that might explain the original leisure battery charging failure, the subsequent generator failure, the added wiring, the 6V reading, and the present problem? Apologies! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted March 29, 2010 Share Posted March 29, 2010 Vansearcher I have anoher question. You said when you plug the relays back in the coil coltage dropps to 6 volts and you no longer charge the engine battery. Have you tested this with the engine running, the engine battery charging and 'hot' plugging in the relays? I woud like to know what happens when you connect the relays WITH power being generated from the alternator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vansearcher Posted March 29, 2010 Author Share Posted March 29, 2010 Thanks for your persistence, I have some more information for you. The alternator is "Remanufactured in Poland 2009-08-26 17:15" C631886R. I can send pictures of alternator connections if needed. Amongst the wiring behind the fuse box in the near side bulkhead I have discovered a Grey/Brown cable which had at one time been spliced into. (the relay feed?). However there are no volts at this cable either with the ignition on or with the engine running. Can you discover what this Grey/Brown cable is supposed to supply? The ignition light does come on with the relays unplugged and goes out with the engine started. When I started to investigate this problem I did discover that the relay feed cable was intermittently shorting to ground below the drivers seat. This has now been fixed. The Autosleeper manual wiring diagram shows that the relay feed may (or does?) come from the "Alternator Charge Relay Pickup".Where would this be situated?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted March 29, 2010 Share Posted March 29, 2010 "When I started to investigate this problem I did discover that the relay feed cable was intermittently shorting to ground below the drivers seat. This has now been fixed. " Is this the original cable or the added one by previous owner? "The Autosleeper manual wiring diagram shows that the relay feed may (or does?) come from the "Alternator Charge Relay Pickup".Where would this be situated?" " I would think under he srivers seat along with 12 volts heavy charing cable from engine battery, and a gnd conection. I think it is a light purple cable..possibly. I shalcheck out all you have said in last post later - back to watching Flash Forward on TV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vansearcher Posted March 29, 2010 Author Share Posted March 29, 2010 The current wiring set up from the alternator D terminal to the relays under the drivers seat is as follows:- A length of black covered cable (which has been added by the previous owner) is connected at one end to the D terminal of the alternator and is joined (in the area around the nearside bulkhead) to the original purple cable which feeds the relays. It was this original purple cable which was intermittently shorting at the drivers seat frame area. This is now fixed although the shorting was probably not noticed by previous owner in his attempts to fix the problem of "the leisure battery not charging". When this (black joined to purple) relay feed cable is disconnected from the alternator the alternator behaves normally. The start point of this purple cable may in the past have been as a spliced connection into a Grey/Brown cable in the area of the nearside fusebox because 1. there is evidence of splicing in this G/B cable and 2. the splicing point in the G/B cable is close to where the purple cable has been looped through the bulkhead. Hope this helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted March 30, 2010 Share Posted March 30, 2010 Vansearcher, I have sent you a private Message with my phone number and email addy. I can run through a few things on the phone with you which will be much easier. Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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