3,500 kgs or over?

[david lloyd]

Hi everyone,

 

I know this topic has been covered many times in various threads but finding it is a different matter using search!

 

Can anyone offer a concise summin up of the pros and cons of a 3,500kgs chassis as opposed to uprating to a 3,500+ chassis?

 

I am familiar (and comply) with the licensing requirements but would like to know the advantages or otherwise of uprating the MAM to increase the payload and then be able to make an informed decision.

 

Regards,

David

[terry1956]

hi, if you are planning to drive outside of the UK a lot of roads have a weight limit of 3.5 kgs, so getting to some places will be harder work.

also with new driving regs selling a larger unit maybe harder as less people will have the licence needed to drive over 3.5kgs.

plus points, you can carry more.

terry

[flicka]

Down side of over 3500kg for European travel includes

increased toll road fees (France),

Vignette costs (Austria & Switzerland)

Bridge tolls

Speed limits (in some countries)

 

My main concern would be that if you increase the MAM of any size vehicle, make sure the BRAKES can cope with the extra weight.

Descending an Apline pass is not the time to find out they can't. 8-) :'(

[Brian Kirby]

As your post recognises, there is a difference between buying a motorhome that is plated above 3.5 tonnes, and uprating a 3.5 tonne chassis. 

The main legal issues, in both cases, are whether your driving licence allows you to drive the heavier vehicles, and that you may (in Europe will) be subject to lower speed limits on most roads.  In Europe the lower limits apply to any vehicle plated over 3.5 tonnes, in UK the lower limits apply when the unladen weight of the vehicle is over 3.05 tonnes.  The unladen weight is not on the plate, and can only be safely ascertained by weighing the vehicle on a weighbridge, because all extras/options that have been fitted (as opposed to carried) must be included.  The rate of VED will change, and the V5C must be altered to show a change of class to PHGV.

The main difference between uprating and buying new, lies in the method of uprating.  If the vehicle is already on a "heavy" chassis, but was downplated at manufacture (usually to widen sales appeal for drivers restricted to 3.5 tonnes), all that is needed is a replacement plate reinstating the original chassis limit.  This is basically a "desk" exercise, following which the vehicle will be as practically viable as any other plated at that weight.

Where the chassis itself if limited to 3.5 tonnes, the "usual" method of gaining additional MAM is to re-plate at the combined maximum permissible load for front and rear axles.  This is also a "desk" exercise, will increase MAM to the sum of the axle limits, but may have little practical benefit because both axles will remain at their original limits. 

Most motorhomes hit the individual axle limit before they run out of MAM, and if yours is one of these, re-plating will bring no benefit, but you will still trigger the lower European speed limits.  In terms of practicality, there is good reason why, for all vehicles, the sum of the axle limits exceeds the plated MAM.  This is the near impossibility of managing weight distribution within the vehicle so as to respect both the axle maxima, and the MAM, when approaching the limits.  If your vehicle is "balanced", has a short rear overhang, and has good margins on both axles when fully laden, this route may ring significant benefit for little cost.  If not, think hard, and check thoroughly, before getting it replated.  It will, in any case, be harder to sell at the higher MAM because fewer drivers will have the appropriate driving licence.

In some cases, it is possible to increase the axle limit by installing suspension aids, or other measures, but this needs individual assessment of the vehicle to identify the present limiting factor/s.  This may lie in tyres, wheels, springing, type of axle, brakes etc, so competent automotive engineering assessment is required.  This route is not a "desk" exercise, and may be expensive depending on what it is necessary to do, and how much extra capacity is required.

[david lloyd]

OK - thanks so far..........

 

As I said earlier, the (driver's) licensing requirements are not a problem for me as I retain C1+E on my licence and will not need a medical to retain it for some years yet.

 

The main problem may be insufficient payload. The van is a 2009 Ducato van conversion on the Maxi chassis and is capable of being re-plated to 3900 kgs (I think) without the need for further modifications. I believe the unladen weight (which, as Brian has said, is not easy to verify) may well be below the 3.05 tonne limit for triggering UK speed limits.

 

So far so good.

 

I'm not too concerned about resale either (yet) as the new restrictions on driving over 3500 kg vehicles only came into force some 17 years ago making the average age group affected in the region of 34 - 40 I would think.

 

However, the real nitty gritty for me are the physical driving restrictions such as speed and weight restrictions. Still not too worried about the latter as I have had a large vehcice before and didn't encounter too many weight limited roads that restricted our motorhoming then. Which leaves me with speed restrictions but I am not too up to date on what they are specifically across europe.....

 

If these are significantly lower than the national limits here and in europe I might be concerned but there are never many occasions when I drive above 60 mph anyway. Finally, I read recently of proposals to bring in lane restrictions for vehicles over 3500kg on motorways - do we know yet if this is going to come in?

 

David

[colin]

david lloyd - 2010-04-14 2:20 PM

The main problem may be insufficient payload. The van is a 2009 Ducato van conversion on the Maxi chassis and is capable of being re-plated to 3900 kgs (I think) without the need for further modifications.

 

This is something I have an interest in for different reasons, so this may not be entirely relavent to you.

It appears to me that the 35L3Heavy is a downplated 40L3Heavy, so might(! ) be plated to 4005kg.

The 35L4Heavy and 40L4Heavy are shown as having different kerbside weights, so something else is different with this model.

[Brian Kirby]

david lloyd - 2010-04-14 2:20 PM OK - thanks so far.......... .......... I believe the unladen weight (which, as Brian has said, is not easy to verify) may well be below the 3.05 tonne limit for triggering UK speed limits. ........... David

Not sure it is so much a case of difficult, David, as just having to weigh it.  Unladen means just that, with basically nothing in it apart from its fixtures.  It excludes fuel, tools, spare wheel, water, gas cylinders, habitation battery and just about anything else you can think of.  However, if you'd really need to take all that lot out to get it below 3050Kg, you may be straying into "smart a**e" territory if challenged by the fuzz.  I'd therefore be a bit inclined to weigh it with items of which you know the weight still on board, and if it then comes in below 3050Kg you can be certain that in true unladen state it will be comfortably below, and by roughly how much.  Keep the ticket in the van as evidence, it should show the date and reg no as well as the weight.  Basically, you can't make a vehicle lighter than "unladen", so you can't cheat, and any any changes can only be upward.  So the ticket should be acceptable.  Otherwise, especially if borderline, just assume you may be regarded as over 3050Kg, and drive accordingly.

So far as speed limits are concerned, there is no such place as Europe and each state has its own variants.  Rough rule of thumb, if over 3.5 tonnes, would be where the limit is 90KPH you will be restricted to 80KPH, for 110KPH - 100KPH and for 130KPH - 120KPH.  However, there are exceptions and it is essential to check country by country.  For example, I think you may be banned from the left hand lane at certain times and on certain autobahnen in Germany, and I believe there may also be an 80Kph blanket speed restriction on the autobahnen.  In Portugal you may be limited to 70/80KPH on two lane roads, and 90KPH on motorways.  The above are from the Caravan Club Caravan Europe 2010 guides, but I think you would be wise to check with the countries' UK embassies direct, rather than relying on anything of a more general nature.

[Basil]

Brian Kirby - 2010-04-14 1:21 PM

.................Where the chassis itself if limited to 3.5 tonnes, the "usual" method of gaining additional MAM is to re-plate at the combined maximum permissible load for front and rear axles.  This is also a "desk" exercise, will increase MAM to the sum of the axle limits, but may have little practical benefit because both axles will remain at their original limits. 

Most motorhomes hit the individual axle limit before they run out of MAM, and if yours is one of these, re-plating will bring no benefit, but you will still trigger the lower European speed limits.  In terms of practicality, there is good reason why, for all vehicles, the sum of the axle limits exceeds the plated MAM.................  p>

Whilst I accept Brian has put 'usual' this is not necessarily so. I too thought this to be the case but when I looked into uprating ours, which I have now completed, I was surprised to find that both the axle weights were able to be uprated as well as the MAM and it was completely a paper exercise that has given me an extra 300kgs payload. I understand from the convertors that surprisingly this is not actually unusual.Bas

[Basil]

david lloyd - 2010-04-14 2:20 PM

 

..........Finally, I read recently of proposals to bring in lane restrictions for vehicles over 3500kg on motorways - do we know yet if this is going to come in?

 

David

 

My understanding from DVLA is that the consultative document has now been concluded and there is a recommendation that it is to be introduced to bring the UK in line with EU Directive that has been ratified and so will probably be introduced Europe wide and will occur sometime this year.

Don't know whether the forthcoming election will change or stop any of that, but assuming it doesn't, it will basically shift the criteria for lower speed limits and restrictions on lane use to MAM i.e. under 3500kgs will be as per cars and from 3501kgs will be restricted. IMO this makes a much more sensible and easily understood change over point as messing about trying to find your actual unladen weight is a bit daft.

 

Bas

[Andy_C]

The consultation is still open, the closing date is 27 April 2010. See: http://www.dft.gov.uk/consultations/open/2010-06/

 

Andy

[Brian Kirby]

Basil - 2010-04-15 10:58 AM ..........when I looked into uprating ours, which I have now completed, I was surprised to find that both the axle weights were able to be uprated as well as the MAM and it was completely a paper exercise that has given me an extra 300kgs payload. I understand from the converters that surprisingly this is not actually unusual. Bas

Bas

It may be of interest to others with similar intentions to know what base vehicle you are referring to.  They may wish to follow your example as it seems to have been fairly straightforward.  Can you also say who did the re-plating job for you?

[Basil]

Brian Kirby - 2010-04-15 7:07 PM

Bas

It may be of interest to others with similar intentions to know what base vehicle you are referring to.  They may wish to follow your example as it seems to have been fairly straightforward.  Can you also say who did the re-plating job for you?

Yes certainly, I did not state on this occasion as I had already put the details on a previous thread, but it is as follows.The vehicle is a Peugeot Boxer Mk1 of 1998 vintage (it is the same for Fiat Ducato though their chassis numbering is different) the chassis is a 320 LWB. The origional figures wereAxle 1 1650kgsAxle 2 1750kgsMAM (MLW) 3200kgsMax Payload 614kgsThe new figures areAxle 1 1750kgsAxle 2 1900kgsGVM (MAM) 3500kgsMax Payload 914kgsThe 'exercise' was carried out by SvTech, seehttp://www.svtech.co.uk(I dealt with Steve Heap) who provided an uprated Convertors Plate and the relevent paperwork. It was not an inexpensive exercise at £282 but worth it to me for peace of mind and certainly cheaper than a fine, especially as I knew I was within 30 kgs of my Maximum Laden Weight.Bas

[Clive]

The upside of over 3500 kg is more payload. Probably the majority of coachbuilts on 3500 KG chassis on their annual main tour will be overweight.

Most 3500 KG base vehicles can be plated up to 3850 kg without any physical changes. But check your driving license and the speed limits.

 

C.

 

 

 

[Basil]

Andy_C - 2010-04-15 6:22 PM

 

The consultation is still open, the closing date is 27 April 2010. See: http://www.dft.gov.uk/consultations/open/2010-06/

 

Andy

 

Thats interesting as during a conversation with the DVLA when changing my vehicle weights, the question of speed limits arose (as I also considered raising my plated weight to 3750kgs with suspension modifications) and they were quite explicit that the new rules were coming in late in the year!

Makes you (well me anyway) wonder how much the consultation process is taken into account!!

 

Bas

[Brock]

Use the "So what" methodology to decide what is right for you.My van weighs less than 3500kg. So what? I will have to leave something behind. So what? I won't be able to cycle if I leave the bikes behind. So what? I'll have to walk. So what? I'll have to remember to pack the hiking boots.

 

Or my van weighs more than 3500kgs. So what? I will have a large loading margin. So what? I'll be able to bring home more wine from Europe. So what? I won't have to drink it all on holiday. So what? I'll remember more about my holiday as I will be sober.

 

These are tongue in cheek examples but the idea of asking yourself, "So what" will enable you to work through the information you have and decide on how it affects you.

 

 

[Andy_C]

Basil - 2010-04-17 8:23 PM

 

Andy_C - 2010-04-15 6:22 PM

 

The consultation is still open, the closing date is 27 April 2010. See: http://www.dft.gov.uk/consultations/open/2010-06/

 

Andy

 

Thats interesting as during a conversation with the DVLA when changing my vehicle weights, the question of speed limits arose (as I also considered raising my plated weight to 3750kgs with suspension modifications) and they were quite explicit that the new rules were coming in late in the year!

Makes you (well me anyway) wonder how much the consultation process is taken into account!!

 

Bas

I tend to be somewhat cynical about these 'consultations' too. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see the introduction of the suggested new rules, but it may be that the consultation will result in some adjustment at the edges of legislation that is, effectively, aimed at commercial vehicles. At the very least it might result in improved drafting so that we don't end up with legislation that refers to 'goods' vehicles but which actually applies to 'leisure' vehicles as well.

 

Andy

[Brian Kirby]

Sorry for going OT, but if you really want to see how the consultations work, try tracking down a few that have completed, and look at the submissions received and the conclusions drawn.  It is a bit tedious, but very illuminating.  My conclusion is that they are somewhere between rogues' charter, and farce!

The consultations are run by the individual ministries; there is no standard format for the consultation, no "yes", "no", "maybe" tick box pro forma for respondents to complete, and no set or suggested format for responses.  There is no general publicity concerning the consultations (though clearly, certain "interested" bodies are primed as to what to expect), and no centralised registry of consultations - each ministry having its own, but with no overall consistency in where, or how, they are to be found.

Responses thus vary between single, brief, e-mailed paragraphs, to virtual dissertations on many sheets of A4 paper from academic institutions.  They may be submitted by literally anyone, ranging from the odd member of Joe Public, to blatantly self-interested trade, professional, or industry pressure groups.  Because there is no set format, it is almost impossible to set accurate scoring criteria.  I do not remember reading anything stating how responses to various consultations were scored.  All that seems to have been achieved that some poor soul sat down and read the lot - which in some case was several hundred submissions - then decide whether they are, on balance, in favour or against.  Doubtless this exercise was repeated along the line, because it would be very unusual for a single individual to be trusted to get a "sound" answer.  Then, a result is declared.

If you wished to challenge the result, you would have to read the lot yourself (they are all there on the websites, if you so chose), invent a scoring system (possibly weighted to counter pressure group bias), and then tell the relevant ministry you think they have drawn the wrong conclusion.  Then you would have weeks of exchanged correspondence to look forward to, as they questioned your methodology and picked holes in your logic.  At the end, both sides would have to agree to disagree and the decision would remain unaltered.

On this basis, you could ask almost any question you liked, and produce, from the responses, almost any conclusion you wished for, and virtually no-one, short of a serious market research institute, a university, or a well endowed industry research institute, could possibly challenge the outcome.  IMO, that make the lot a complete and utter farce!  Thus, are we governed!  :-(

[david lloyd]

All very true Brian,

 

However, I did take the opportunity to e-mail my response along the lines that to exclude vehicles designated as motor caravans would not significantly affect the calculated cost benefits given as a prime reason for the changes due to the relatively low number and annual mileage of such vehicles.

 

Second that one issue not taken into account in the 'Impact Assessment' supporting the proposal was that it would add more traffic to lanes one and two of motorways that are presently congested by the effects of the very same legislation governing the speed of HGV's over 7500kgs and causing them to habitually try overtaking manouvres that take several miles to complete due to the marginal differences in their speed limiters.

 

I may not get a reply but I live in the hope that soemone at the DFT will at least know there is someone 'out there' in the real world.

 

David

[Porky]

Having replated from 3500 to 3850 and spent the last 5 months in Spain (south) I can confirm that the increase in payload is INVALUABLE. It certianly outways the additional restrictions/requirements(lol)

 

Roy Fuller

[david lloyd]

david lloyd - 2010-04-18 5:23 PM

 

All very true Brian,

 

However, I did take the opportunity to e-mail my response along the lines that to exclude vehicles designated as motor caravans would not significantly affect the calculated cost benefits given as a prime reason for the changes due to the relatively low number and annual mileage of such vehicles.

 

Second that one issue not taken into account in the 'Impact Assessment' supporting the proposal was that it would add more traffic to lanes one and two of motorways that are presently congested by the effects of the very same legislation governing the speed of HGV's over 7500kgs and causing them to habitually try overtaking manouvres that take several miles to complete due to the marginal differences in their speed limiters.

 

I may not get a reply but I live in the hope that soemone at the DFT will at least know there is someone 'out there' in the real world.

 

David

 

Well, I can confirm that I did get a reply from a very nice lady at the DfT - along the lines of:-

 

'thank you for your comments.........they will be put with the other responses and and given further consideration to determine if the proposals need to be amended.......'

 

She goes on to say that DfT will be posting responses to the comments on its website once they have collated and fully considered them all. I have had a quick look and there are no resposes yet to the consutation.

 

David

 

 

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

Little matter of an election intervening, no doubt!  We shall see.  :-)

[flicka]

For Transit owners,

In relation to another thread I was looking at spec for a Geist motorhome

(http://www.geistforlife.com/spirit598.php)

One of the options available (Customise tab) is uprating the 3500kg chassis MAM.

"Ford Transit weight upgrade plate to 3850kg £62.00 "

 

As there are not other options relating to the vehicle weight, it appears to be a "plate" only excercise on the Transit based on this cost.

[Vernon B]

Brock - 2010-04-17 10:27 PM

 

Use the "So what" methodology to decide what is right for you.My van weighs less than 3500kg. So what? I will have to leave something behind. So what? I won't be able to cycle if I leave the bikes behind. So what? I'll have to walk. So what? I'll have to remember to pack the hiking boots.

 

Or my van weighs more than 3500kgs. So what? I will have a large loading margin. So what? I'll be able to bring home more wine from Europe. So what? I won't have to drink it all on holiday. So what? I'll remember more about my holiday as I will be sober.

 

These are tongue in cheek examples but the idea of asking yourself, "So what" will enable you to work through the information you have and decide on how it affects you.

 

 

And here's another example Brock

 

My 'vans over 3.5t So what? I'm paying 50% more on French Toll Roads. So what? I'll use N roads to save money? So what? I'm producing more CO2 and creating more traffic congestion. So what? It goes to show we have complete morons making these rules!

 

V

[Mountain_Biker]

I have been advised that my van can be uprated above 3500kg, but they want me to take my plate off, post it to them with a fee of course. What happens though if I go abroad in the meantime and get stopped? Do I need a certificate or something to show the gendarme?

 

I assume it is permisable for me to pop rivet the new plate on? :-S

[Mountain_Biker]

Anyone got comments on my query please??

 

I have been advised that my van can be uprated above 3500kg, but they want me to take my plate off, post it to them with a fee of course. What happens though if I go abroad in the meantime and get stopped? Do I need a certificate or something to show the gendarme?

 

I assume it is permisable for me to pop rivet the new plate on?