Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen transmission defect (6)

[Mel B]

Seeing as the last thread seems to have stuck, I've started this new one to enable people to continue on with the saga ....

 

Below is a link to the last thread (no 5) for anyone who wants to read the previous posts.

 

Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen transmission defect (5)

[colin]

So here we are then the sixth incarnation of this thread and still not a 100% solution to the problem.

Back in the early days of the problem I postulated that there would have to be at least a change in gearbox if not engine to solve this. I then guessed that using a combination of Maxi gearbox and smaller wheels would have to be considered (got a bit of stick for that one I recall).

Since then I've been able to give a bit more thought to the matter and also compare the Sevel to other vans, I will now be gambling my money on a Maxi van, fingers crossed because I don't believe there will be a 100% solution on this model, and I don't intend waiting for the next model.

[Way2Go]

Just got my 2007 Fiat back from the local Fiat dealership.

They have apparently carried out this mod for about 8 people who are "all pleased with the outcome".

They have changed the engine mounts and installed a new heavy duty clutch and have done a load of stuff to the gearbox including new gearing and a new shaft.

They reackon the job would have cost about £2,000.

W2G

[colin weston]

I can confirm that the number on my new gearbox (Maxi unit?) is 20GP45 6435929 2.91 No idea what this means but my original unit was 20GP05 6085755 2,91. However, it would seem that the 20GP45 vs 20GP05 is the specification difference. Having carried out further tests it appears that reverse gear is the same ratio as first, within the limits of experimental error, giving about 6mph/1000rpm. Can anyone supply the equivalent figures for an unmodified 2.2l 6-speed Peugeot GVW 3500kg and one that has been reworked with the lower reverse gear. Maybe we can start to fill in some of our knowledge gaps. Going to Scotland now for 2 weeks. Hope the weather lasts!

[gadjo]

Just as a matter of interest does any one know what the difference between the maxi chassis engine etc to other vans is, as the school of thought on this topic earlier was that there was no difference at all??? :-S

[rolandrat]

just as a matter of interest my 3ltr manual at 2000 revs indicates 60 mph, a friend of mine with the earlier 2.8 had a higher top gear ratio fitted and at 2000 revs would indicate 70 mph which saves him a considerable amount of money in fuel. He has to change down occasionally on steep hills but it doesn't matter.

[euroserv]

Hello,

 

First of all there is no difference whatsoever between 30,33,35 and Maxi versions of any of the engines.

 

Second there is a difference in the differential of the maxi versions that is designed to counter the difference in wheel size, (Maxi uses 16" wheels and all the others use 15") and give an over-all slightly shorter final drive ratio. This means that Maxi versions will normally rev a little bit higher for a given speed than non-maxi.

 

I have an original Maxi 2.3 6 speed gearbox in bits at the moment if anyone wants to know anything in particular about it. For the record it has not juddered itself to pieces but has been damaged because someone continued to drive it with a knackered clutch at 135,000 miles and it has somehow limped to 155,000 with a worn synchro between 5th and 6th gear, and a rattle when idling.

 

Neither of our local dealers have ever done any repairs to X250 boxes (though both have carried out mods to campers) so we have been comparing notes on this one and have had to manufacture some new tools and jigs in order to do the job properly, along with getting hold of some procedure notes from Fiat.

 

One observation I should share is that while the gearbox is very similar to the old 2.8 5 speed, it does not have the 5th gear or any other ouside the main box any more, so while any traditional problems with that arrangement have been removed, 5th and 6th gear are now inside the casing which will make it much more difficult to repair inevitable minor problems with top gears and synchros. I think I liked the old arrangement better.

 

Nick

[webbocj]

nick.

Way back in Nov., I think, I reported on this thread of a noise(rumble/rattle) from my gearbox following Fiats mod. 2. Fiat ignored my concern and even Andy and yourself suggested it was only the "idling gears" and not to be too worried(my words), are we talking of a similar outcome!!

chris

[euroserv]

No.

 

Obviously I did not hear what you heard back then, but this is a distinct rattle that sounds like a broken part and is not always present. It can be idling for 10 minutes quietly then suddenly start a death like rattle so bad you switch the engine off straight away.

 

I suspect this is not what you heard.

 

Nick

[Symbol Owner]

Bump.

[bobalobs]

Where is everyone on this thread? Is everyone satisfied, bored with the topic or just given up!?

Well here is a bit of information to possibly stir a response if you are not all at Peterborough buying new vans!

At the end of last year we roadtested a 2.3 litre fiat fitted with the modified gearbox "from birth". We noted the chassis number and that it had been shipped from Italy in September. We then ordered the same model enginewise but with an unusual spec in other respects to reduce the chance of receiving a pre modified box van. The van arrived in UK in March and we are due to collect the converted vehicle at the beginning of May. The chassis number of our van indicates that Fiat have sold 47750 vans in approx 6 months if the numbers are consecutive. Whether the 3 litre is included in this figure is not known and there are in addition Peugeot and Citreon sales but in a time of global recession there are still many purchasers despite bad press.

[euroserv]

Hell, I am still awake!

 

I would not read too much into chassis numbers. They are issued in blocks of, say 10,000 so that significant changes can be detected by the experts but they are rarely used in order. We had 10 vans built in March 2007 to a very specific specification, but all exactly the same. They all arrived in the UK in the same week, but the chassis numbers could not be less alike!

 

Peugeot and Citroen have thir own entirely different chassis number system.

 

If everyone is now happy, I am happy too but this thread is important to make sure that prospective purchasers of Sevel X250 based campers are aware that they need to be cautious. If you are buying new and even after testing that the van goes backwards up an incline without juddering itself to pieces; later on if you have any problems you must remember that you have purchased this van from the dealer and not the manufacturer of the base vehicle. Get them to sort it out!

 

If you are considering buying a used van, then you will have to be very thorough in your testing, particularly if the van is out of warranty.

 

I would recommend that you insist that any used vehicle that you are interested in has been modified by Fiat or Peugeot and demand to see documentation to prove it. If the dealer fobs you off then be strong and walk away. A great many dealers are still denying all knowledge of the problem.

 

Read this thread in all of it's 6 versions. It goes back over 2 years and documents the heartache of a great many owners. Some have had their problems fixed to their satisfaction. Some have never experienced the problem and some are still fighting against a manufacturer that will not admit that there is a problem at all.

 

Above all; be careful. As you will read; you are about to spend an awful lot of money and the experience should be full of joy, certainly not regret.

 

Nick

[bobalobs]

Nick.

Well I knew someone would be working trying to keep this country afloat rather than going to Peterborough to support the Italian export trade!!

[hallii]

I have to say that without this forum and this (and the other) topics regarding the Fiat/Peugeot gearbox issues I would probably bought a motorhome based on one of those.

 

Having spent many hours over more than 12 months we did decide that a Chausonne Flash 04 would do the job, but before ordering a new one my simple request to the dealer was that I be provided with the VIN number and information as to when the gearboxes had changed to the new one. Either date or VIN number.

 

Nothing being forthcoming I then asked Peugeot. Still nothing.

 

It appears that they don't know or are not telling.

 

So I have bought a Hymer 522 based on the Ford. It's not new but it's not on a Fiat/Pug chassis either.

 

So if you are monitoring these posts Fiat and Peugeot, and I suspect they are, you have lost a sale. I don't suppose it matters a lot, one base vehicle is not going to affect the sales figures much.

 

But why Oh why are so many converters sticking with them?

 

They must have noticed the adverse comments and maybe the odd disgruntled customer.

 

Do they not care?

 

Maybe they hope it will all go away, a bit like the rotting Alfa or Fiat cars.

 

But some of us have very long memories, we won't forget, and we will keep telling everyone, won't we?

 

Hallii

[colin]

I'm sure Andy will be pleased to know that today by inferance a rep blamed his driving for wreaking gearboxs :-S

[Rayjsj]

colin - 2010-04-25 7:31 PM

 

I'm sure Andy will be pleased to know that today by inferance a rep blamed his driving for wreaking gearboxs :-S

 

I'm quite sure that this fault will be described as 'Driver Error', 'Only a few models (and NOT this one,sir)' an 'Urban Myth' 'Never happened' Etc.,Etc., But it DID. and i know that for years to come it will be causing motorhome owners much heartache and many questions to forums.

Reverse gear Far too high for a commercial vehicle. Don't buy them..... Simples. *-)

[tof]

I have had all the mods done on my x250 Maxi (Nov 08) and it still judders. Not as much as it did and the lower gear helps tone down the smell of the clutch!

 

I have done 27,000 miles and I am just praying that I don't meet a situation that requires extreme reversing up hill. The 'van is superb in all other ways but I would would be very careful if buying a new one if info about a reformed gearbox was not forthcoming from a dealer.

 

Yes the aftercare was polite, immediate and expensive (for Fiat) but not a cure.

 

The judder is not like any judder I have come across on any other vehicle, which leads me to think that there is a cure but the teccies just haven't put their fingers on it.

 

Tof

[Geoff Tuckley]

Hello, Folks,

May I begin by saying that I am prepared to take all of the flak and the "I told you sos"

I posted a while ago on this forum saying that FIAT had told me to take my 2.2 Motorhome to their main agent in my area for the second time in order to have another "Technical Assessment". The agent told me this was promising as they were sending another report to FIAT saying that my motorhome has the infernal judder. I was confident they were going to act.

this was about 3 weeks ago. I took it today for its 12 month service and, of course asked if they had heard from FIAT as they told me they had expected to? They said "Yes, FIAT again say there is nothing wrong with it."

How can it be that after I told FIAT of the problem, they asked their agent to do an assessment during which I was present. They then ask for a further Technical Assessment from the same agent and in both of these the agent says that the vehicle judders in reverse. They then tell their appointed agent to tell me there is nothing wrong with the vehicle.

Just feel like there is nowhere to turn. I shall phone them up in Italy tomorrow and offer to take the vehicle anywhere they wish for testing, but I don't think I should hold my breath. . .

Let me add that the warrantee ends on the last day of this month!

[Brian Kirby]

I think you should write to Fiat UK, recording both your dissatisfaction with the information you have been given, and your dissatisfaction with the van's reversing performance.  I think you should try to get the name of the most senior customer services manager, preferably the responsible director, and address the letter to him/her.  I would also ask them to state their reasons for dismissing both reports from their agent, as you understand both support your contention that the vehicle suffers severe vibration, or judder, when being reversed.  I would emphasise that presenting your vehicle to their agent is both expensive, and consumes a considerable amount of your time, and you would expect at the very least a reasoned response from them, as a minimal courtesy.  I would add that, under the circumstances, to summarily reject the agent's reports without explanation is in contravention of the spirit and (but check this bit!) more importantly, wording, of their warranty.  Express great disappointment that they not meeting their obligations in respect of their warranty in a fair and reasonable manner. 

I do not think phoning Italy, at this juncture, is necessarily your best shot.

[Mel B]

Hallii - are you thinking of the Chausson Welcome Ws rather than the Chausson Flash 04? The Welcome WS is built on the Fiat, the Flash 04 is most definitely a Ford (which is why we chose it!). They are both extremely similar layouts but with quite a price difference apart from the base vehicle.

[AndyStothert]

What the dissatisfied owners of the 2.2 litre 5 speed Fiats are possibly not aware of is that Peugeot have been fitting a similar kit of parts to the 5 speed versions as they (and Fiat) have been putting in the 6 speed vans.

And what is indisputable is that the 5 speed 2.2 litre Fiat and the 5 speed 2.2 litre Peugeot are identical mechanically.

So if Peugoeot admit there is a problem and are attempting to fix them (though not with rampant success it's got to be said) then Fiat's continuing assertion that there is no fault with their 5 speed version is a strange one.

However at some stage we are all going to just accept that what we have, and use it carefully and within its limitations.

I think that we are fairly certain that anything (2.2 and 2.3 litre versions) now coming out of the Sevel factory, whilst not perfect in steep places, seems not to be eating its way through either clutch or gearbox on steep hills in reverse, so the main thrust must be to warn off potential buyers from buying an unmodified vehicle. Or at least letting them know the risks.

It would help if Fiat and Peugeot would clarify what is now being produced, since when, and release some technical information including accurate gear ratios, but it seems that they are determined not to supply this information.

All the other manufacturers do, so why not Fiat and Peugeot?

I've looked at all sorts of ways of putting the necessary information about the modifications on the web somehow, but all of them seem to need regular intervention to keep their effectiveness via Google functioning.

We are now off for the summer (which may have been last week) so we'll be mostly nowhere near a computer for about 3 months.

 

[Sonofagun]

Picked up my van from my local Fiat Professional dealer today after having a minor oil leak fixed uner warrenty. While talking to the mechanic he mentioned that the 2.3 Fiat engine was being replaced next year by a 2.4 Ford unit. If true I hope it comes with a Ford gearbox.

[Geoff Tuckley]

Thanks, Brian and Andy Stothert,

That is the road I shall go down although I shall have to somehow find the name of someone senior in FIAT.

I realise that I am by no means on my own in these circumstances but really feel let down. We sold a beautifull boat upon retirement to buy this, our first, motorhome in order to be able to get to know Europe in more detail. We have taken to motorhoming like fish to water and thoroughly enjoy our trips both at home and abroad. Just so disapointed that at this stage in life we have what may be an ongoing problem with our pride and joy.

I must add though, that most problems can be brought into context by the good people who use this forum as a read through the various threads will show.

Thanks again

 

[euroserv]

Sonofagun,

 

Whoever told you that is completely wrong, and also short of grey matter. The 2.4 Ford unit is only for RWD applications. The 2.3 and 3.0 FPT (Iveco) engines are confirmed for at least the next 3 years.

 

Nick

[Colin Leake]

I have just returned from our first tour of the season. Of twelve owners I asked about reversing problems four initially had experienced them. A fifth having gone away and tried his came back saying he to had a problem making it five out of twelve. The first four had experienced the problem in "normal usage". Three had had the full repairs done and in all cases this worked for "normal usage" One of those had been told it was OK to go abroad with the problem and have it fixed on his return. He suffered a total gearbox failure in Portugal! I spoke to three owners of very new motorhomes. None had tested for the problem but none had experienced it in normal use.

 

One chap in whom I would have little faith told me for certain that Fiat were going to use a new five cylinder (I assume he meant Euro Five) engine developed in partnership with Ford and with a Ford Gearbox. I know Fiat have understandably denied this (they would obviously for commercial reasons) but given that this is the second time I have heard this it does make you wonder if there is any truth in it.

 

Changing the subject when I left our last site on then Isle of White I left behind a proud owner of a new Autotrail with a puncture and no spare wheel wondering how he was going to get it repaired and still catch a ferry! About time the converters stopped this stupid practice of not providing a spare wheel.