Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen transmission defect (6)

[Rayjsj]

I believe that the Comfortmatic uses a 'Dual Mass' flywheel, i think that the springs in the flywheel lose their tension if subjected to intense heat.

Seems strange replacing a clutch in vehicle with an Automatic gearbox.

At least Fiat can't blame the drivers Technique for the failure .

Good to see they replaced it under warranty without a hitch, what would they have done if the warranty had expired ? a potential problem for second hand buyers. Ray

[euroserv]

For the record the clutch and flywheel used in manual and comfort-matic 3.0L Ducato's are identical. The only engine in the Ducato X250 range that does not use a Dual Mass Flywheel is the 2.3

 

Our vans can cover 5000 miles in the first month on the road, so any manufacturing defects will show up much sooner. We have had a couple of early clutch failures on 2.3's and have only had gearbox problems on vans that have covered over 120,000 (HARD) miles. EXCEPT for a recently self destructed gearbox on a 3.0 manual which although outside 2 year warranty is being repaired for free because the mileage is under 40,000 Incidentally, the clutch and flywheel in this van are in good condition.

 

I do not believe that the clutches and flywheels fitted to the X250 are any more or less likely to cause problems in the future than any other make of vehicle. All manufacturers have issues; most show up early in the life of the vehicle.

 

That said, it is high time Fiat sorted the reverse gear ratio out. Four years is just too long.

 

Nick

[colin]

I've noticed just lately FedEx are using Merc's, I'm sure before they where using Fiats, have to find out why.

[flicka]

colin - 2010-08-09 8:15 PM

 

I've noticed just lately FedEx are using Merc's, I'm sure before they where using Fiats, have to find out why.

 

Hi Colin

The Merc's are LPG used in London

- extract from Fedex website:-

FedEx’s use of hybrid-electric vehicles in Europe plays an increasingly important part in our continuing drive for greater efficiencies. For example, in France we have more than 320 liquefied petroleum gas and electric-powered support units in use at the Roissy Charles de Gaulle hub in Paris; we operate both IVECO hybrid-electric and LPG vans in Milan, Turin, Vicenza and Malpensa area in Italy; and we recently started using 10 state-of-the-art Modec electric commercial vehicles in the UK alongside 38 liquefied petroleum gas Mercedes Sprinter vehicles for use in the greater London metropolitan area. Our couriers in big, congested city centres such as London also deliver many packages by bicycle or on foot.

 

Worldwide our hybrid-electric fleet has now logged more than four million miles of service since being introduced in 2004. Use of such vehicles in place of standard vehicles has reduced our fuel consumption by 44% and our carbon dioxide emissions by 75% - the equivalent of removing 279 cars from the road annually. An added benefit of the conversion programme has also been an extension in the working life of our vehicles, thereby helping us to eliminate waste production and create and enhance a reduce-and-reuse philosophy.

 

In addition to using hybrid vehicles we also always look to increase vehicle fuel efficiency and reduce emissions in our fleet by:

 

carefully optimising our delivery routes and cycles, and using smaller, more fuel efficient sprinter vans whenever possible.

 

 

operating a large and increasing number of electric and alternative-fuel support vehicles worldwide, including more than 500 forklifts and 1,600 ground equipment units at airports.

 

[Symbol Owner]

Just before this all-important 'thread' drops off the end of the page.....

 

I posted my first comments on this forum because, as a 'fan' of Auto-sleepers Panel Van Conversions, I was very concerned that, with the exception of their VW 'Topaz' model, A.S. had, by deleting their long-running ( and much-loved) 'Duetto' (on the Ford Transit ) restricted customer choice to a range of Peugeot 'vans on the X2/50 'judder' base.

I am even more 'miffed' to find that the excellent Adria Van M, 0n its Renault chassis, which we looked at with great approval, just before it disappeared off the forecourt of my local dealer (Webb's of warminster) in double-quick time a few weeks ago, appears also to have been deleted from their current range, their PVC's now only being on a Fiat chassis. I suppose that it might be possible that Adria will re-instate it on the newly- introduced Renault Master base, but I am not holding my breath!

 

What is it about the van converters and their dealers that they are so in thrall to the Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen 'Judderbase' -- i.e. the X2/50 'Seval' chassis? Even the classy ( and expensive) Concorde is on the Citroen Jumper/Relay! I understand that these vans were supposed to have been designed with camper vans/motor homes in mind -- being pretty much 'state-of -the-art' in many respects, but pleeese (!) in the light of their well-reported troubles -- which still don't appear to have been properly 'fixed' (and, in the case of the 3 litre Fiats, not even recognised by the maker) can we have some choice?

 

More in desperation than hope,

 

Colin.

[andy mccord]

euroserv - 2010-07-20 2:31 PM

 

Andy,

 

If the engine is rattling that could be any one of a number of unpleasant things but if the sound is coming from the gearbox; my comments are valid.

 

Nick

 

Took the van back to walton summit trucks yesterday Nick for its service, tried pushing the clutch pedal in whilst on tickover, rattle stops, this van has done approx 2k since full lower ratio mod (total 6K) There conclusion was release bearing has failed, box out again, thankfully at fiat's cost

 

Regards

Andy

[Symbol Owner]

Bump

[Tomo3090]

I think you're question's an easy one to answer. It's cost. It must be. Fiat must virtually give them away because they are producing such large numbers and the other manufacturers can't compete with them. Plus it IS a very comfy ride and is one of the nicest vehicles I've ever driven. I never feel tired after driving it.

[Symbol Owner]

Thanks for that Tomo,

 

Yes, I suppose that's what it really boils down to (as do most things in life) --- filthy lucre! A long time ago on this thread Brian Kirby surmised that the converters must be 'in league' with Fiat and the PSA group -- and, sage that he is, he is probably right -- but those of us out here that are unwilling to take the risk involved with investing our cash in these defective X2/50 Seval vehicles are still going to wait until the others catch up!

 

Cheers,

 

Colin.

 

P.s. this thread seems to be going slow again.

[Rayjsj]

Colin,

I have just 'taken the plunge' and bought a van. We have just sold a property, So, we COULD have bought a brand new one, but after going to the NEC last Autumn and coming away very disapointed with both the quality of finish, AND the fact that 95% were mounted on Sevel X250 chassis's. we have bought a Second-Hand one. I wanted a Renault/Ford or Mercedes based one, but the wife based her choices purely on layout and quality of internal fittings etc., and we ended up with a compromise

We got an Autocruise Starburst on a Pre-X250 chassis. it is slightly dated (vehicle-wise) but was virtually 'Sorted' after 13 years of production

if you discount the 'draughty cab doors' and lack of Airbag and ABS.

My Point of all this; If manufacturer's gave a choice of Vehicle converted on, We WOULD have bought a NEW one. IF Fiat had come clean and issued a recall and fixed ALL of the faulty Vans that juddered, without owners having to fight to get them fixed. Likewise, we would have bought a new one. BUT THEY DIDN'T ! (apologies for shouting, but Fiat appear to be DEAF.) rant over. Hope owners of 3 litre manual vans get some joy soon. Ray *-)

[Melvin]

We would like to change our 2008 Autotrail Cheynne 660 for a new larger Autotrail, however, Autotrail only use Fiat so there is another lost sale.

[Symbol Owner]

Thanks for the 'rant' Ray -- with which I heartily agree!

This is in haste as we're off to Scotland for 3 weeks tomorrow -- but there is interesting news of a new venture in this month's 'Which Motorcaravan' -- a series of 'vans on the new Renault chassis by a firm called Bentley -- to be launched at the NEC in October -- might go to the Shepton Mallett show to 'crawl over' any specimens that are on show!

 

Happy times in your new Pride & Joy!

 

Cheers,

 

Colin.

 

P.S. A 'High Quality' product is promised by the Bentley company on their website:- www.bentleymotorhomes .co.uk

[Derek Uzzell]

Symbol Owner - 2010-08-19 4:56 PM

 

Thanks for the 'rant' Ray -- with which I heartily agree!

This is in haste as we're off to Scotland for 3 weeks tomorrow -- but there is interesting news of a new venture in this month's 'Which Motorcaravan' -- a series of 'vans on the new Renault chassis by a firm called Bentley -- to be launched at the NEC in October -- might go to the Shepton Mallett show to 'crawl over' any specimens that are on show!

 

Happy times in your new Pride & Joy!

 

Cheers,

 

Colin.

 

P.S. A 'High Quality' product is promised by the Bentley company on their website:- www.bentleymotorhomes .co.uk

 

The website photos of the Bentley motorhome rear styling strongly suggest that the company will be using the type of Hella light that has been criticised in the past for water 'ingress'.

 

I've got them on my Hobby and water does indeed appear on the inside of the lenses. I'm not certain the water actually enters the light itself (though the lens sealing arrangement is hardly brilliant) - I'm more minded to believe it's due to condensation forming on the inside of the lens and the water being unable to drain out easily. (This view is backed by the fact that the clear lenses seem to be much more prone to water build-up than the coloured ones.) Whatever the root cause, after a while algae grows on the lenses' inner surfaces and the only way to clean it off is by removing the lenses.

 

My Hobby has 10 (Yes, that's TEN!) of these pesky Hella light units on its rear end, and as you need to a) have the retention screws pretty tight to get a proper seal but b) not so tight that you strip the threads in the lights' plastic housings, the cleaning task is not one I much relish.

 

Thought you'd all like to know that!!

 

(Incidentally, did anything come of the idea to set up a website about the X/250 situation?)

[rolandrat]

Melvin - 2010-08-19 12:43 PM

 

We would like to change our 2008 Autotrail Cheynne 660 for a new larger Autotrail, however, Autotrail only use Fiat so there is another lost sale.

 

Melvin, Have you ever got behind the wheel of a 3ltr X250 and taken it for a drive because if you haven't you don't know what you are missing. Don't take any notice of all the negative claptrap you read on here because a lot of it is coming from people who have never owned one. Even the 2.3ltr cannot be compared with it. If you get the opportunity to have a drive in one do it and your view will change.

Rolandrat

[rolandrat]

Melvin - 2010-08-19 12:43 PM

 

We would like to change our 2008 Autotrail Cheynne 660 for a new larger Autotrail, however, Autotrail only use Fiat so there is another lost sale.

 

Melvin, Have you ever got behind the wheel of a 3ltr X250 and taken it for a drive because if you haven't you don't know what you are missing. Don't take any notice of all the negative claptrap you read on here because a lot of it is coming from people who have never owned one. Even the 2.3ltr cannot be compared with it. If you get the opportunity to have a drive in one do it and your view will change.

Rolandrat

[Melvin]

Rolandrat,

 

I am one of the many poor soles with a duff gearbox, despite the bodged atempts at a repair. So no, even though I like the Autotrails, I am not in the market for another Fiat.

[Brian Kirby]

Derek Uzzell - 2010-08-19 5:37 PM ..............I've got them on my Hobby and water does indeed appear on the inside of the lenses. I'm not certain the water actually enters the light itself (though the lens sealing arrangement is hardly brilliant) - I'm more minded to believe it's due to condensation forming on the inside of the lens and the water being unable to drain out easily. (This view is backed by the fact that the clear lenses seem to be much more prone to water build-up than the coloured ones.) ...............

Without wishing to appear facetious, Derek, might it not be possible to follow the Citroen tradition, and drill a hole at the base of the lens to let the water out again?  I know that means ten holes, but maybe easier than taking them apart to clean?

[rolandrat]

Melvin, I can understand how you feel but couldn't some of the gearbox problem be attributed to the company fitter that did the modification, most people that have had the work done that I have spoken to are more than happy. Two friends don't want the modification doing and are quite happy to leave them as they are as they aren't troublesome in reverse. One other thing Autotrail are British with the factory at Grimsby so if you have any habitation problems or need spare parts most are readily available and if necessary you can book your motorhome into their workshop by ringing Mark Atkinson, you can't do that with a foreign one. Like I have said, the 3ltr is in a class of its own.

[Derek Uzzell]

Brian Kirby - 2010-08-19 7:08 PM

 

Without wishing to appear facetious, Derek, might it not be possible to follow the Citroen tradition, and drill a hole at the base of the lens to let the water out again?  I know that means ten holes, but maybe easier than taking them apart to clean?

 

There already is a 'hole' incorporated into the light-unit's rear plastic moulding to allow any moisture entering/condensing within the unit to drain out. However, this drain-point is pretty small in cross-section and, although it does prevent major water buid-up occurring, it doesn't allow sufficient air movement within the light-unit's small-volume interior to ventilate that interior and dry out any condensation forming on the inside of the lens. I considered drilling an extra hole in the lens itself but concluded that this was unlikely to be effective.

 

In fact, I've already performed traditional hole-drilling surgery on the daft 'warning-to-low-flying-aircraft' high-level lights (I really loathe these things!!) fitted above my Hobby's cab. These are also made by Hella and, with 130km/h rain hitting them square in the face, it's perhaps not surprising that water gets in. Fortunately, the bulb-holder is held in a 'sleeve' in the light-unit and does not penetrate directly into the unit's interior. So, even when water is sloshing around inside the unit, the bulb receives reasonable protection (though I've had one bulb fail so far).

 

As the front and rear of these units are sealed together, with no drain incorporated, any moisture inside the unit stays inside. You can actually see a 'water line' forming inside as the unit gradually fills up and, of course, if the water is left there long-term, unsightly green mould will result. A water-contaminated light could be replaced with a new one (not cheap and with absolutely no guarantee the replacement will be any better), or the affected light could be removed, a hole drilled in it, the water shaken out, the light warmed up to dry its interior and then the hole resealed to stop rainwater blasting in. I did the latter, but it's not a satisfactory cure.

[Melvin]

rolandrat - 2010-08-19 7:14 PM

 

Melvin, I can understand how you feel but couldn't some of the gearbox problem be attributed to the company fitter that did the modification, most people that have had the work done that I have spoken to are more than happy. Two friends don't want the modification doing and are quite happy to leave them as they are as they aren't troublesome in reverse. One other thing Autotrail are British with the factory at Grimsby so if you have any habitation problems or need spare parts most are readily available and if necessary you can book your motorhome into their workshop by ringing Mark Atkinson, you can't do that with a foreign one. Like I have said, the 3ltr is in a class of its own.

 

Rolandrat,

 

The transmission modifications were carried out by Platts Stoke on Trent, there workmanship and attitude were excellent, however, they can only work with the material they are given.

 

I can now reverse on a flat gradient without juddering, as regards incline, I have to raise the revs and slip the clutch to minimise the judder.

 

I have no problem with Autotrail, but, I think Fiat attitude and handling of the whole afair stinks.

 

[rupert123]

Melvin - 2010-08-19 6:46 PM

 

Rolandrat,

 

I am one of the many poor soles with a duff gearbox, despite the bodged atempts at a repair. So no, even though I like the Autotrails, I am not in the market for another Fiat.

 

Melvin curious about your bodged attempt at repair bit, how was it bodged and if it was why have you not taken it back to repairer. The two people I know who had the job done are perfectly happy with it, indeed most posts about it on here and other forums people are happy. I accept Fiat did not handle this very well but what is new there, all motor manufacturers do the same thing. What has to be acknowledged is that if you want a new M/H and rule out Fiat you choice is very limited. Fiat remains the choice because it is simply the best base vehicle and M/H makers recognised that and continue to do so despite the problem with a few. Am also mystified about your inability to reverse even with the the modification done, your van must be very heavy indeed.

[rolandrat]

Melvin, I've taken on board your comments about your modification experience. You must be aware that asbestos has been outlawed and that all friction material make up has changed. This has resulted in clutch slip characteristics changing slightly, if you run a reasonably new car you will have noticed the difference. We own a Wreg and a 59 reg and they are both different on clutch uptake, the new one has grabbing tendencies and the old one is very smooth.

I don't think your service garage,although well known, has done you any favours with the gearbox upgrade. If I was you I would take it back.

[Melvin]

Rolandrat,

 

I understand what you are saying, and yes I did challenge the repair with Fiat. To date the van has only just covered 4000 miles. If Autotrail started manufacturing on the Mercedes chassis again, I would be intrested.

 

Autotrail motorhome are only covered with a 2 year Fiat warranty, the 3rd year is covered by an insurance policy only, so unfortunately I am out of time.

 

Regarding both the 2.3 and 3 litre, the owners I have meet on site are split some having no reversing problems at all, and others experiencing the judder.

 

 

[dawki]

rupert123 - 2010-08-20 12:50 PM

 

Melvin - 2010-08-19 6:46 PM

 

Rolandrat,

 

I am one of the many poor soles with a duff gearbox, despite the bodged atempts at a repair. So no, even though I like the Autotrails, I am not in the market for another Fiat.

 

Melvin curious about your bodged attempt at repair bit, how was it bodged and if it was why have you not taken it back to repairer. The two people I know who had the job done are perfectly happy with it, indeed most posts about it on here and other forums people are happy. I accept Fiat did not handle this very well but what is new there, all motor manufacturers do the same thing. What has to be acknowledged is that if you want a new M/H and rule out Fiat you choice is very limited. Fiat remains the choice because it is simply the best base vehicle and M/H makers recognised that and continue to do so despite the problem with a few. Am also mystified about your inability to reverse even with the the modification done, your van must be very heavy indeed.

 

In my experience not all manufactures’ are the same.

Mercedes found a problem with the oil separator on the Merc315 which I have.

They sent out polite letters asking for the owners to book the vehicles in for it to replaced

 

No denials about any problems just sorted

 

Fiats attitude to the people who have had the judder problem stinks and I have little doubt that if any further problems occur further down the line with 2.3 or even the 3 litre engines it will stink again.

 

Cheers

 

Dawki

[neil malcolmson]

rupert123 - 2010-08-20 12:50 PM

 

Melvin - 2010-08-19 6:46 PM

 

Rolandrat,

 

I am one of the many poor soles with a duff gearbox, despite the bodged atempts at a repair. So no, even though I like the Autotrails, I am not in the market for another Fiat.

 

Melvin curious about your bodged attempt at repair bit, how was it bodged and if it was why have you not taken it back to repairer. The two people I know who had the job done are perfectly happy with it, indeed most posts about it on here and other forums people are happy. I accept Fiat did not handle this very well but what is new there, all motor manufacturers do the same thing. What has to be acknowledged is that if you want a new M/H and rule out Fiat you choice is very limited. Fiat remains the choice because it is simply the best base vehicle and M/H makers recognised that and continue to do so despite the problem with a few. Am also mystified about your inability to reverse even with the the modification done, your van must be very heavy indeed.

 

How can something that has so may faults be simply the best.

 

I think the words you needed to use are simply the cheapest.