Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen transmission defect (6)

[Rayjsj]

Not if you have to slip the clutch excessively and highly 'Rev' the engine because the reverse Ratio is far too high.

At 12,000 miles Fiat SHOULD be putting in a new clutch for free or at least at a 'subsidised' price. They won't of course ! they will stick to the letter of their warranty. *-)

[Guest JudgeMental]

Not good is it! :-S The earlier gearbox was not fault free either was it? suffering from 5th gear failure from what I remember? *-)

[Brambles]

JudgeMental - 2011-01-17 11:35 AM

 

Not good is it! :-S The earlier gearbox was not fault free either was it? suffering from 5th gear failure from what I remember? *-)

 

No Judge, that was the earlier earlier one and was all sorted.

[Rayjsj]

Judge,

You are right, the original 'boxer' etc., from 1994 to i think 2002, did suffer from well documented 5th gear failures, i think because it was a 'bolted on' 5th gear with only 'splash' lubrication and problems with water finding it's way into the top of the gearbox. By 2003 a new gearbox was fitted, which (i hope) doesn't seem to have any problems.

Minefield 'out there' isn't it ?? Ray :-S

[Mike88]

Here we go again. I wish people would keep up. Here are a few quotes:

 

As far as the parts system is concerned, most (but not all) versions of the 2.2 and 2.3 engined Ducato's have a modified gearbox fitted from the factory if built after April 2009. This would seem to include many of the mods that have been carried out to earlier vans where the customer has complained.

 

Andy Stothert

 

3 litre 6 speed manual models

A Fiat employee who has been reliable throughout this debacle has stated that since mid 2009 the clutch lining spec has been changed to lessen or remove the tendency for the clutch to overheat too readily when reversed in extreme circumstances and slipping the clutch to control the speed of the vehicle. This does seem to backed up by a lack of 3 litre models which have incinerated their clutches recently.

 

Euroserve

 

I can confirm what Andy said regarding upgraded clutches for the 3.0 engine. There are two part numbers listed and the change happened in November 2008. If you try to order the earlier one it will be superceded by the late one so it is an upgrade. The good news is that you can order a 'reconditioned' clutch kit for the 3.0 vans which you cannot get for any of the others; it will save you over £100 if you ever have to replace one outside warranty. It's part number 71793642..........Don't get ripped off by Fiat dealers; always ask if there is a reconditioned item listed for whatever you need.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

On the contrary, I think people have been keeping up, very well.  The point of the post that resurrected this dormant thread was not that later vans still had the problem, but that there are still a number of earlier vehicles in circulation, and/or for sale, that have not had the full fix applied to them because the SEVEL partners have never agreed to a recall, relying only on successive fixes if the buyer complained.  If the pain persists, it is only because the SEVEL partners won't lance their own boil!

[Mike88]

Colin Leake - 2010-11-19 6:58 PM

 

This thread seems to have gone very quite of late. Does this mean that Fiat have cured the problems on their latest production. I certainly hope so as we have a new motorhome due in March. Not I may add one that is over the 3,500Kg mark.

 

Sorry Brian but you are incorrect. The above is the post that resurrected this issue and it is clear that the poster is discussing his new vehicle due in March.

[Brian Kirby]

Mike88 - 2011-01-17 6:41 PM

Colin Leake - 2010-11-19 6:58 PM This thread seems to have gone very quite of late. Does this mean that Fiat have cured the problems on their latest production. I certainly hope so as we have a new motorhome due in March. Not I may add one that is over the 3,500Kg mark.

Sorry Brian but you are incorrect. The above is the post that resurrected this issue and it is clear that the poster is discussing his new vehicle due in March.

Ah, silly me, and I quite thought it must be the one dated 16 January 2011 you were referring to, not one that is two months old.  If I may say so, in the nicest possible way, that is a very selective and novel definition of resurrection!  It's died twice again since your resurrection.  :-D

[Rayjsj]

I think that Brian drew a very good analagy, While the Sevel group refuse to Recall ALL of the vehicles out 'there' potentially with the fault. They 'Sit' on Dealers forecourts and in private hands (even more dangerous !) awaiting a poor 'uninformed' punter to come along and buy them.

Then the 'Unlanced Boil' rears it's ugly head again. The 'new' ones off of the assy. line may be OK ?? (I would still test it first by reversing it up a Hill....if I were buying one.) BUT there are still a lot of Unmodified 'Judderers' out there, simply because a lot of folk hardly ever have to reverse and even less up a steep incline, that does'nt mean that the next purchaser won't 'Have to' though.

Until it's FIXED, it isn't FIXED. (unless you can afford a 'Comfortamatic' of course.) *-) Ray

[Symbol Owner]

One of the points made (inadvertently) by the Feb. MMM road test of the Auto-Sleepers Cotswold EB was that a new 'van, on test, "Was unhappy on our one-in eight hill with some vibration and a smelly clutch"

Presumably that defective 'judderwagen' will go back to the dealer, who will attempt to sell it to some poor sucker for £57,000!

How the base vehicle builder (Peugeot in this case ) 'van converter and dealer can conspire to inflict this 'bag of nails' on some unsuspecting customer is beyond me --- caveat emptor folks!

Who says " It's fixed"? Obviously not in all cases -- and if you buy a Murvi on a Fiat 3.0 litre with the comfortmatic box even that might not be trouble free, according to a respected motorhome journalist!

Ray is right -- if you want a decent 'van and have to have a Fiat, Peugeot or Citroen, buy a second-hand ( or 'pre-loved' even) model on the X2/44 chassis -- This month's Which Motorhome recommends the pre-2007 Trigano Tribute over its sucessor because of the dreaded judder!

 

happy motorhoming,

 

Colin.

[DJP]

rolandrat - 2011-01-17 10:03 AM

 

There is a guy on the Motorcaravaners website who owns a 3ltr tag axle Aorotrail who has just had a clutch replaced at 12000 miles, he says that he has experienced clutch judder in 1st and reverse gears. Clutches should last considerably longer you would have thought.

I AM THAT GUY!

This is my tale of woe:

I have now had to replace the clutch on my 2 year old 12000 mile, Fiat X250 3.0ltr Motorhome at a cost in excess of £1000.00

Briefly

I reported the judder problem when the van was a week old (Nov 2008). The local Fiat technician agreed there was a problem and a case number was given.

I received a letter some time afterwards to say there is no fault with Fiat vehicles. Shortly after that that 2.3's were recalled for new gearbox/ clutch/engine mounts. But strangely not 3.0 ltr.

After a year of ownership I took it back to dealer, another technician tested it and again agreed there was a fault and another case number given. In the following February during a visit to NEC and the Fiat stand a further test was arranged with a Fiat UK engineer.

At the end of an extensive test the engineer stated and I quote "I do not think you have a problem" A further letter came to say vehicle was, according to Italy, free from faults.

In September of 2010 the clutch started to slip. Further discussions and emails with Fiat UK got me no where so I asked for the case to be reported to Fiat Italy, which it was.

In the meantime I had to have the clutch replaced at a cost of over £1000 Fiat did offer a reduction on the cost of the parts as a good will gesture, but it still cost me £1000 AND the van still judders as badly as it did before.

Am I now looking to replace the clutch every 2 years or 12000 miles and keep my fingers crossed nothing else gearbox/transmission related fails?

I did receive a reply from Fiat Italy which is below.

 

Dear Sir,

 

Thank you for contacting us and for your interest in our Brand.

We have received your e-mail only once and we apologise for the inconvenience related.

 

We forwarded your complaint to our relevant departments and checked it in collaboration with Fiat UK who informed us about the answer which has been confirmed to you three times by formal mail.

 

Therefore we are afraid not to have anything else to add and we cannot discuss or disapprove the answer given.

 

We kindly invite you to refer to the previously provided communication.

 

However we sincerely appreciate the feedback and proposals we receive from our Customers or future ones as it allows us to provide each day better services, events and products.

 

Kind Regards,

 

Customer Relations

Fiat Group Automobiles S.p.A.

 

CUSTOMER RELATIONS AT ITS WORST!

 

I believe people may have been silenced for whatever reason, but Fiat should not be allowed to walk all over its customers. If I was the ONLY person to complain, then it may me different but as there are so many of us, there has to be a serious problem and NOBODY cares!

 

In one of my conversations with Fiat UK they suggested I could take them to court. They advised me to get the vehicle tested by an independant engineer and send my complaint with the report to a solicitor and the SMMT. When I asked for the "bench marK" to measure the judder against. At what point is the judder unacceptable or in their terms "outside the operating perameters" they would not tell me. It is a Fiat internal document.

So what is acceptable to one person, may not be to another, i.e. ME, 2 local Fiat technicians and a Fiat UK enginner who "Does not think there is a problem". But how can you measure it? Fiat obviously know I cannot take them on, in a court of law finacially. Will anyone want to know some 2 years down the road? I doubt it.

I will write to press etc. and see what comes of it, but I am not holding much hope.

 

I had a recon clutch fitted which was £5.49 more EXPENSIVE exc. vat. Than a new unit!

Cost of recon clutch kit, flywheel, bolts and a nut £570.00 + VAT (NO slave fitted).

Cost of same parts NEW £564.51 Fiat logic again!!

 

Just one other word of advice

IF you are thinking about changing your current van for a newer model say 2007on with a Fiat 3.0 ltr engine. TAKE IT FOR A TEST DRIVE ON THE MOTORWAY. Drive at 55mph in 5th and floor the throttle, watch the rev counter. If it shoots round without any increase in speed, the clutch is slipping.

The fault does not lie with the converter, Auto Trail, Swift, Bessacar etc. etc. It has to lie firmy on Fiats shoulders.

I know of another van with the same slipping clutch problem I had. It is currently be nursed along until the owner takes delivery of his new van in March. Then it will be on the used forecourt. Mine had covered 12000 miles the other van has covered 15000 miles.Neither I or the other owner are heavy on the clutch, except when reversing when slipping the clutch is the ONLY option to juddering or reversing at too high a speed to manouveur safely. BEWARE of this and others. They will be around. You have been warned.

 

[DJP]

Sorry double post.

Must be all the judder, judder, juddering :-(

[rolandrat]

At the end of the day your personal health and well being is more important than a troublesome motorhome even though the manufacturers are fully aware of the transmission problems. If I had exhausted every avenue in my quest for perfection or an acceptable compromise I would bite the bullet and get rid, stuff the stress.

[DJP]

Getting rid was an option considered. What to replace it with was the next problem. NOT another Fiat!

Must haves

Island bed

Reasonable economy. (Rules out RV)

Not a Euro style van with a front dinette.

Lots of space to lounge in.

Suggestions on the back of a £20.00 note (To cover cost of clutch!)

[jhorsf]

You say the convertor is not to blame, you are correct it is the dealer you bought the van from that is responsible in law for problems

[Rayjsj]

jhorsf - 2011-01-18 11:13 PM

 

You say the convertor is not to blame, you are correct it is the dealer you bought the van from that is responsible in law for problems

 

 

Oh Please ! not the legal technicalities again !! THIS IS A MANUFACTURING AND DESIGN DEFECT. (sorry for shouting ) OK, Rupert 123 etc., etc. what about this one ?? Is it = His Imagination, his is the Only One, the Fault is fixed now, 'Mine' is OK (sod anyone else), Bad Driving.??

 

I feel very sorry for this Guy, The Idustry Has a problem. The Primary Vehicle used for Motorhome Bases has a serious and ongoing design Fault,

Hundreds if not Thousands have been sold and are still being sold.

The Gearbox Design and ratios used for reverse are Far too high, a redesign is required.

Don't buy one. Caveat Emptor !

>:-( >:-(

[DJP]

jhorsf - 2011-01-18 11:13 PM

 

You say the convertor is not to blame, you are correct it is the dealer you bought the van from that is responsible in law for problems

I understand the supplying dealer is where my contract lies and it may be felt that the vehicle is not fit for purpose or similar claims. However, the dealer has treated me as well as I would expect as has Auto Trail. I am not prepared to take the case up with the dealer. The situation is entirely out of their control. If I had tried to exercise my rights by rejecting the vehicle it would have sat at the dealers premises whilst a very long and costly legal proceedings were taken with no guarantees of me winning, plus not having the van during this period and maybe huge legal costs should I lose my case.

I have no option other than to accept the van as it is with the faults. I will try and advise future owners to be aware of the problems that they MAY have with purchases of the Fiat brand and what they can expect to happen, or not if these problems should arise on their van. New or USED!

[DJP]

Sorry. Forum seems to be having server problems, hence multiple posts.

[DJP]

Sorry. Forum seems to be having server problems, hence multiple posts.

[Symbol Owner]

This thread ( the sixth in an ongoing series) is just getting too long, that's all, just bear with it -- it still works, slowly! Or perhaps start a new one as it still seems to be very necessary unfortunately. 'More power to your elbow' Ray -- we still need to 'keep banging the drum', it seems!

[flicka]

DJP - 2011-01-19 10:29 AM

jhorsf - 2011-01-18 11:13 PM You say the convertor is not to blame, you are correct it is the dealer you bought the van from that is responsible in law for problems

I understand the supplying dealer is where my contract lies and it may be felt that the vehicle is not fit for purpose or similar claims. However, the dealer has treated me as well as I would expect as has Auto Trail. I am not prepared to take the case up with the dealer. The situation is entirely out of their control. If I had tried to exercise my rights by rejecting the vehicle it would have sat at the dealers premises whilst a very long and costly legal proceedings were taken with no guarantees of me winning, plus not having the van during this period and maybe huge legal costs should I lose my case. I have no option other than to accept the van as it is with the faults. I will try and advise future owners to be aware of the problems that they MAY have with purchases of the Fiat brand and what they can expect to happen, or not if these problems should arise on their van. New or USED!

DJP

You have my sympathy for your dilema.

However the saga started in this vien & due to the persistance of Andy Stothard gained credibility & Fiat reacting.

I understand your reluctance regarding commencing Court proceeding, but IMHO you have cause for to take he matter further.

IMHO it would be beneficial to at least approach the Trading Standards, armed with the information & frequent occurance of the probem on this & other forums, for their recommendations.

This will incurr minimal costs (your time) & should provide you with sufficient information to be able to determine your future action.

Alternatively, a short session with a Solicitor who specialises in Contract Law, again this would only incurr low initial financial cost.

[DJP]

Thanks Flicka for your words of advice. I have just been informed there is something happening next week in Italy about my case. I will delay any actions until after I heard the result.

Thanks again

[euroserv]

Therein lies the problem.

 

It is absolutely the dealer that sold you the vehicle that is responsible for any faults that are inherent in the vehicle. It is up to them to deal with the chassis maker to sort it out and you should not get involved with the process at all until they confess to failing to resolve your issues and in doing so admit that the vehicle is not fit for purpose and refund your money or offer you an alternative.

 

It is imperative that you do this; not just for your own benefit but eventually, if the dealer has enough trouble on his own doorstep he will stop offering the offending vehicles and hopefully then coachbuilders will stop building the offending vehicles . Then and only then will Fiat et al attend to the need to re-engineer the gearbox.

 

The responsibility for ending this issue lies with the coachbuilders because only they have the clout to make something happen.

 

People buying them regardless only exacerbates the problem. It is the continuing demand that encourages continued supply.

 

Nick

 

[Brian Kirby]

Spot on Nick!  Re taking action against Fiat, my understanding is that you have no basis in law upon which to proceed. 

Theoretically, you could try suing for failure to comply with the terms of their warranty, but warranty terms are not open to interpretation, they mean exactly what they say, no more, no less.  So, if Fiat says the degree of judder you experience is normal for such a vehicle, and is within their quality parameters, who can counter that?

It is only the selling dealer you can sue, and the ideal time for that is now, regrettably, long past.  It can still be done, but the delay will have made your case weaker and more tenuous.  In that respect, this is not a moral, or emotional, matter, but a legal one.  The law places the onus on the seller ("the trader").  It is frequently unfair but, like it or not, that is how it is.

[DJP]

HI Brian

Thanks for very valid and accurate advice. I fully understand my only course of action is to sue the supplying dealer. I feel that I am am a very fair person and believe blame should be apportioned to the wrong doer. I cannot and will not hold the dealer responsible for my situation. Just think about the repercussions if my case was successful and I recovered the cost of the motorhome, (less fair wear and tear). It would open the floodgates for many other owners who may have a genuine case or may just want to get rid of their van, to sue the dealers. What effect would that have on the whole market and used van prices. Sheer devastation! Masses of unsaleable vans and dealers out of business would be the extreme, but certainly a knock on effect. Assuming I won and others follow that is. ALL because Fiat produced a bad gearbox. No doubt on the new X250 replacement these problems will have been sorted. Then Fiat are back in the market place with little or no loss to their business. Why should UK dealers suffer? Fiat should be made to pay or put right the problem (new gearbox) at its cost.

I am being extreme, but my dealer should not be forced to loose money for NO fault of there own doing. Apart form that, if I did take action, my chances of winning are virtually non existant so all this is hyperthetical.

But it helps to get it off my chest. Thanks!!!!