swift reversing judder

[kay]

does anybody out there know anything about the reversing judder on the swift sundance 130 model. wanting to buy and unsure how covered if a problem.

[flicka]

Hi Kay & welcome to the forum.

I don't recognise the "130" model No.

The "judder" refers to vans produced on the new "Sevel" vans ( Fiat, Peugeot & Citroen) although most of the information is Fiat based as that is the commonest.

If the Van you are looking at is pre-2006 or the majority of 2006 models it will not apply.

If based on the new model see the Fiat Gearbox thread on this forum.

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=19369&posts=44

Rule is try the van you are intending to buy, as thatis the only way to be sure. Worst offender appears to be the 2.3L engine with 6 speed Gearbox.

[kay]

The van is a swift sundance 590rl. Fiat engine 2.3 with 130 bhp. Thanks for info, very informative but still not very clear.

[flicka]

kay - 2010-05-02 9:09 PM

 

The van is a swift sundance 590rl. Fiat engine 2.3 with 130 bhp. Thanks for info, very informative but still not very clear.

 

Do you know which Year, Kay

I think Swift only produced this model on the pre-2007 new model Fiat.

There was no "judder"problem with the 2002-2006 vehicle.

[david lloyd]

kay - 2010-05-02 9:09 PM

 

The van is a swift sundance 590rl. Fiat engine 2.3 with 130 bhp. Thanks for info, very informative but still not very clear.

 

Kay

 

I don't think the previous model Fiat Ducato included a 2.3 engine so this does look like the newer X250 chassis which certainly may suffer from reverse judder. The judder itself is caused by a too high reverse gear and can be so severe as to cause serious gearbox failure when reversing up a gradient. If the judder is reduced by riding the clutch (to allow higher revs but slower speed) it can alternatively burn out the clutch.

 

The thread that Flicka has pointed you in the direction of is quite long but it is comprehensive in the details of this problem and well worth reading through but will probably not contain specific reference to this particular swift model. However, if the vehicle is built on a post 2006 X250 type Fiat Ducato or Peugeot Boxer then the only sure way to determine if it is affected is to test drive it in reverse up a steep incline.

 

Regards,

David

[Mr. Grumpy]

The pre-x250 Fiat van certainly included a 2.3lt engine with a 5 speed gear box. The engine is actually an Iveco produced motor and it is a very good and economical one. No problem with reverse gear either!

[kay]

We did reverse it uphill and it had the judder. It is still under warranty for 2yrs. Does anyone know if it is a straight forward repair under warranty.

By the way great help from everyone, thanks.

[Guest JudgeMental]

what judder :-S

[david lloyd]

kay - 2010-05-03 9:13 AM

 

We did reverse it uphill and it had the judder. It is still under warranty for 2yrs. Does anyone know if it is a straight forward repair under warranty.

By the way great help from everyone, thanks.

 

Sorry Kay, it is anything but a straightforward repair under warranty.

 

The previous threads on this forum (six so far!) illustrate just how difficult it has been for some to obtain any sort of recognition or help from dealers and Fiat to correct the defect.

 

There have been several different attempts ranging from updates to the engine management system, replacing the engine mounts, tweaking the existing gearbox or replacing it with a new gearbox and other parts. The reverse judder threads give all the details but it is a case of registering the fault with Fiat who will arrange for the vehicle to be tested by a Fiat representative. If the judder is accepted as being present (and some have been contested) Fiat will arrange with a local garage to undertake one of the modifications.

 

The process does not seem to be very consistent either. Some owners have had to go through the whole of the differing modifications one at a time while others report that they have had the new gearbox fitted straight away. The results are equally inconsistent with some owners reporting either a reduction or elimination of the judder, others with no discernible difference and yet more with added noises emanating from the transmission.

 

It is all there in the previous threads so it is well worth the time and effort to read through them. At the end of the day it is a matter of using your own judgement and assessing how confident you feel that the problem can be overcome.

 

 

Mr Grumpy,

 

My apologies, you are right about the previous model with 2.3 engine but it does seem as if Kay's intended purchase is on the new X250 and, sadly, is affected by the reverse judder.

 

David

[webbocj]

David, just picked upon your point about the "transmission noise". Having had both mod's done I finished with a noise from the gearbox - idling gears!! which wasn't there before mod. 2. My complaints to Fiat resulted in a final "engineers" test,giving it the OK, Fiat said that was the end of the proposed work and "cherio". Wasn't aware of others with the same complaint?. Having had one trip last week as a test before we head off to Croatia I can only say my confidence is very low and that we will not suffer from an escalation of the noise with the obvious results. (combined with another very strange problem that I find difficult to explain or whether others will understand, may try a new thread)

 

chris

[zulurita]

Kay,

 

I would make it a condition of sale that the full works re the judder is carried out prior to you collecting the mh.

 

Once you purchase the mh and the work isn't done then it will be up to you to contact Fiat and get a case number for them to authorise the warranty work.

 

Mine has been done and I had to leave the mh with my dealer for 3 days for the work to be done.

 

So far I have found reversing ok since and so far not encountered any problems.

[Mel B]

Hi Kay

 

I assume you're looking at the new X2/50 Fiat as the old 2.3jtd (5 speed) was only 110 bhp, and the one you are considering is 130bhp.

 

As for the 'judder', personally I wouldn't touch it! Unfortunately not all vans that have the fix get the problem sorted out. Some it appears to 'cure' completely but only time will tell for sure, others still have problems even after the fix.

 

If you are seriously considering buying this vehicle, I'd insist on the judder being fixed BEFORE you buy it and then try it again afterwards and make your mind up then, as, once you've bought it, it's too late - you cannot reject it and the warranty isn't extended to take account of it either.

 

I spoke to a chap the other day who came round to look at something we were selling - he has a Swift Bolero (from new) and his gearbox went 'bang' exactly 23 hours and 30 minutes AFTER he had taken possession and driven it home! All he had done was to put it on his drive and then decided to turn it round to make it more convenient for loading etc ... it went with a big bang apparently and he didn't have a sloping drive! He is now on gearbox number 3 and is still not a happy bunny. He also has had numerous problem with the habitation side too.

[Rayjsj]

Kay,

Before buying, read the threads concerning Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen X250

(post 2006). there have been many gone before You.

Love at First sight (in this case) can be a dangerous (for your wallet) thing ! Ray 8-)

[kay]

Thanks for all the info. Its good to hear from other motorhomers. Difficult decision to make. Trouble is we really like the rear lounge set up, and not keen on the bessecar or ace model. will also contact seller to get him to review this site so he understands the problem.

hard decisions to be made. Look forweard to hearing from you.

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

Kay

I'm still a bit mystified, but it seems you are considering buying a Swift Sundance van that is one year old, with two years of a three year warranty still extant.  I assume this is the Fiat warranty, and not a Swift group warranty.

The Swift, presumably, is built on a current Fiat Ducato chassis.  If so, it is the Fiat bit that judders - Swift only build the "caravan" bit onto the Fiat chassis.  Bessacar, and Ace, vans also ride on Fiat chassis.

The judder, also referred to as a vibration, is a characteristic of the current generation of Fiat Ducato, Peugeot Boxer, and Citroen Jumper vans.  The exact cause is not entirely clear, but it has been apparent, to varying degrees, on these vans since their launch. 

Fiat and Peugeot, whose vans are the most common motorhome base vehicles, have tried various remedies, the most recent, and most radical, being a part rebuild of the gearbox with replacement flywheel and clutch.  These modifications do not result in a complete cure, but those whose vans have been treated, report that the defect is reduced.  The modifications are expensive and, consequently, neither company is volunteering them.

To date, the experience of most whose vans are affected has been a succession of visits to a local Fiat/Peugeot garage for various "tests" to be carried out and reported to Fiat/Peugeot, and again while varying alternative modifications, short of the full gearbox mod, are made, and the van returned to the owner for evaluation. 

If these do not work - and most have not - the process is started again, and the next level of modification made following further visits to the garage, tests and reports.

Those whose vans are severely affected have experienced gearbox components breaking under the strain of the judder if they have had to reverse on steep hills.  Some breaking more than one box.  The process of obtaining the best currently available, partial, repair has taken most affected owners months, during which time they have had greatly restricted use of their vans, and spent a very great deal of time, and money, on phone calls, visits to garages, waiting for appointments for repairs, and for parts. 

Throughout this process, no-one, to my knowledge, has received any compensation for their inconvenience, loss of use of the van, out of pocket expenses, or lost time.

You would be well advised to read the various "Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen transmission defect" strings, to get the full flavour of what has been going on, before deciding whether or not you want to risk buying any van based on these vehicles.

[jhorsf]

Kay you say it still has 2 years warranty but the 3rd year is a dealer only warranty and covers even less than the first two years do not let your heart rule your wallet if it has the judder WALK AWAY

[PJay]

Hi Kay

If you really like that model and layout. Why not by a good secondhand pre 2006. We have a 2.3 ltr 2006 Sundance 590rs, so not the rear lounge version, but otherwise the same . We have had no problems with our vehicle .There should be some good ones for sale Would not buy the later models.

Good luck with your search

Pauline

[rolandrat]

Don't forget to check for a spongy floor around and near the door area on those models.

[rupert123]

kay - 2010-05-02 7:28 PM

 

does anybody out there know anything about the reversing judder on the swift sundance 130 model. wanting to buy and unsure how covered if a problem.

 

Kay this is a good site with a lot of helpfull people contributing but is the wrong place to ask this question. A lot on here have a 'thing' about Fiat despite having no personal experience of the problem. If you check on the much larger sites such as MHF you will find the whole thing has disappeared. However they are right to urge caution and you must check if the van has had the full gearbox conversion, and get proof. If it has then personally I would go ahead. The Sundance is not to heavy so should not have any problem with reversing, some judder or vibration up a slope will occur on most vans when you first try to drive one but it depends how severe this is, only by personally driving it can you tell. Unfortunately since the whole thing became known anyone with the slightest vibration from a Fiat shouts reverse judder.

[euroserv]

Hello,

 

You may also have noticed that there are some people around who would prefer that this irritating issue would disappear because it could potentially harm the future value of thier 'perfect' vehicle.

 

The point is clearly made that this does not affect every vehicle but some of the most documented cases have been panel van conversions and very long bodied coachbuilts so it does not seem to matter about the configuration.

 

You have noticed the judder before parting with any money, so I think you should go with your natural instinct and RUN while considering your self very lucky indeed. If there was no problem, or it only affected a few vehicles or was easily fixed the manufacturer would have issued a recall to restore faith in the brand, or would have extended the warranty on the gearbox to demonstrate thier faith in thier engineering.

 

They have not. RUN away while you have your finances and sanity intact, while posting on here the registration number of the vehicle and the dealer so they can be embarrassed into sorting it out rather than waiting for a sucker to buy it. THEY should be having a go at Fiat, not the hapless buyer. If you wanted a project you would buy a 20 year old camper (for the appropriate sum)!

 

To summarise; DON'T!

 

Nick

[neil malcolmson]

rupert123 - 2010-05-04 10:28 AM

 

kay - 2010-05-02 7:28 PM

 

does anybody out there know anything about the reversing judder on the swift sundance 130 model. wanting to buy and unsure how covered if a problem.

 

Kay this is a good site with a lot of helpfull people contributing but is the wrong place to ask this question. A lot on here have a 'thing' about Fiat despite having no personal experience of the problem. If you check on the much larger sites such as MHF you will find the whole thing has disappeared. However they are right to urge caution and you must check if the van has had the full gearbox conversion, and get proof. If it has then personally I would go ahead. The Sundance is not to heavy so should not have any problem with reversing, some judder or vibration up a slope will occur on most vans when you first try to drive one but it depends how severe this is, only by personally driving it can you tell. Unfortunately since the whole thing became known anyone with the slightest vibration from a Fiat shouts reverse judder.

 

 

269 pages on MHF and still growing...

Hardly disappeared

[Keithl]

Kay,

 

While you are reading the fifth post on Reverse judder pay particular attention to the posts of 'Moyne' (the last was half way down page 25) and then send him a PM and ask him what he thinks of F***.

If you're not convinced yet then I think he will help you decide!

 

As for me, I steered clear and bought a Mercedes Sprinter base, it even reverses on grass without the slightest murmur, absolutely beautiful.

 

Keith.

[Symbol Owner]

Bump -- now that Rupert has posted his usual unhelpful retort, perhaps we should request some words of wisdom from Fred grant (?)

[rupert123]

Symbol Owner - 2010-05-04 11:21 PM

 

Bump -- now that Rupert has posted his usual unhelpful retort, perhaps we should request some words of wisdom from Fred grant (?)

 

Why unhelpful, do not understand. I did say be carefull with purchase but gave my honest opinion to go ahead IF modified gearbox was in place. Is it because a few cannot bear the thought that Fiat have won hands down on this and there is now a lack of new complaints just the same tired old ones trying to keep things going. Am I now not entitled to give my opinion just because it happens to differ from yours. I have a totally problem free X250 as do 1000,s of others now you may not like it but it is a fact, what exactly is wrong with that.

[Brian Kirby]

rupert123 - 2010-05-05 4:52 PM .......... Is it because a few cannot bear the thought that Fiat have won hands down on this and there is now a lack of new complaints just the same tired old ones trying to keep things going. Am I now not entitled to give my opinion just because it happens to differ from yours. I have a totally problem free X250 as do 1000,s of others now you may not like it but it is a fact, what exactly is wrong with that.

Henry, as far as I am concerned you are wholly entitled to your opinion.  However, your comment that "A lot on here have a 'thing' about Fiat despite having no personal experience of the problem" could have seemed a bit provocative to those who have a "thing" about Fiat precisely because of their personal experience of the problem.  You do seem to belittle their experiences - and they are quite numerous - on the strength of your own, much more agreeable experience.  Yes, I know there may be numerous others whose vans are unaffected, but is that knowledge really supposed to compensate those whose vans are?  Have you never heard of "rubbing it in"?

The OP said he had tried the van in question, and it judders.  He was hoping that a fix might be straightforward.  I think it fair to say the collected evidence of the afflicted is that the process is very far from straightforward.

As to Fiat winning hands down, do you really see this as just some arcane, "X factor", kind of contest?  Some of those affected still have vans that judder despite having had all the "fixes" applied.  No-one who has had any of the fixes seems entirely confident in their vans, and no one has to my knowledge acknowledged a complete and satisfactory cure.  Most seem more to be living in hope, and I suspect few will readily buy another motorhome based on the same vehicle.  Exhausted resignation seems to be where most now are, and these are the ones who have not changed their vans, at considerable expense, for ones not on X2/50 bases.

So yes, if this was an arm wrestling contest, you could declare Fiat the winner.  What other outcome was ever likely in a contest between a bunch (for the most part) of disorganised pensioners, and a multi-billion Euro, multi-national, engineering conglomerate?  Well, that's alright then, all sorted, Fiat won, and Henry's happy!  Hoo bloody ray!

My real problem, however, is that you seem to see this "defeat" of your fellow motorhomers as something to celebrate!  I think most of us would instead expect a modicum of sensitivity toward those whose vans have turned into nightmares, and a just little less smug self-satisfaction that your's has not.

I'm sorry to lecture, but I'm afraid I can't express my distaste for these crass comments in any other way.  Humour is defeated!  Apologies to all.