swift reversing judder

[RoyH]

Well said Brian. If you were on the ballot paper tomorrow you'd have my vote. ( No lightheartedness intended).

 

[fred grant]

Symbol Owner - 2010-05-04 11:21 PM

 

Bump -- now that Rupert has posted his usual unhelpful retort, perhaps we should request some words of wisdom from Fred grant (?)

 

No words of wisdom needed my biddies. Just another large cross for brian on thursday.

 

Brian, my ansum, can i be in your cabinet on friday? preferably the one in which you keeps the ambar nektar.

 

forsythiafred

[rupert123]

Brian you really need to go back and read my original post rather than simply going of in this manner. I said poster should make sure the full gearbox modification was done and to be wary. If others choose not read posts properly I would a least expect you to. If I wanted a Fiat based van, if the modifications had been done, if it then drove ok, yes I would buy it. That is my stance, now if you or anyone else does not agree fine but I stand by my right to state it. As to my own van, just trying to make a point not being smug about it. I also try to face facts not get hysterical about it all. I have always accepted that some have had problems but I also accept Fiat have put most right and problem is now largely behind them. I have had morons even suggest I am trying to stop my van depreciating, why would I do that when there is no sign this fault has in any way effected the sale of vans with a Fiat base. Others have come on here and stated they have had no problems and been shouted down but why must people only look at one point of view. Why did people with these vans not take them straight back to the dealer and reject them as not fit for purpose, I sure as hell would have done. Finally if you bother to look you will see the number complaining, which was never many, has pretty much died not only here but on other forums as well. These threads are only being kept going by 'bumps' so give it a rest.

[Rayjsj]

Henry,

While the problem is still there, it won't 'Rest'.

If Fiat had treated people reasonably in the begining there would have been nothing to write in this Thread. Nothing historically against Fiat, but wouldn't buy one now. AND if people ask on this forum for advice !!! Thats what the Forum is for surely.

[AndyStothert]

Fiat alone got over 2000 complaints from just motorhome owners.

Most were owners of the 2.3 litre vans.

Most of these have now (after some very very dishonest behaviour on Fiat's part for quite a long period of time) been resolved in an adequate but not totally satisfactory manner.

I for one still aren't happy with a reverse gear ratio which I consider to be too high for safe controlled reversing in tight steep situations without risking putting the clutch in jeopardy. I realise that most folk will not find themselves in these situations, but you just never know, and the simple fact is that the vehicle, as a small delivery van (which is what ALL Ducatos are underneath), should be capable of delivering even on the worst extremes of public highway conditions.

Over 200 of the complaining owners have the 3 litre model and none of them have recieved any satisfaction from Fiat whatsoever.

Despite the nearly 2000 modifications carried out (hardly the small number Henry is suggesting) there are still a lot out there which haven't been modified, and as Henry (rupert123) himself says, these need avoiding.

How many more reasons do we need for attempting to keep this matter in the public's mind?

And have Fiat won, if winning by foul or dishonest means is acceptable?

Their accountants may beg to differ after seeing 40 million Euros spent on rectifying the existing and production gearboxes.

[AndyStothert]

And.....I forgot to add that we should have been away right now, but the Ducato is immobile (again) with a duff front offside bottom ball joint which has failed at 30,000 miles.

Just another one-off component failure maybe, but Fiat don't seem to be very good at delivering spare parts quickly to rectify them - besides not having clue about gearbox design for commercial vehicles.

 

[rupert123]

Rayjsj - 2010-05-05 9:42 PM

 

Henry,

While the problem is still there, it won't 'Rest'.

If Fiat had treated people reasonably in the begining there would have been nothing to write in this Thread. Nothing historically against Fiat, but wouldn't buy one now. AND if people ask on this forum for advice !!! Thats what the Forum is for surely.

 

Raymond I agree with you, at least the bit about advice and what a forum is for. Now I did just what you are saying, many may not agree with that opinion but it is an honest one. Some like Brian cannot take, it seems, any view that differs from their own, well to bad I will continue to give mine. As for the much stated 'I will never buy a Fiat again' well as all car and van makers I know have had various problems in the past and in most part have acted exactly the same way as Fiat these people would now be rideing around in a horse and cart. It is hard to take a company acting in this manner but they all do it, I can, as no doubt others can, quote dozens of cases. Andy fought a long bitter fight and I can understand his stance but most do not, fortunatly, have this bad experience. Many posts on here I also have doubts about, including the originator of this one. Why would anyone ask if anything is known about the Fiat reverse judder when all they had to do was read through the on-going thread. Why does Nick , euro whats it, who first came on here stating he had a fleet of X250,s which gave him no trouble having done tens of thousands miles suddenly become the judder's friend and warn others of them. Do not believe all you read. Go back and see when the last new complaint came up on here or anywhere else, so why still the problem, especially if a second hand van has had the full modifications done.

[AliB]

I bought a Fiat based motorhome, it juddered, I called Fiat customer service, very arranged for the modifications to be carried out. It was a process that caused me very little hassle, they did not even ask for the vehicle to be tested. This was probably largely due to efforts of Andy Stothert and Fiat by now accepting these modifications were required. My big frustration was that the supplying dealer completely washed their hands of the situation. And it seems dealers are still doing the same if they are offering vehicles that have not been modified.

 

As a family with kids we needed a long van, preferably with a rear lounge. We hired a Ford based vehicle which was not over long at 6.8metres. It wallowed on corners. You do not notice it so much from the front driver or passenger seat. Try sitting in the rear passenger seats. One of our family suffers from travel sickness and after a weekend in the hire vehicle proclaimed they would not travel in such a vehicle again. In reality the Ford based van wallowed on straight roads if the road surface was uneven.

 

A Merc was out of the question as beyond our price range so we tried the Fiat. Eventually we settled for a 7.3 metre long Fiat based rear lounge model, with a big rear overhang. It drives straight and there are no complaints from the occupants of travel sickness.

 

As most motorhomers are couples they probably have no requirement or experience of travelling in the rear of a vehicle. It puts a whole new perspective on your selection criteria.

 

So now I am accused of spending the kid’s inheritance by buying Fiat. Far from it. The motorhome has given us some great times and adventurers. The kids love it and would not be without. If I had read all these posts on the forum before buying I may have been put off a motorhome completely. That would have excluded us from the experience of a lifetime.

 

As to the resale value, it is irrelevant as I would probably have to buy another Fiat so that would also be downvalued. Although I have not read any posts from somebody who has received a poor resale value directly attributed to the gearbox issue. I have read of people who traded in a nearly new vehicle and lost a considerable amount. But that is true for any nearly new exchange. As usual, someone will state the opposite but it will only be relevant if they are speaking from personal experience.

 

This forum provides a huge amount of useful information but people who make statements who have no personal experience simply dilute the authenticity of the forum. By all means have an opinion and your say but please express it as an opinion.

 

Why do people “bump” a thread? They must consider their comments and posts of more relevance than anyone else’s posts. They remind me of the pub bore who keeps saying the same thing over and over again with nothing new to add. Most people ignore them. I could stoop to their levels and bump 20 odd threads to counteract their bump! Don’t worry I would not do anything to effect the authenticity of the forum but lets leave the selfish tactics at home.

 

[art338]

Henry,

 

It is a fact that a large number of motorcaravans are "decided upon" by the lady of the house due to the interior decoration.

 

Should that be fact, how many menfolk would then turn to their lady and tell them NO you're not having it!!

 

Whilst you Henry may not be in that league many are, and that may be why there are few complaints. It is a fact Henry that many houses are totally ruled by females who make all the decisions.

 

It is reasonable therefore to state that this fiasco has past the mechanical stage and into the realms of home comfort. And dear Henry, how many would complain about their home comforts!

 

A pity

 

Art

 

 

[euroserv]

I think by now the originator of this post is well and truly confused.

 

Gleaned from the posts above, and including those of Rupert123 we can safely say that the threads are less active with less new cases reported recently. Or are there.....?

 

It could be that because of the main thread being bumped regularly and contributions made that the matter remains in the forefront of anyone's buying decisions and they are being cautious. Owners 1-Fiat 0

 

Perhaps because of the thread being so prominent on this site and the regular bumping and additional comment people who do buy the affected vehicles are clued up about what to do about it and what (if limited) help there is to be sought. Owners 2-Fiat 0

 

Because of the pressure exerted by the contributors to this and other sites, there is a modified gearbox fitted to later 2.3 6 speed vans that incorporates many of the modifications that have been done to earlier vehicles. Do you really think that Fiat would have done this if we had kept quiet and accepted that it was a 'characteristic' ? Owners 3-Fiat 0

 

There are un-modified and defective vehicles out there that have been passed on by unhappy owners. They are out of warranty in many cases and will not get any help from Fiat if things go wrong. Owners 3-Fiat 1

 

The last one hardly constitutes a win for Fiat but that is why we are here. Bumping where necessary and trying to help people make informed decisions.

 

If you have driven a vehicle before buying it and were concerned about a judder while reversing you are advised by a number of users, drivers and owners to walk away from it. Any contribution from someone who has not got a problem with their van is utterly irrelevant.

 

THIS ONE APPEARS TO BE AFFECTED! DO YOU ACTUALLY SUGGEST THAT THEY BUY IT?

 

Less smugness, more actual help.

 

Nick

[Brian Kirby]

rupert123 - 2010-05-06 10:22 AM ...... Some like Brian cannot take, it seems, any view that differs from their own, well to bad I will continue to give mine. .............

.............. Many posts on here I also have doubts about, including the originator of this one. Why would anyone ask if anything is known about the Fiat reverse judder when all they had to do was read through the on-going thread. Why does Nick , euro whats it, who first came on here stating he had a fleet of X250,s which gave him no trouble having done tens of thousands miles suddenly become the judder's friend and warn others of them. Do not believe all you read. Go back and see when the last new complaint came up on here or anywhere else, so why still the problem, especially if a second hand van has had the full modifications done.

Just two comments Henry, then I'm out.

I do not object that you have a point of view, whether or not it corresponds with mine.  I do not even "object" to the extraordinarily insensitive manner in which you parade your van's fault free status (though it makes me wince), before those whose vans are faulty and cause them considerable grief.  However, I find the way you express those sentiments comprehensively objectionable, and will continue to make that clear as, and when, I am so motivated.

Second, as you continue to insinuate degrees of dishonesty, exaggeration, and base motivation, selectively, to others' posts - sauce for the goose being sauce for the gander - should we not apply the same logic to your posts?

[euroserv]

I should also like to add a note of thanks to Rupert123.

 

Yes, thanks to your contributions we now have TWO threads discussing the problem which is far from dead to the many owners still suffering; particularly the owners of 3.0 litre versions who have not had the slightest assistance from Fiat.

 

Antagonistic work, but good work indeed.

 

Nick

[rupert123]

euroserv - 2010-05-06 1:15 PM

 

I should also like to add a note of thanks to Rupert123.

 

Yes, thanks to your contributions we now have TWO threads discussing the problem which is far from dead to the many owners still suffering; particularly the owners of 3.0 litre versions who have not had the slightest assistance from Fiat.

 

Antagonistic work, but good work indeed.

 

Nick

 

Suggest you read AliB post I am certainly not the only one. Note you make no comment on your own change of stance. As for 'should they buy it suggest both you and Brian go back and read my original post on this as it is obvious you have not done so.

[euroserv]

Rupert123,

 

I have read AliB's post and am delighted that she was able to get the necessary repairs carried out quickly and efficiently under warranty. No doubt AliB appreciates all of the hard work that was done by the members of this forum, not least Andy Stothert, which will have facilitated this.

 

This was included in the second point of my earlier post.

 

My position on this has never changed.

 

If you try a second hand vehicle and it exhibits a problem, walk away unless you can get a cast iron guarantee that it will be repaired to your satisfaction and all documentation regarding the repair will be supplied BEFORE you part with your money.

 

If you find a vehicle and it does not seem to have a problem even after reversing up a reasonably steep slope; proceed with caution because there is no guarantee that any vehicle is immune (such is the random nature of the problem). Get a cast iron guarantee from the dealer that if it should become a problem vehicle within a reasonable period of say, 6 months that they will take full responsibility for picking it up, rectifying it and delivering it back to you. Or don't buy it.

 

If you are thinking about a new vehicle it would still seem prudent to avoid the 2.3 6 speed Fiat, because the mods have not been to everyone's liking and the jury is out on the April 09 onwards vehicles that for the most part incorporated the mods from the factory, and there is potentially still an issue and any Peugeot or Fiat 3.0 Manual because neither manufacturer will even accept that there is a problem. The 3.0 Comfort-Matic seems to be the exception. Why? nobody is really sure. Magic, probably.

 

On the other hand you find a new vehicle of any variety and you can try it before you buy and are happy that there is no fault at present, and you feel lucky, and you can impress upon both yourself and the dealer that if a problem develops you are buying the complete vehicle and not a chassis plus a camper body from him, and not the chassis maker, and that you will expect the dealer to sort things out when (if) they go wrong,and that they will fetch it, get it repaired and return it to you while offering you a replacement vehicle then I say buy it!

 

Whatever you choose to do, if it involves a purchase, get all of the agreed points in writing. Works well with Solicitors, does that.

 

Now I don't think that constitutes a change of position, but let's keep talking about it. It keeps the thread at the top of the list without gratuitous bumping.

 

Nick

[flicka]

Rupert

Please accept that there are new members joining the forum, looking to gain information with no previous knowledge and not familiar with the forum's "search" facility.

So bumping this thread assists them finding out that there is a "Potential" problem with the Sevel based Motorhomes.

I consider myself fortunate that I was made aware of the problem by the forum & check for reversing judder.

If not for the thread I may only have checked reversing on the flat & not uphill.

The problem is there, even if only 1% of vehicles are affected & initially Fiat where not the most helpful.

[euroserv]

Rupert123,

 

I must admit to having missed your other comment which would appear to cast some doubt regarding my motives and or integrity. I have no problem with replying to this;

 

A long time ago, one of my service customers mentioned this forum and thought that I might find it interesting and would perhaps like to help people with problems. I looked, liked what I saw and began contributing where I thought it appropriate.

 

I will confirm for the eternally sceptical that I do indeed run 35 or so X250 vans and have only had one incident where a clutch has been destroyed by a vibrating gearbox while reversing up hill. The gearbox survived and because the mileage was about 80,000 at the time I did not see it as a massive problem. Most of the X250 2.3 6 speeds have whined and rattled while even reversing on level ground but so far only one with 150,000 miles on it has required any attention to the internal gears because it was jumping out of 5th.

 

So why am I involved?

 

After contributing to the Judder thread I was inundated with questions about the technical bits of the gearbox, and was even asked to quote for replacement gearboxes by a couple of desperately unhappy owners. As time went by it became quite obvious that while this might not affect everyone, because the boxes were mostly the same but all configurations, lengths and weights seemed to be just as likely to be affected, I started asking questions of my contacts at Fiat. I was not impressed.

 

I have followed the stories so far, and have begun to feel somewhat ashamed that we have not really had any problems. One to us is no big deal. If you only own one and have paid 5 times as much for it; well that's a huge deal!

 

So I joined the campaign to make sure that;

 

a) All owners with problems get some sort of satisfaction.

b) Any used vehicles out there that are affected and have not been fixed do not get palmed off on an unsuspecting buyer.

c) Purchasers become more aware that the contract that they enter into when buying a vehicle of this nature is for a complete vehicle and is with the supplying dealer, not the chassis manufacturer. They must be held accountable if the vehicle is defective and they must offer a very much higher standard of service than they (for the most part) currently do.

 

And anyway; Andy Stothert had done enough, and deserved a break.

 

Until I see evidence that the above matters have been addressed I will continue to do my best to make sure that people are informed of the potential problems, and what to do to avoid them.

 

Do not question my motives or integrity again please. That is downright rude. Enjoy your van. Whether yours is the exception or the rule, it is not relevant.

 

Nick

 

PS. AliB, Did you not learn of this problem from this forum, and did you not go to your dealer armed with the facts, probably Fiat's phone number and because of the tireless work by the originator of the thread found that a fix would be provided. Quickly and efficiently?

 

This did not happen by magic. The purpose of keeping this thread on page one of motorhome matters is so that as many visitors see it as possible. They will also be armed with the facts and can make an informed choice; as you did.

[Brian Kirby]

May I just add, as a non-Fiat owner, how much I have appreciated the comprehensive clarity of Nick's - invariably well written - posts, and the generosity with which he, as a non-motorhomer, has given of his time to benefit others - who can reasonably be presumed unlikely to rush to his premises to hire his vans?

A true "Forum Treasure" you are Nick!  :-D

[AliB]

A good post Nick. I have no problem with keeping this topic on page one provided the posts are informative.

I have previously posted my experiences on the relevant thread way back in 2009. Briefly here they are again as you asked.

I first learnt of the problem through the pages of MMM prior to buying our first van. The dealer dismissed my fears by stating it only effected a few vehicles and I could have an extended test drive. Which I did and it seemed to reverse with no problem. First outing in Wales 2008 due to my inexperience I got us into a situation where I had to reverse a 7+metre 4000Kg round a hairpin. The van was fully loaded at the time, fuel, water, humans and bikes. I just could not get the clutch to take up smoothly and allow a controlled negotiation of the bend. Slipping the clutch got us out of the problem.

Back to the dealer after the holiday and they washed their hand of the problem stating I needed to speak to Fiat. ( they also dismised other faults in the habitation area but that's another story)

Shortly afterwards more news appeared in MMM and following Andy S good work the path was clear to contact Fiat. I joined the Forum shortly after having the modifcations completed.

For a while I tested the van ruthlessly everytime we were out with a full load. If I spotted a steep hill I would have to reverse up it to convince myself there was no recurrence of the problem. I have stopped doing this now.

The only possible problem with the vehicle is the ease at which the drive wheels will loose traction when reversing up a wet grassy slope. Going forwards in second gear you have much more traction. I guess that is a downside of the lower reverse ratio fitted as part of the modifications.

Although I believe it is not helped by running the tryes at the handbook recommendation of 75psi.

I fully appreciated some owners have not had a satisafactory fix from Fiat lets hear from them how they are progressing.

[rupert123]

Well done Nick that is what I call an answer. I was dubious because you appeared to have changed your stance. As you say, in your original posts you stated that you ran your vans without any real problems then suddenly you appeared to be totally against them, this to me seemed strange. You have now explained and I can understand your reasoning, I feel you should try and understand mine. I f you go back over my posts you will see I have always accepted that their was a problem with the 2.3 version of the X250, in fact after conversations with Andy I changed my own order from a 2.3 to a 2.2 five speed in 2008. What I cannot understand is the reaction to anyone with a postive take on the x250. When the original post came up on this thread I gave my honest opinion that I would buy an x250 2.3 if it could be proved that all modifications had been done and treat them with caution. I still no problem with this view and stand by it. The reaction from others was stay away I do not understand this. The x250 is and remains the best M/H base by far and in any case the options if you dismiss it are to small. I simply cannot understand the resistance to it by some on this forum who have no personal experience of it. Provided you take proper precautions on any second hand ones then what is the problem. I do not care what van you buy, if secondhand, you are going to give it a good test so what is the differance. Fiats PR on this, not good, but you as a motor trade person must know their is nothing new in this they are all the same. As for putting a question against your integrity, well not really just your apparent change of stance.

[scotchjock]

I have just tried the search facility which seems to be down at the moment. Has anyone got information on a second gear problem on a 3.0l fiat gearbox? When we went to test and collect our new Dethleffs 'A' class on an Alko chassis, there was a problem with it jumping out of second gear. I have not reversed it yet and would be grateful for any up to date information on the 3.0l gearbox. The dealer wanted me to take it away as it was, and book it to my local fiat dealer. No prizes for guessing my answer.

[jhorsf]

Get yourself another dealer is my advice do not accept this

[Brian Kirby]

scotchjock - 2010-05-08 5:21 PM I have just tried the search facility which seems to be down at the moment. Has anyone got information on a second gear problem on a 3.0l fiat gearbox? When we went to test and collect our new Dethleffs 'A' class on an Alko chassis, there was a problem with it jumping out of second gear. I have not reversed it yet and would be grateful for any up to date information on the 3.0l gearbox. The dealer wanted me to take it away as it was, and book it to my local fiat dealer. No prizes for guessing my answer.

Which was, I hope, "get it fixed yourselves, then demonstrate it to me and, if I am then satisfied, I'll pay you for it".  It is the dealer's job, as the "trader", to supply goods that are of merchantable quality. 

It is probably just a matter of adjustment, but it must be rectified before you accept the van.  There is no general problem with the 3.0 litre engine, or its gearbox, but there are instances of reversing judder with all Sevel based vans, including the 3.0 litre manuals.  The autos, for reasons no-one seems able to explain, seem not to judder.

[scotchjock]

Brian Kirby - 2010-05-09 11:29 AM

scotchjock - 2010-05-08 5:21 PM I have just tried the search facility which seems to be down at the moment. Has anyone got information on a second gear problem on a 3.0l fiat gearbox? When we went to test and collect our new Dethleffs 'A' class on an Alko chassis, there was a problem with it jumping out of second gear. I have not reversed it yet and would be grateful for any up to date information on the 3.0l gearbox. The dealer wanted me to take it away as it was, and book it to my local fiat dealer. No prizes for guessing my answer.

Which was, I hope, "get it fixed yourselves, then demonstrate it to me and, if I am then satisfied, I'll pay you for it".  It is the dealer's job, as the "trader", to supply goods that are of merchantable quality. 

It is probably just a matter of adjustment, but it must be rectified before you accept the van.  There is no general problem with the 3.0 litre engine, or its gearbox, but there are instances of reversing judder with all Sevel based vans, including the 3.0 litre manuals.  The autos, for reasons no-one seems able to explain, seem not to judder.

Thanks for your reply Brian. Yes I told them to get it fixed. Unfortunately, we had travelled 450 miles from Scotland before we found out, and are sitting it out over the weekend to see what the problem is.

[kay]

Hi all,

Just an update to let you know that the motorhome is getting fixed by fiat dealer. Fiat agreed without question to sort it out. Will let you know if good repair before we part with any money.

[scotchjock]

Has there been any postings on tag axle motorhomes having judder problems? My proposed purchase has a 3.0l fiat engine and is 5 ton loaded.