External gas point - where to fit

[mike 202]

The July issue of MMM page 226 suggests the fitting of an external gas point for BBQ's.

This would help to reduce my payload problem, as every little bit helps.

I currently carry 2 gas bottles. one for the motorhome and one for the BBQ. I do not want to keep disconnecting the Motorhome bottle, for safety and hassle reasons, to use on the BBQ.

I spend 2x6 weeks in Spain so use the Cadac BBQ quite often.

So my question is :- What is the best place to fit the gas point, a) the door side, b) the non door side, c) the rear to allow the BBQ to be used either side.

PS. I would have it dealer fitted for safety.

Mike

[Brian Kirby]

On the side where you will most often use the barbecue, or is that too obvious?  Do you have some other concern?

[Guest JudgeMental]

Mine is fitted in skirt below gas locker. I have a long hose so can use cooker either side of van.

 

It can be used as a feed as well? people who over winter in Spain connect a local spanish cylinder via gas point to back feed gas into van system. I am not advocating this because of safety concerns :-S

[mike 202]

Thanks Brian,

Your solution sounds obvious, and taking the Judge's point of view re positioning the point by the gas locker, my concern is that there is a legal/campsite ruling somewhere that the connecting gas hose must not exceed a certain length.

My A/S Windsor has the gas locker on the opposite side to the door, so I would need about 5m of hose to use it on the door side which is my preference. I guess a point between the door and the rear of the van is the most obvious position.

Apart from being carefull not to damage the hose are there any problems forseen??

Do you have a general idea of cost ?

Thanks mike

[Guest JudgeMental]

but if you want it on other side you have to run a gas pipe (always live if you forget to isolate supply:-S) under van? For the amount of times you use a cooker I think a long hose is acceptable. and gas pipe work best kept short.

[Brian Kirby]

So, why not extend rigid gas pipework from the locker, via an isolating valve, under the van, to an outlet on the door side?  There is no need for a very long flexible.  Cost - no idea, sorry!

[BGD]

Save loads of dosh and weight: Buy disposable BBQ's instead from local supermarket as and when you need them?

 

:-D

[LordThornber]

I understand that 3 meters is the recommended limit for flexible gas pipe. It may have changed though since I bought it.

 

Martyn

[smifee]

I had mine fitted by Avonbridge, near Fordingbridge. They always have an advert in the CC magazine.

 

They went through the options with me and as a result it was fitted where they suggested and 5 years have shown that they were right. They have done other jobs on my van including resealing the overcab joint.

 

Excellent workmanship but I find I have to check that they have cleared up properly before I leave the premises. I think the 'lads' love their screwdrivers etc but hate the dustpan & brush. :-D

[Dave Newell]

It could be fitted near the door and teed off the fridge supply.

 

D.

[flicka]

There is usually a Gas manifold close to the Cooker or Fridge, which is often close to the habitation door. This would be the best connection point with internal hard pipe connection to the external BBQ point & only a flexible hose from there on to the BBQ.

 

[MandyAndy]

Just what I was going to say Dave, we had ours fitted by running a T off the back of our grill which is by the door and under the awning.

 

Use it all the time and don't ever need a pipe longer than 2 metres.

 

We were advised to get the kind you can shut off by a tap inside the fitting which we like the idea of.

 

You can find all the different types for fitting on Google or fleabay.

 

Mandy

[Mel B]

As someone who had a 'blow torch' because of a badly installed gas BBQ point I would advise that you only have it fitted from the manifold where the other taps are, with a separate isolation tap which works for the BBQ point only. Make sure they use the correct type of fittings for the installation - ours had not been done properly by a 'well known' dealership, and came apart so that when we stopped after an hour's journey, and put the gas on, when hubby opened the cupboard to get out a new carton of milk where the BBQ point was joined to the rest of the gas pipes, the leaking gas ignighted (probably by a build up of static) and we had a 5ft blow torch ... I kid you NOT!!!!

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=2254&posts=25

 

I think the recommended length for a flexible hose is around metre, the maximum we've ever used is 2 metres.

 

I would recommend the gas BBQ point externally is located on the side with the habitation door, but at least 2 metres away from it so that you can cook on it out of harms way of anyone going in and out of the van and can also sit outside to eat (eg under an awning) without having to move the BBQ out of the way.

[LMC Camper]

Agree it is far better to tee off the internal pipework to a wall mounted BBQ point which has its own isolating tap. Ours is next to the door and then I use a 3 metre hose to the Cadac BBQ unit well away from the door and awning - and it stops greasy splashes on paintwork.

 

My Gaslow fitter explained the rule of flexible hose fitting to me recently. He said that if he fitted a flexible hose then 2 metres was the maximum allowed for a commercial fitter..... but if I fitted the flexible hose I could buy whatever length I needed for convienient cooking BBQ location. so that's what I did! Works well and I can route the hose safely to avoid trip hazards.

[Clive]

Sorry to disagree with Dave but I believe a gas BBQ point should NOT be teed off the fridge supply even though this is what many dealers do. It is better and safer to have another shut off valve added to the main gas manifold (The valves just screw together) then run one length of pipe (no joins) directly to the BBQ point. This way you have no additional joints that may require a new "gas drop" and also a unique shut off valve for the BBQ point which is already serviced by an adjacent gas drop.

 

C.

 

[mike 202]

Mel B,

Just read your post and it gave me the shivers, I have been guilty of accidentally leaving the gas on, but never again.

Clive,

I will follow your advice to the letter and if my dealership cannot or will not fit the BBQ point as you suggest then it will be a no go, and I will probably have to travel from Portsmouth to see Dave Newell.

I have carefully read all of the advice given and am gratefull that this forum has potentially saved me and my loved one from disaster.

Regards to all

Mike

 

[Andy_C]

Mel B - 2010-06-22 8:46 PM

Make sure they use the correct type of fittings for the installation

Assuming that the photo is of your installation, I have to say that I'm shocked that a dealership would have carried out that work. Using fittings designed for copper pipe on steel pipe is just asking for trouble.

 

Although, as has been said, ideally everything should be fed independently from a manifold which incorporates shut off taps, there is nothing intrinsically wrong with running a supply to a BBQ point, or any additional appliance for that matter, from a tee off an existing pipe - providing of course that the correct fittings and appropriate additional shut off tap is used.

 

Andy

[Mel B]

Hi Andy

 

Yup, that was our installation, or bodge job more like. When the Corgi (or whatever they are called now) inspector had a look at it they made them rip everything out and do a proper job - you could probably have run the gas for a whole city through the pipework we ended up with!!! Unfortunately I didn't take any photos of the new installation to do a comparison but it was basically as I, and Clive have said, a properly installed system with it's own independent gas tap.

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

Just one thing.  Mel's experience was the result of gross incompetence.  In reality, it matters not one jot how the pipework is arranged, if the fitter is incompetent, disaster looms.  With that fitter, any arrangement of pipework would have been a potential disaster.

There is a T piece inserted into the gas feed to the main manifold; there is a gas cock between that and the feed to the barbecue point.  All the essential equipment is there.

The tatty old bit of copper tube, and the appalling way it is kinked, should have raised the danger signals: no competent fitter should ever have used tube in that state with compression fittings.  However, it was the connection onto the nice round steel tube that failed, because he hadn't tightened the joint.  Had he tested the installation after he'd "finished", he would have discovered that.

Incompetence, not poor design!

[Dave Newell]

Clive - 2010-06-22 11:16 PM

 

Sorry to disagree with Dave but I believe a gas BBQ point should NOT be teed off the fridge supply even though this is what many dealers do. It is better and safer to have another shut off valve added to the main gas manifold (The valves just screw together) then run one length of pipe (no joins) directly to the BBQ point. This way you have no additional joints that may require a new "gas drop" and also a unique shut off valve for the BBQ point which is already serviced by an adjacent gas drop.

 

C.

 

But the fridge will have a gas dropout anyway Clive so its perfectly acceptable to tee off the supply to it as long as the new connection is above the existing dropout. Your alternative, while perfectly good and in an ideal world would be the "proper" way to do it would cost a lot more in man hours which is probably the biggest part of the installation cost.

 

D.

[Mel B]

Brian Kirby - 2010-06-24 10:46 AM

However, it was the connection onto the nice round steel tube that failed, because he hadn't tightened the joint.  Had he tested the installation after he'd "finished", he would have discovered that.

Incompetence, not poor design!

Not quite. The correct way to do it would have been to removing the nut and olive, put the nut over the pipe, then put the olive on the end of the pipe before offering it up properly to the pipe below the manifold, and tightening the nut up. Unfortunately it appears that the 'idiot' had put the nut with the olive inside partly tightened on the pipe below the manifold and had then shoved the bare end of the pipe up into the nut/olive and tightened it, consequently the olive did not go onto the pipe correctly (it was partially pushed up onto the receiving thread) and, whilst it did hold (for nearly 2 years!), it eventually gave up, the other 2 joints onto the 'T' piece had been done correctly and had some of the 'red' sealing stuff on them too, the joint that gave way did not. It also didn't help that the pipe was 'short' and under pressure to pull itself away and out of the joint. I don't have a clue how it managed to seal for so long, but I assume the extreme heat (41 degree heatwave) caused the metals to contract at different rates and thus allow the olive to finally 'let go' ... hence the leak and the blow torch.This is a photo of the olive and nut you and you can clearly see the damage that had been caused to the olive.

[Brian Kirby]

Not quite sure what you're arguing about here Mel.  However he assembled the components, and I completely agree the way you describe is a very sloppy shortcut (and strictly, jointing compound should not be used with compression joints, though many do, for just this reason.  It disguises latent defects, and can act as a lubricant, facilitating later failure of the joint when stressed.). 

A competent person doing the work, followed by a proper test, would have delivered a sound and safe job.  It is not flawed design, but the flawed execution, that caused the problem.  That was my point, and that point seemed in danger of getting lost in all the detail.

[Guest JudgeMental]

I get my motorhome dealer to do a gas leak check (they have the meter) when they do the yearly damproof check......last year they found a small leak :-S

[Mel B]

Not arguing Brian ... would I DARE with you!!! 8-) You'd tie me up in technical knots without ruffling the hair on your head ... errrr ... possibly batting an eyelid would have been a better turn of phrase!!! :D

 

The point I was trying to make is that the installation was done by a qualified technician when we bought the van from new, so it had had pressure checks done then, and had passed a further two - yes TWO - in the 2 years we'd then owned the van, carried out when the habitation checks were done by them, at 1 and 2 years old - and that's the real worry, it HAD been pressure checked and PASSED! The last one was only a couple of months before it failed if memory serves.

 

Obviously the way he did the installation, albeit wrongly, had actually sealed the installation so it didn't fail the pressure test so I'm not sure how that could have been spotted short of dismantling the installation and checking ... a gas pressure test doesn't necessarily show up bad work.

 

The problem is that you simply do not know for certain how an installation has been done, it is therefore much better to get it done by someone you can definitely trust to do a proper job in the first place, which is why, if we decide to have a BBQ point installed on a van in the future, we'll probably pay a visit to the nice Mr Newell! :-D

[Dave Newell]

Thanks for the vote of confidence Mel :-D . One problem with gas systems and pressure testing is the extremely low pressure that is used i.e. 30millibar. One Bar is 14.5 pounds per square inch (PSI) one millibar is one thousandth of that i.e. 0.0145 PSI multiply that by 30 (30mb) and your gas system is running at 0.435 PSI, less than half a pound per square inch! Test pressure is five times operating pressure at 150mb but five times 0.435 PSI is still only 2.175 pounds per square inch. An asthmatic person can blow higher pressures with his/her mouth.

 

Standard procedure for gas system pressure testing is to pressurise the system to 150mb, then let it stand for 5 minutes to equalise due to temperature changes, top up to 150mb if necessary then leave for a further 5 minutes and check again. A really good system will not lose any pressure in the first five minute period but a small system, for example a micro camper with just a two burner hob, might well lose some due to temperature fluctuations, hence the top up if necessary. A tiny loss of pressure is acceptable in the second five minutes but we're talking a couple of millibar.

 

Having worked on compressed air and hydraulic systems that could run up to 500PSI and 5000PSI respectively I find these low pressures a real PITA.

 

The reality is that the joints don't actually have to be perfect to pass a standard gas test because of the very low pressures involved. If the systems could be checked at say 10 PSI or even one Bar then a poor joint would almost certainly show up. Sadly the valves used on things like cookers etc can't handle such "high" pressures so we run to five times normal operating pressure for testing.

 

Hope this helps, D.