lennyhb Posted July 21, 2010 Share Posted July 21, 2010 Just downloaded Rimor data sheet it is on 3500kg Chassis no mention of unladen weight or payload, I wonder why? If it is the one Mel has found & it's 2009 it is way overpriced 25k tops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silverback Posted July 21, 2010 Share Posted July 21, 2010 were all guessing at where it is? Brian, your post mentioned all were made on fiats..but PP said it was a Tranny.;-) Mel B the link you posted was for a 999 model...PP said it was a 699 model;-) untill PP comes up with a proper ID on model, dealer etc, we will just be speculating on the implications on a rebadge jonathan 8-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted July 21, 2010 Share Posted July 21, 2010 Mel B - 2010-07-21 9:57 PM The Sailer and Superbrig models are the top of their range, the only way they can be 'improved' is to specify Mercs instead of Transits if you've got deep pockets. How much would you have to pay for the equivalent of a top of the range German van with all the bells and whistles .... a lot more than £40k I'd bet. :-S The point is Mel it's badged Nobel-Art and you can buy a new 2010 model in Germany for around £30k and it is not a recognised brand in the UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pickle Pot Posted July 22, 2010 Author Share Posted July 22, 2010 Ok, I was trying not to link traffic from this page to the dealers' page, but for those for whom Google wasn't working (it was there on the first page of results, honest!), this is the link to it http://users.autoexposure.co.uk/vehicle.cfm?Account=SHD1515015&Style=2&Id=AETV96860097&Make=NEW%2DRIMOR&Model=SUPERBRIG%20999%20LIVING&City=Nottingham Sorry - am just rushing to go out and typing too quickly so can't answer all points (will be back later) but is def on a transit base, I was told that it had a payload of 750kg on a 3850 chassis, it is a much nicer van than the Swift Escape 686, for example, which is at a similar price - I've not seen any end lounge vans that are new at 30k, even if they are 2009 ones. And now I'm running out the door - how come this place is addictive enough that I had to check the thread before I left?!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted July 22, 2010 Share Posted July 22, 2010 So it is the one Mel found, I still think it is overpriced for a Nobel-Art. Why not give Palmowski a ring see what their price is for the same model. This van will have come from Palmowski as it is their brand name only sold by them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted July 22, 2010 Share Posted July 22, 2010 Lenny The Palmowski one I can view on their website for 39,995 euros is based on the Fiat 100bhp FWD from what I can tell. Whether the European version of the 999 is the same I don't know, but the Transit that the OP is interested in is on the 2.4 140bhp RWD, 3850kg chassis, which is a much better base, payload and torque etc wise. You've also got to bear in mind that the European version may not have all the bells and whistles that a UK one will have. It also looks like it may be a little bit lower quality than the Superbrigg - Rimor/Kentucky make several different levels of motorhome so the only way to find out for sure how much the exact same model, to the same spec, would be is to do as you say and contact them direct. I suspect, however, that the difference in price would be minimal once you take into account the exchange rate and the cost of importing it, but I am willing to be proved wrong if it saves the OP money!!! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted July 22, 2010 Share Posted July 22, 2010 Mel, Nobal-Art are only made for Palmowski their is no such thing as a Nobel-Art in UK spec., unless Palmowski offer it. The one at 39,999€ comes out at around £32,900 taking into account exchange rate and our lower VAT rate and that's before any haggling. It is also as you say on a Fiat base which is generally a more expensive base vehicle. Cost of importing if 2 of you went out in a car to pick if up under £500 or if 1 person flew about £300. I was only suggesting that the OP ring Palmowski to find out what they can offer. It would also be interesting to know how the dealer came by this van as it is new & unregistered one can only assume he brought it from Palmowski (grey importers often buy from German dealers) in the hope of making a good profit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted July 22, 2010 Share Posted July 22, 2010 lennyhb - 2010-07-22 6:12 PM It would also be interesting to know how the dealer came by this van as it is new & unregistered one can only assume he brought it from Palmowski (grey importers often buy from German dealers) in the hope of making a good profit. I think it is probably old stock, picked up cheap. The new ones look better externally. From a resale point of view the Rimor is a better known make I must of made a mistake earlier because there are nearly 100 2009 on-wards Rimors for sale on www.mobile.de Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flicka Posted July 22, 2010 Share Posted July 22, 2010 lennyhb - 2010-07-22 6:12 PM . It is also as you say on a Fiat base which is generally a more expensive base vehicle. I don't think this can be right, Lenny. Or we would see many more convertors using other manufacturer's chassis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted July 22, 2010 Share Posted July 22, 2010 Only 2 NobelART's on Mobile.de one is a big 5 tonne A class the other is for sale by a caravan dealer. Maybe they have only been branding with the NobelART name for a couple of years so most would probably go back to Palmowski on a trade in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pickle Pot Posted July 22, 2010 Author Share Posted July 22, 2010 JudgeMental - 2010-07-22 7:01 PM lennyhb - 2010-07-22 6:12 PM It would also be interesting to know how the dealer came by this van as it is new & unregistered one can only assume he brought it from Palmowski (grey importers often buy from German dealers) in the hope of making a good profit. I think it is probably old stock, picked up cheap. The new ones look better externally. From a resale point of view the Rimor is a better known make I must of made a mistake earlier because there are nearly 100 2009 on-wards Rimors for sale on www.mobile.de I think the old stock theory's probably right. I did the same search as you yesterday and only picked up three Rimors - perhaps there was a glitch in their search systems. flicka - 2010-07-22 7:28 PM lennyhb - 2010-07-22 6:12 PM . It is also as you say on a Fiat base which is generally a more expensive base vehicle. I don't think this can be right, Lenny. Or we would see many more convertors using other manufacturer's chassis. I was told by a dealer last month that there's no real difference in base vehicle in terms of cost - it just depends on the short term discounts that are being offered. I think I might just go back to the 2009 Roller Team 660 or CI Carioca 746 - their new incarnation(s) have switched to a Fiat base :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted July 22, 2010 Share Posted July 22, 2010 Why? If you're not sure about this particular Rimor/Kentucky/Nobel Art - there are plenty more badged as Rimor and Kentucky out there .... I can tell you they are very well built vehicles, from all the 'vans we've owned to date (with the exception of the Chausson as we've only had it a short time so too soon to say), it was the best quailty furniture etc, equipment level of all. :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted July 22, 2010 Share Posted July 22, 2010 I must admit the superbrig looks a nice finish on the inside..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pickle Pot Posted July 22, 2010 Author Share Posted July 22, 2010 Mel B - 2010-07-22 8:58 PM Why? If you're not sure about this particular Rimor/Kentucky/Nobel Art - there are plenty more badged as Rimor and Kentucky out there .... I can tell you they are very well built vehicles, from all the 'vans we've owned to date (with the exception of the Chausson as we've only had it a short time so too soon to say), it was the best quailty furniture etc, equipment level of all. :-S Yep, this one really did appeal and it's reassuring to hear you speak so highly of their quality, but I simply don't seem to see rear lounge Rimors very frequently and, being the patient sort :$ , I'd quite like to buy one NOW!!! Not that I've been looking nearly a year or anything and feel that the summer is passing me by :$ And I do feel a bit as if I'm perhaps better off avoiding something like this, where the potential risks are flagged from the get-go, given that I am relatively clueless about the whole process and so could easily be convinced by a sharp dealer that wrong is normal, IYSWIM? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pickle Pot Posted July 22, 2010 Author Share Posted July 22, 2010 duplicate post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted July 22, 2010 Share Posted July 22, 2010 Pickle Pot - 2010-07-22 9:21 PM I'd quite like to buy one NOW!!! Not that I've been looking nearly a year or anything and feel that the summer is passing me by :$ And I do feel a bit as if I'm perhaps better off avoiding something like this, where the potential risks are flagged from the get-go, given that I am relatively clueless about the whole process and so could easily be convinced by a sharp dealer that wrong is normal, IYSWIM? OK.....Not sure re last bit but you are right, dealers sense "need" and a desperation to get going and will play you for all its worth! buy in haste - repent at leisure cheap no good - good no cheap If you like the van I would offer £30000 and settle at maybe £33000'ish certainly not much more! You are in and ideal situation as a cash buyer with no PX...I would seriously look to Europe for a better deal. try Palmoski as well, they will discount a lot from advertised price? Germany is a far more competitive market Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 22, 2010 Share Posted July 22, 2010 Have another read of that quote from Barclays Capital. This is a firm (Rimor) that was bought out by a private equity outfit, has had its debt re-structured twice, I quote "In December 2006, the company completed a debt recapitalisation, allowing Barclays Private Equity to realise a substantial portion of its investment whilst retaining its equity stake in the business". In other words BPE seem to have raised loans to enable them get back their 79M Euros. Then, this year, they "restructured" the outstanding debt (the loans they had taken out so that they could get back their initial over optimistic investment) and passed it on the other backers. Barclays seem to have escaped relatively unscathed but they only admit to what they initially put in, so my reading of that report is that Rimor is now saddled with a mountain of debt, thanks to the private equity speculators. I don't know this for a fact, and I may well be reading far too much into the report, but I wouldn't be buying a Rimor product, re-badged or not, under those circumstances, until the dust had settled, and the recession was over with Rimor still trading successfully. As I said, tread soft! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pickle Pot Posted July 23, 2010 Author Share Posted July 23, 2010 JudgeMental - 2010-07-22 11:07 PM If you like the van I would offer £30000 and settle at maybe £33000'ish certainly not much more! You are in and ideal situation as a cash buyer with no PX...I would seriously look to Europe for a better deal. try Palmoski as well, they will discount a lot from advertised price? Germany is a far more competitive market And sadly, given that the dealer turned me down with an offer of 35k, I don't suspect he's going to welcome me with open arms if I pop back with an "improved" offer at 5000 less (lol) Tempting though the reduced price of a German van is, there's just a few too many hoops to jump through ... perhaps I would be braver about it if this was my second van and I felt a bit more confident about the whole process in general. If Brian's gloomy reading of the financial tea leaves are right, I assume that would mean the warranty wouldn't be worth much - though I guess that loops back to the question about who it would actually be with anyway - Rimor or NobelArt ... though the dealer does sell the vehicles with a three year warranty - "Motorhome Sales Warranty work can also be undertaken by us, however with the 3 year European Cover Warranty supplied with most vehicles, work can be undertaken anywhere in the country or the rest of Europe!" So theoretically, if it breaks, they fix it regardless... (I'm such an optimist ;-) ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted July 23, 2010 Share Posted July 23, 2010 If you brought from Palmowski your warranty would be with them I don't no anything about the company but they have around since the 60's and have a several franchises for well known makes including Hymer. On European vans the chassis will only have a 2 year warranty, but it will be a pan European warranty. You do not normally get pan European warranties with the conversion but it does depend on manufacturers & dealers attitude, Brownhills for example make all sorts of excuses and refuse to touch personally imported Hymers, yet on the other side of the channel any Hymer dealer will do warranty work for you. I think Eddie's suggestion of 30k is still a bit high. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted July 23, 2010 Share Posted July 23, 2010 The 100 Rimors on mobile.de where from about £25000 Urbano in Belgium may be worth a look (easier to get to) we will be popping into our dealer in Belgium on the way to Italy week after next, for the yearly damp check. if I had bought a van up North it would be a lot more inconvenient........ http://www.urbano.be/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 23, 2010 Share Posted July 23, 2010 If you want a big van, you'll need a big payload because, apart from other items, the weight of the passengers deducts from that payload. The Italians build big "family" vans, but they frequently have laughable payloads in relation to the number of berths/travel seats. It seems many Italians just hire vans, you seem to see more hire vans on Italian roads and sites than privately owned ones. My impression was that a family will hire a van to visit relatives, drive it to a nearby camp site, not infrequently followed by another family member in a car, decamp to the car, visit the relatives, return to the site in the car to sleep in the van and, after they have done all their visiting, just shuffle off back where they came from. Thus, poor payload is of little to no consequence, but lots of beds is important.You do need to be very careful buying Italian made vans, especially the "built to a price" variants. Laika, Mobilvetta, Wingamm, and Arca, would be the main exceptions. CI and Rollers are Trigano owned, and although marketed throughout Europe, are still, IMO, Italian in concept.No vans are cheap, but the wrong van is by far the most expensive one you can buy. If you intend using your van mainly in UK, you may be better off looking at good UK made vans, which favour the kind of layouts you seem to be looking for. If you think you will use the van mainly abroad, and especially in campsites in southern Europe, then I think the layout you are chasing may have less value than you imagine, because you will be liable to "live" mainly outside the van. The exception would be if you intend staying mainly on aires or similar, where living outside the van, especially in peak periods, is less feasible. However, big van suggests children, which suggests school holidays, which suggests peak periods near the coast, which suggests crowded conditions and, I would imagine, suggests campsites for a main stay. So, your probable pattern of use may well suit a more "continental" style of van with less internal lounging and more focus on sleeping. If so, France or Germany, rather than Italy, will probably be the best sources for your van. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted July 23, 2010 Share Posted July 23, 2010 JudgeMental - 2010-07-22 9:04 PM I must admit the superbrig looks a nice finish on the inside..... Thank goodness someone else thinks its nice!!!!! 8-) I was beginning to feel very very lonely on here and as if I was hitting my head against a brick wall!!!!! :-( When we bought our Rimor I took a heck of a lot of stick off people saying it wasn't high quality, after we'd had a Rapido. This was from people who had never been in one of these, many had only seen the CHEAPER versions such as the Katamarano etc models which ARE cheaper and by default the finish is not to the same quality level. I stress again that this is the top of the Rimor range quality wise and that really does mean better quality, not like some manufacturers who fit the same cabinetry etc in all their models and just tweak the finishes to make them look different and more 'up market'. I've been having a shuftie on the web and came across a price list for Southdowns caravans from October 2009, for their 2010 model range, the cost of this vehicle was shown as over £49,000!!!!! That it NOT an economy van and the fact that the new model now re-badged is £10,000 cheaper means that it is NOT 'only' worth £30,000. If you want to critise the price, that's fine, but please do not knock it simply because you are biased against it for whatever reason. Off to have my tea now and calm down ..... >:-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silverback Posted July 23, 2010 Share Posted July 23, 2010 gonna stick my 2 pennerth in :-D totally agree with mel b, this van is quality, the fittings look well made and sturdy its all leathered up unless i miss read the photos, full fridge, full oven, etc and for 38k its a bargain, and if you dont want it somebody else will! thats for sure!!! but thats my opinion B-) what you need to do PP, is take stock sit down with mr PP and discuss, this van obviously ticks all your boxes, you like it... so its got noble art on it...whoo hoo! so what, take the decals off and stick rimor on it if it makes you feel better :-D the insurance is no problem you just tell em its a noble art by rimor end of. oaktree dealers ... not heard owt bad about them.. they will give you 2 or 3 years warrenty.. so they have to sort things out if anything happens, then after that you will be like the rest of us..YOU ARE ON YOUR OWN!!! its been mentioned "what if manufacturer goes bust" so b*$%&y what.. the stuff in the van is made by other manufacturers fridge-dometic/electrolux...oven=-carver-smev...heating=truma-webasko so its all mendable who cares if its noble art...nobody!! its what you want that matters or are you a person that thinks look at me ive got a hymer/rapido/burstner/winnibago the list goes on!!! go with what your happy with,youve waited a year for this and youve found your van!! so buy it!!!!! who cares what we think, its up to you theres been some good posts on here on this, and alot for you to digest, but at the end of the day its your decision, and if it had a garage..I WOULD HAVE GAZUUMPT YOU (lol) jonathan thats just my opinion...so dont blame me if it all goes t**s up (lol) get it bought and go motorhoming...theres nowt better...go and enjoy :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pickle Pot Posted July 23, 2010 Author Share Posted July 23, 2010 Silverback, you've just made me snort tea at my computer screen :-D You've just said everything in your post that my "go on, do it" head says, and with probably even more forcefulness! You and Minx are both absolutely right, it really is a lovely van and it is only really the Rimor/Nobel Art thing that's giving me pause for thought - not from a label-loving perspective but just because I really couldn't think what the potential consequences could be. Brian - this van has payload aplenty for us (over 700k) so that's not a problem. We'd be using it for a mix of here and abroad and don't have to worry about the school holidays for a couple of years (and the sort of holidays you describe for quite a while longer), so the layout is ideal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 23, 2010 Share Posted July 23, 2010 Pickle Pot - 2010-07-23 9:38 PM .......... Brian - this van has payload aplenty for us (over 700k) so that's not a problem. We'd be using it for a mix of here and abroad and don't have to worry about the school holidays for a couple of years (and the sort of holidays you describe for quite a while longer), so the layout is ideal. Sounds good then, and looks fine. With that payload, it has an MAM over 3,500kg, so I assume you have checked driving licence categories for the drivers? Whose is the warranty? The dealer is in any case liable to put right any faults, warranty or no warranty. The point about the warranty is if the dealer fails - when you would need manufacturer support to get any defects sorted out. I agree with silverback that the gear is separately warranted for at least one year, and should not be a problem. It is the coachbuilt bodywork, and any chassis adaptations, that are the sole province of the converter. For example if there are leaks, or if moulded panels crack. These can be fixed if you go to specialists, or even DIY if not too complicated, you just have to be prepared to accept that risk. Ask them for a damp check and a report before buying, it's been raining a bit recently, so any problems should show up. Besides, isn't there another one in the background on the photo? If you're satisfied on all scores, and the risks don't put you off, go buy, and enjoy. Not sure about that white upholstery though! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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