Campervan hire

[Welshlou]

Hi there,

 

Has anyone been involved in hiring campervans? if so, I'd appreciate some advice! Myself and my dad are thinking of hiring out his campervan and we were wondering if anyone had some good info on the do's and don'ts and whether or not it is a profitable exercise.

 

I was also thinking of purchasing another van at the start of next season to rent out alongside.

 

Any advice or helpful websites etc would be appreciated.

 

Many thanks,

 

Richard.

[flicka]

Hi Richard & welcome to the forum.

This has been discussed on previous threads - (see links below)

General concensus is Don't. But if you still want to go there check out the last thread link regarding Insurance.

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=17618&posts=16

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=16411&posts=8

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=16026&posts=1

 

[Welshlou]

Many thanks Flicka. Man alive everyone is very negative about it! It's making me think three times about doing it, let anone twice!

 

I spoke to one of those hire companies earlier. They take all the bookings for you, arrange the insurance and take a 2000 quid security deposit. They seemed to suggest that it was fairly problem free and that damage rarely happens to vans, due to the hefty deposit. I suppose there is an element of "they would say that", but they did seem genuinely professional and helpful and it looks like a good opportunity.

 

I think I'll do a bit more digging!!

[Guest JudgeMental]

these company only tell you the good stuff not the negative

 

the main problem is insurance. your general motorhome insurance forbids hire and reward...so what happens if the van is written of under the temporary insurance? what do you tell your insurance company? this is just the tip of the iceberg.

 

also if you give the keys to someone and wave them goodbye, you have technically given them permission to take it? and the police may not want to know if they fail to return it? as it may be then a civil matter....

 

but if doing this with 2 vans as a business, you are better of getting a proper commercial policy and set the whole thing up legitimately.

[fjmike]

It may have been said before but if your hiring out a motorhome you have to have no attachment to it at all. I've seen the state of hire vans first hand at work and because they are hired by people who either don't care or can't be bothered. There is a very good reason why most rental companies replace their stock on an annual basis, the vans wouldn't last a second year

[BGD]

I'd STRONGLY advise digging a lot deeper.

 

Such arrangements seem to me like a legal nigtmare just waiting to happen when something goes wrong.

Particularly as in all likelihood they'll be set up on the legal contract basis of "Agency".

Thus the letting company acts as agent. You remain, in law, the principle, responsible for the supply of and state of your MH.

And because it's a commercial venture, you have unlimited liability in both civil and criminal law for any acts or omissions that cause harm/damage/loss/injury.

 

So, you got your planned maintenance programme sorted? logged?

Are you sure that you've done everything reasonably practicable to ensure the health and safety in all reasonably forseeable circumstances of any hirer and anyone else who might be affected or injured via their use of your property? At all times?

Done all your risk assessments? In writing? Recorded and implemented and reviewed regularly all necessary remedial or protective actions?

Done CoSHH assessemnst of all potentially hazardous substances? Explained these to all potential hirers? Can you prove it? Every time?

Etc. Etc. Etc.

 

 

 

These rental type things all sound wonderful............until something goes wrong.

 

Remember please, that this totally isn't about lending your MH to a mate for a couple of days.

You'd be doing it as a completely commercial venture, with all the legal obligations and liabilities that go with that business operation.

 

Mrs Miggins slips a disc because she falls out of bed. She says that the bed in your MH was not fully suitable for her, and wasn't (in her view) sufficiently robust for commecial purpose/wasn't (in her view) sufficiently maintained/wasn't (in her view) sufficiently explained, wasn't (in her view) the right colour, or whatever.

Her no-win-no-fee lawyer comes after......YOU.

And your house. And your savings.

Your costs in any civil claim defence are for YOU to pay. Any idea what a decent barrister costs, per hour, now?

And remember that you can't indemnify yourself in law against for example a H & S conviction in criminal law (which such things can amount to if serious negligence is shown), thus your liability is uninsurable against , and unlimited.

This is why Directors of Companies sometimes really do go to prison for serious H & S breaches....of course it wasn't them personally who failed to do up the bolt that then failed and took Freddies arm off.

But THEY are legally ultimately responsible for setting out, managing and enforcing, a sufficiently robust H & S system to protect in all circumstances, so far as is reasonably practicable, all their employees and anyone else who may be affected by their actions.

 

Sorry to paint such a grim picture, but I do feel that a lot of people enter into such a potentially MASSIVELY costly business ventures with not a clue as to the fact that they are exposing themselves to the risk of losing absolutely everything.

Is the risk (albeit small) of losing your house, your pension, all your savings, and a lot more too, really worth it?

I'd urge you to make as detailed a business risk assessment as possible before diving in; and certainly paying a little money to have a decent commercial lawyer look through any contract you're being invited to sign up to BEFORE you sign it is an essential precaution.

 

 

[FRANKP60]

Hi,I know of someone who hired his van out ,through what he thought was a reputed to be a good company .The van was returned to him 4 days late ,and at 11pm at night ,police had been informed .As it was dark he was unable to check it well ,on checking he found the roof light was missing and the owning was ripped badly .The hire company do not want to know and he his looking to take them to small claims court.My advice also having seen how people used hire vans in New-Zealand is dont.

[Rainbow-Chasers]

The problem with hire is this:

 

There are lots of people that know of lots of people that know lots of people have had a bad experience, and so the legend goes on.

 

There are good and bad management companies - granted.

 

We are often berated in the trade for looking after vans too well, and paying their owners too much. At the end of the day, we are motorhomers too - we would not have our vans treated that way, so why should we treat someone elses badly? No way.

 

Look for a good company, don't be presurised - after all, if you have to chase them to find out the info, or call them to take up their offer - then they are probably good.

 

Tales of health and safety, legal prosecutions are nonsense. Your vehicle is under the custody or control of the management company, and they will provide insurance for all vehicles with liability cover.

 

The fearsome tales will have their base somewhere, as do tales of gassing robbers and the like - but par for the course, they are not!

 

Our vans last 5 years - and STILL the dealer is amazed that they are hire vans....because we look after them, we check our customers, and spend time with them showing them the ropes.

[Guest JudgeMental]

FRANKP60 - 2010-07-27 7:30 AM

 

Hi,I know of someone who hired his van out ,through what he thought was a reputed to be a good company .The van was returned to him 4 days late ,and at 11pm at night ,police had been informed.

 

Not a police matter...they wont want to know. you give them the keys, end of story, if something goes wrong it is a civil not criminal matter *-)

 

was at a motorhome repairer this week to have a warranty repair on leaking window, there were 2 campers in there from same hire company....why is this? I naively asked, the chap laughed and said they are back in all the time :-|

[BGD]

"Tales of health and safety, legal prosecutions are nonsense. Your vehicle is under the custody or control of the management company, and they will provide insurance for all vehicles with liability cover."

 

 

 

 

 

And the list of professional legal qualifications that you have amassed and now rely upon in order to make such a sweeping, definitive and expert legal pronouncement, regardless of all and any specific UK legislation, regulation, or Common Law duties; and completely regardless of specific contractual and behavioural circumstances, are........................?

 

Sorry, but I really do think that this is dangerously misleading legal advice.

 

 

 

 

 

[Rainbow-Chasers]

I have a panel of judges, barristers and high end solicitors on tap to make sure everything is covered - and not just anyone, the UK's best!

 

They have passed the paperwork, systems, proceadures and insurances, training and all to do with the hire of motorhomes. They are sworn to represent me should any action be taken against me, and as a show of confidence, will do so gratis on the proviso the case takes no longer than 6 years.

 

Good housekeeping, good maintenance and and proceadures are the key to a safe environment. You can only do your best, and cover the rest!

 

 

[Guest JudgeMental]

Hmmm........What are you on about here? you are a hire company hiring out your own vehicles? yes or no?

 

If yes, why are you contributing misinformation to a thread concerning hiring out privately owned vans through a 3rd party and the hazards thereof *-)

 

if you are a private hire intermediary your web site says nothing off this, so much for being open and above board :-S

[Bazza454]

JudgeMental - 2010-07-30 6:45 PM Hmmm........What are you on about here? you are a hire company hiring out your own vehicles? yes or no? If yes, why are you contributing misinformation to a thread concerning hiring out privately owned vans through a 3rd party and the hazards thereof *-) if you are a private hire intermediary your web site says nothing off this, so much for being open and above board :-S

Yup, a motorhome hire company, their website is currently taking bookings for summer 2009........say no more...... 

http://www.rainbow-chasers.co.uk/news.htm

[BGD]

I'm a tad intrigued.

 

 

The "Rainbow Chaser" motorhome hire website includes the following statement:

 

"The company shall not under any circumstances be liable to make any payment to the hirer in respect of, or to indemnify the hirer against loss, injury or damage sustained by the hirer or any third party as the result of the presence, or the use of the vehicle or as a result of any defects therein and in taking delivery of the vehicle the hirer shall have deemed themselves satisfied in all respects that it is in proper and roadworthy condition. Use of the roof/rear ladder of the vehicle is entirely at the hirers' own risk and is not recommended, although built to take reasonable weight, the surface may be slippery. The company does not accept for any damage to the hirer or any third party as set out above."

 

 

 

 

 

 

But large sections of this "Disclaimer" are simply legally wrong: a business CANNOT escape liability for any act or omission it commits with regard to it's customers.

This is covered by the English Common Law principle of Tort under Contract Law; and also reinforced by more recent legislation, notably the "Health and Safety at Work and Related Premises" enabling Act of 1974; and the subsequent regulations made under that Act.

 

 

The final sentence in their disclaimer isn't a sentence, makes no sense, and is anyway just illegal. You cannot escape your potential legal liability by simply sticking in a disclaimer to try to put off claims. It has zero legal weight; and judges look upon such "sharp practice" very dimly.

 

The other Hire Terms are also a challenging lawyers dream.

 

 

 

Suffice to say that any customer suffering loss (eg through a hire vehicle not being ready/in perfect condition) or injury from any consequence of hiring such a vehicle or through using it, will go straight to a lwayer who will advise that this Disclaimer isn't worth the paper it's written on, and proceed to sue for no-win-no-fee damages.

 

I say this NOT as a specific against this Company, (I wish them success) but simply to try to illustrate what a complex thing the law really is in this area; and how little an understanding most non-specialist have of the potential financial risks they are laying themselves open too.

 

And remember that REGARDLESS of whatever insurance you as a Company THINK you have, you CANNOT insure against being found guilty of any form of criminal action - including negligence (and increasingly Judges are now finding in cases of injury through negligence that the burden upon the supplier to avoid a Common Law negligence crossing the line into Criminal negligence is heavier and heavier).

 

It will also be very rare that any small Company has taken out sufficiently comprehensive insurances to cover all the costs of defending claims from customers at anything above County Court level.

Reason? Because such additional levels of insurance are horrendously expensive......because such claims are horrendously expensive.

Your barrister can successfully defend a personal injury/negligence/breach of Safety Legislation/breach of adequate Safety Management System regs case, in the High Court or Crown Court but you can still find your un-insured legal/barrister costs have run into hundreds of thousands of pounds. You pay these. Personally.

 

You kill or maim a customer through any aspect of your business activities?

You go to prison. You. Personally.

You cannot hide behind a "Limited" Company status, as liability in such circumstances "punches through the veil of incorporation" to attach to the Directors of the Company.

 

 

As I said in an earler post: Business is a great fun game, and no-one worries at all about this boring legal stuff................ until something goes wrong.

 

 

[Rainbow-Chasers]

I must admit, particularly the end piece that the lawyers added on is disliked and makes little sense to me, but the terms are just a very insignificant part of the process that is much larger than just terms and conditions.

 

The old promo on the website is still there as the designer is a nightmare, thus the website will be replaced. The reason we do not promote the hire of third party vehicles is due to the fact that we do not wish to be over-run with them, as we put alot of work into those vehicles. I would spend all my life checking vehicles all over the country for the low carbon drive - which is counter-productive to running the business with safety of customers and owners & the vehicles being paramount.

 

I check quite a few PRIVATELY OWNED vehicles that are in horrific condition compared with our own! There is just no way on earth I would risk hiring them out, or expect anyone to pay to use them. So many owners are left disappointed when I refuse to hire their vehicles. 90% i have to bring up to our hire vehicle standards.

 

Any vehicle hired through us is serviced and check on a regular basis, and is checked for safety every 6 weeks. Again this is not only to prove that vehicle is safe, and that we have done our best to ensure such - but means that the customer is safe. That is what matters!

 

You cannot be completely safe in such a business these days - you can only prove that every aspect has been checked, and is safe in the vehicle, training and equipment, back-up and safety proceadures - and that is all you can do. This minimises risk of negligence. To the point where we even have a duty of care to your pet, should you wish to take it...we have to meet that pet, ensure it will be comfortable and train you on how to look after your pet - mad but we have to do it!

 

We are probably the only self drive hire company around with well over a decade of no claims discount still intact. This is because we do our utmost to protect the customer, the owner and the vehicles - if that means we make less profit - then so be it!

 

We would rather someone has a fantastic holiday and without incident - so far, it has cost us vast amounts of money to ensure this - but i would rather keep every aspect safe and secure, than make profits and run.

[BGD]

"I must admit, particularly the end piece that the lawyers added on is disliked and makes little sense to me, but the terms are just a very insignificant part of the process that is much larger than just terms and conditions."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi there again -

 

Was it really commercial contract lawyers who wrote your hire conditions?

Really?

 

'Cos if so, you should be firing them, naming and shaming them, complaing to the Law Society to get them Disbarred; and demanding your money back at once.

I can't believe that any competent lawyer would ever have written the legal and grammatical nonsense that is the final paragraph of your Disclaimer......and which, incidentally, leaves you open to a greater likelihood of claims than a Disclaimer that had been competently drafted in accordance with Common Law and Legislation.

 

Perhaps you could let us know which Law Firm wrote the Conditions of Contract that you are using with your Customers, so we can all avoid them in future........

 

 

 

 

 

Surely, in reality, the Hire Terms are not "an insignificant part of the process"......they are at the very core, the very heart, of the process!

That's what the Customers are relying on when they give you their money!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Your Hire Terms as written at the moment) alledge that you have the right to fail to provide service without liability for compensation.....

"

If for whatever reason the hired motor-home is not available to the hirer on the day of collection the company will endeavour to source an alternative vehicle with equivalent or higher specification. In this instance, no additional charge will be made to the hirer. If this is impossible then the hire amount will be refunded in full and the contract of hire terminated. This is the extent of the company's' liability in this case."

 

The last two sentences are wrong in law, and illegal.

Your Companies liability does not stop there; you are legally responsible for paying any and all "Restitution Costs" to customers in the event of you failing to provide the service that you had legally contracted to do.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Your Hire Terms (as written at the moment) alledge that you have the right to refuse to refund the £1250 deposit to any customer:

 

"A security deposit of £1250 is taken to cover any damage to the motor-home or its' contents or equipment. When the motor-home is returned it will be inspected and once deemed to be in satisfactory condition as agreed, the deposit will be returned in full, either by card or cheque."

 

"In satisfactory condition as agreed"?

As agreed between who? The implication is that unless BOTH parties agree that the vehicle is in "satisfactory condition", you have the right to withold all/as much of that £1250 as you wish to.

The Unfair Contract Terms Act of 1977 makes such one-sided terms illegal.

 

 

 

 

 

I could go on and on through the entire document.

These Hire Terms weren't written by a Lawyer.

They've been cobbled together by someone who knows nothing about UK Contract and Commercial and Consumer Law.

They put your Company at big financial risk, and they seek to bind customers to illegal duties and limitations of your responsibilities and liabilities to them. Most of your limitation terms as written are completly unenforceable because of their unduly onerous nature. A judge would strike them out immediately because of this, leaving you exposed to the entire customer claim.

 

 

 

 

I'm sorry to be having a poip at you over this.....but I feel your earlier advice to people about such business liabilities and risks being "nonsense" was completely wrong, and very dangerous.

 

 

 

 

 

So once again I urge people to BE CAREFUL.

Running a business is NOT a game.

It is a legal enterprise, with a whole raft of legal duties and responsibilies. And in Court ignorance is no excuse in commercial/contract/safety law.

Take proper, qualified, professional legal advice, in advance and throughout.

The cost of doing so is honestly but a drop in an ocean of the possible gigantic costs of not having done so.

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest JudgeMental]

"Best lawyers and barristers in the land" What a crock of s**te! Cobbled together by a numpty more like......

[Brian Kirby]

Let's just take it as read that this is a well run company, with an excellent record, that has not, to date, had its Ts & Cs closely examined by m'learned friends.  Let us also earnestly hope that continues to be the case but that, just in case m'learned friends should have occasion to look closely at these Ts & Cs, they will first take some proper advice on the legality of what they say.  Either the web version has been carelessly transcribed from the original, or the lawyer who drafted them has a somewhat eccentric approach to the law, apart from spelling and punctuation!

In entering into a contract, a person has a right to rely upon claims made by the trader as to the nature of their offer, and the extent of their expertise.  Internet sites advertise such claims and, in the absence of anything to the contrary elsewhere in the contract, in the event of a dispute, are liable to be cited as a part of the contract.  Publishing conditions that are unenforceable, legally inept, unintelligible, and in breach of statute law is, to put it mildly, a bit rash.

IMO, it would a good start to take down the Ts & Cs as currently presented on the website, and get a properly drafted, correctly spelt, and (as is traditional :-)) un-punctuated version as a .PDF file that is sent in response to enquiries to be signed to form the contract. 

They still need to be sorted so that they are enforceable and within the law, but at least they would not then be sitting on the website as a disincentive to treat!  Only those with little to no appreciation of what they actually mean, inveterate optimists, or lawyers, could possibly sign up to those terms.  Should the worst happen, these Ts & Cs are liable to become a commercial suicide pill!  I somewhat think this string should be now pulled, but I think Rainbow Chasers need to request the mods to do that, to protect their own interests.

[MandyAndy]

Rainbow I would give up, they know where else you post and you won't ever win on here!!!!

[Brian Kirby]

I'm sorry, but I don't think this last post at all helpful.  There are clear deficiencies in parts of the Ts & Cs of the hire agreement as published on their website.  These deficiencies are liable, at some stage, to come back to bite the company.  It is not something they should duck, or run away from and hide.  Ultimately, they could even bankrupt the firm. 

What "they" (which includes me), have been trying to point out is that their advice, to date, based on their own website, appears to have been flawed (or has possibly been overtaken by changes in legislation), and in their own interests they need to get it straightened out before the worst happens.

I don't think any of us have been treating this as a game, nor have we been playing "barrack room lawyer" for our own gratification: it is a serious attempt to draw someone's attention to something that might, under the wrong circumstances, threaten their company, and their livelihoods.  If they wish to discount the risks, that is for them, but for them alone, to decide.

[MandyAndy]

Sorry Brian nothing about what you and others are advising you are probably totally correct and knowing you it will be.

 

I was just a silly girl who should know better!!!!

 

But I think most regulars will understand.

 

Mandy