The Prime Minister's announcement

[Andy_C]

Derek Uzzell - 2010-08-21 9:51 AM

I'm a France-visiting, motorhome owning, parish councillor and, if you wanted an 'aire' installed in this area (unlikely given how rural it is), you'd need to begin by providing a convincing business case to justify the benefits and to identify where the funding would come from.

In many cases little or no funding would be required since the basic requirement would be for local parking regulations to be amended to allow sleeping, cooking, etc in motor caravans at a designated location, which could easily be an existing parking area.

 

There's a lot of twaddle talked on forums about French aires, "gens de voyage", etc. but, as far as I can see, the French aires network only pays for itself globally. Some aires are in places where it's predictable that motorcaravanners staying there will spend money in the local community, but many aires very definitely aren't. If it's to be claimed that the large network of French aires encourages foreign motorcaravanners to visit that country, then that's undoubtedly true. But I can't see a few 'stop-overs' scattered around the UK doing the same thing.

You have to start somewhere..

 

Good luck with this, but I'm sure a small petition won't do much good. If you really want a network of 'stop-overs' in the UK, then you'll need to have lots of competent, dedicated people prepared to spend time, effort (and a fair bit of their own money) working hard together towards that end.

It is certainly a problem that the efforts put in to establishing stopovers are very fragmentary. The club best placed to work towards this is the Motor Caravanners Club, but apart from a few individuals its only real interest is rallying.

 

I would happily join a campaigning association that was dedicated to furthering the interests of motorhome owners, is there one?

 

Andy

[John J Thompson]

It is now a month since this issue was posted and so far it has generated 105 comments and has been supported by 98 votes with a rating of 4.6 out of 5.

 

This is not a great number considering the number of Motor Caravans registered in the UK and the amount of comment the issue generates on this and other forums alone. If this is to be taken seriously we need many more Motorhome users to register on the "Your Freedom" website and support this by rating it, as well as commenting.

 

http://yourfreedom.hmg.gov.uk/restoring-civil-liberties/motor-caravan-aires-and-wild-camping-in-suitable-locations

 

I agree with Derek Uzzell that we do need to get together and cooperate in promoting this issue. We already have a number of competent people, working independently promoting this issue, by contacting local authorities but also many more who write to a council and put the issue forward without any support from others who have been down this road before them. We do need to approach this in a business like manner.

 

We have existing clubs but they do not seem interested in promoting Aire type stop overs in the UK.

 

I have been working on a document to support approaches to Local Authorities and will be happy to forward by email a copy to anyone interested in reading it for comments and criticism. If we can approach councils with a uniform approach we stand more chance of achieving our goal.

 

I know Andy and Graham have in the past approached just about every authority themselves and have had some successes.

 

You can contact me by PM on here with an email address and I will send a copy to you.

 

If we keep on asking someone may listen in the end.

 

John

[John J Thompson]

QUOTE: I would happily join a campaigning association that was dedicated to furthering the interests of motorhome owners, is there one? END QUOTE:

 

 

We could always start one Andy

 

John

[Clive]

What is the Motorcaravan Owners Club for?

 

C.

 

[John J Thompson]

Clive - 2010-08-21 5:23 PM

 

What is the Motorcaravan Owners Club for?

 

C.

 

Good question Clive.

 

I am a member.

 

I have contacted them, as have others, on this issue and have not received even an acknowledgement, never mind a reply.

 

John

[Andy_C]

John Thompson - 2010-08-21 5:19 PM

 

I would happily join a campaigning association that was dedicated to furthering the interests of motorhome owners, is there one?

 

 

We could always start one Andy

 

John

 

Anyone interested in helping to form such an association please contact John... :-)

 

Andy

[Brian Kirby]

The underlying problem, I think, is that councils assume the whole thing will cost them dear and cause trouble.  For local businesses to benefit, and so jump on the bandwagon, there have to be suitable businesses nearby.  Many or our towns have sprawled with extensive suburbs, having their commerce only in the centre, where parking spaces are at a premium, and many of our villages lack the necessary baker, village shop, or even a pub.  The benefits are difficult to demonstrate.

However, I do just wonder if the Chambers of Commerce might be enlisted, since councils seem to listen fairly attentively to them: I think it's probably those high business rates.  They represent those most likely to benefit from any resulting increase in trade.

Some time back I suggested pubs as possible locations for motorhome stopovers.  Informally, if one asked an individual landlord whether he'd object to a van overnighting on his car park, I'd think quite a few would agree if one were using his establishment. 

Maybe the Licensed Victuallers Association might be persuaded to canvass their members for those willing to give it a go on an experimental basis.  This is not camping, but overnight parking, and as most pubs have car parks, I can't really see why, on private land, the presence of the odd motorhome should cause trouble.

The main problem, it seems to me, is getting the first few up and running as examples.  If that hurdle could be jumped, and the result proved satisfactory, others would surely see the benefit and follow. 

For what it is worth, I think out of town pubs may well offer a fair chance of getting some kind of network established.  Many have suffered reduced turnover due to drink driving restrictions, so turning up with your own accommodation might offer them that bit of extra trade they would value.  After all, the longer you stayed, the more, potentially, you'd spend!  It would also give the stopovers a uniquely British angle, and maybe a greater appeal to overseas visitors.  Areas around channel ports would seem the most productive areas to start, capturing some Brits as we to-and-fro across the Channel, and maybe enticing foreign vans over to try us out.

I recently stayed on Camping Club sites at Salisbury and Canterbury, and was amazed at the number of foreign vans turning up.  French, German, Spanish, Dutch, Austrian, even Italian, vans were all there, and the wardens at both sites reported the numbers were unexceptional.  Offer these visitors the alternative of a cheaper, more hospitable, quintessentially English, evening in a pub, and who knows what might follow?

[Porky]

Brian Kirby - 2010-08-21 7:25 PM

 

Offer these visitors the alternative of a cheaper, more hospitable, quintessentially English, evening in a pub, and who knows what might follow?

 

Like this

 

http://www.practicalmotorhome.com/news/pub-stop-scheme.html

 

 

[John J Thompson]

Good idea Brian. but we must also remember the 28 day rule applies to the use of a pub car park and only one van at a time unless the holding is over 5 acres then a max of three.

 

The exemption for being in the curtilage of a dewlling house would not apply to a pub car park as these are business premises.

 

The C&CC / Practical Motorhome Night Stop Scheme is exemption based just like all of the other exemted CL & CS sites.

 

John

[John J Thompson]

Brian Kirby - 2010-08-21 7:25 PMSome time back I suggested pubs as possible locations for motorhome stopovers.  Informally, if one asked an individual landlord whether he'd object to a van overnighting on his car park, I'd think quite a few would agree if one were using his establishment. 

Maybe the Licensed Victuallers Association might be persuaded to canvass their members for those willing to give it a go on an experimental basis.  This is not camping, but overnight parking, and as most pubs have car parks, I can't really see why, on private land, the presence of the odd motorhome should cause trouble.

There seems to be a bit of confusion over what is camping and what is parking. This idea of using pub car parks as stopovers has been established by another group claiming it is parking not camping.The 1960 Act does not specify camping or parking. It deals with stationing a caravan for human habitation. A Motor home is a caravan under the terms of the act. Living, eating or sleeping in the vehicle is habitation.

Licensing of caravan sites1.—(l) Subject to the provisions of this Part of this Act, No occupier of land shall after the commencement of this Act cause or permit any part of the land to be used as a caravan site unless he is the holder of a site licence (that is to say, a licence authorising the use of land as a caravan site) being in force as respects the land so used.

29.—(l) In this Part of this Act, unless the context otherwise Interpretationrequires— "caravan" means any structure designed or adapted for human habitation which is capable of being moved from one place to another (whether by being towed, or by being transported on a motor vehicle or trailer) and any motor vehicle so designed or adapted,

So using the definition in section 29 there is no difference between a sleeper cab of a waggon or a Motor home they are both vehicles adapted for human habitation.With a few specific exceptions, detailed in the Act, inhabited caravans must be on a camp site.This is why we need to get the 1960 Act revised if we wish to be able to park and sleep in Motorhomes at locations other than licenced caravan, or exempted, sites. The person using the caravan is not commiting an offence. It is the person owning that land and permitting its use, that can be fined. Local Authorities are the enforcing body.Under the same act Local Authorities are able to set up places where caravan may be occupied, without the need for a site licence.John

[Porky]

John Thompson - 2010-08-22 8:26 AM

 

 

This is why we need to get the 1960 Act revised if we wish to be able to park and sleep in Motorhomes at locations other than licenced caravan, or exempted, sites. The person using the caravan is not commiting an offence. It is the person owning that land and permitting its use, that can be fined. Local Authorities are the enforcing body.

 

John

 

 

Would it not be possible to find an MP who is a motorhomer and would submit a private members bill. The Daily Express are running a campain to get BST extended and there will be a PMB in October. Good luck John it really looks as if you have the bit between the teath, I fear your biggest obstacle will be lethargy amongst us folks>:-)*-)

 

Roy Fuller

[John J Thompson]

Porky - 2010-08-22 9:01 AM

 

John Thompson - 2010-08-22 8:26 AM

 

 

This is why we need to get the 1960 Act revised if we wish to be able to park and sleep in Motorhomes at locations other than licenced caravan, or exempted, sites. The person using the caravan is not commiting an offence. It is the person owning that land and permitting its use, that can be fined. Local Authorities are the enforcing body.

 

John

 

 

Would it not be possible to find an MP who is a motorhomer and would submit a private members bill. The Daily Express are running a campain to get BST extended and there will be a PMB in October. Good luck John it really looks as if you have the bit between the teath, I fear your biggest obstacle will be lethargy amongst us folks>:-)*-)

 

Roy Fuller

 

OK folks does anyone know if their local MP is a Motor caravaner?

 

I have been working on a document to send to Local Authorities, Tourist Boards, Chambers of Trade, etc. MPs now on the list.

 

AndyC has fed back some suggestions and is interested in being part of a group to further this proposal. Is there anyone else who is willing to chip in with their ideas as help promote the issue as part of the group.

 

If so PM me

 

John

[Brian Kirby]

John Thompson - 2010-08-22 8:26 AM .......... With a few specific exceptions, detailed in the Act, inhabited caravans must be on a camp site. This is why we need to get the 1960 Act revised if we wish to be able to park and sleep in Motorhomes at locations other than licenced caravan, or exempted, sites. The person using the caravan is not commiting an offence. It is the person owning that land and permitting its use, that can be fined. Local Authorities are the enforcing body. Under the same act Local Authorities are able to set up places where caravan may be occupied, without the need for a site licence. John

Thank you John.  I suspect there would be an outbreak of panic at the prospect of allowing motorhomes to park, literally, anywhere - far too libertarian!  :-) 

However, since Local Authorities already have the power to licence caravan sites on their own land, and can do this (within the limitations of the Act) at will, the amendment required seems fairly minor. 

That, in the case of vehicles registered as a Motor Caravans, Local Authorities should have the additional power to licence the use of parking facilities on private land for overnight occupation of such vehicles, subject to a maximum of (say) three such vehicles being present at any one time.  As a safeguard against abuse, the applicant to agree to be bound by the terms of the licence, and the Local Authority to be satisfied that the facility will be properly managed, and will not cause nuisance.

I wonder, however, how Practical Motorhome have managed to get their scheme implemented?  It is on a parallel path, so maybe a pooling of resources might help.  I'm still inclined to think a trade association such as the Licenced Victuallers might put their weight behind a proposal that would benefit their rural members and, by allowing occupation of motor caravans on their car parks, remove the likelihood of them being driven away from a pub.  That seems to me to be an, albeit small, public good.

[Andy_C]

Brian Kirby - 2010-08-22 7:00 PM

I wonder, however, how Practical Motorhome have managed to get their scheme implemented?  It is on a parallel path, so maybe a pooling of resources might help.  I'm still inclined to think a trade association such as the Licenced Victuallers might put their weight behind a proposal that would benefit their rural members and, by allowing occupation of motor caravans on their car parks, remove the likelihood of them being driven away from a pub.  That seems to me to be an, albeit small, public good.

 

The Practical Motorhome Nightstop Scheme is a joint venture with The Motor Caravanners Club, the locations apply to the magazine (I think it's Sarah Wakely that coordinates it) and the details are passed on to the club who inspect and authorise the location as one of their CL sites.

 

The pubs angle has already been covered by Kevin Bird's Motorhome Stopover club, www.motorhomestopover.co.uk He has something like 400 pubs on his listing. The problem, as has already been pointed out, it that these locations are neither licenced campsites nor exempted, so they run the risk of falling foul of the 1960 Act.

 

Whilst both of these initiatives are welcome, John's and my main objective is to try to influence local authorities to allow motorhomes to park overnight in suitable places which they control. In many cases it would simply mean a small amendment to parking regulations.

 

Of course, not everyone wants to stay on a car park overnight, but some do, and it would be good to have a larger variety of places to stay.

 

As an example, we were in Upton on Severn last Monday night, the Malvern Hills District council allows HGV and motorhome overnight parking at the Hanley Road Car Park. It's just across the road from the river and a couple of minutes walk into the town, there were 4 other motorhomes overnighting there. We spent about £50 a town which we wouldn't even have visited had it not been for the overnight parking facility. The same goes for Machynlleth, which we visited mid-week, (Powys allows motorhomes to stay for one night in seven on many of its car parks) we were able to stay almost in the centre of the town where we had a meal and visited a few pubs in the evening.

 

Andy

 

[Tomo3090]

The vast majority of motorhomes have on board facilities that allow us to go for, an average, of two to three days without needing to top up water tanks or empty the loo. The waste tank can be emptied quite safely virtually anywhere if you use your common sense and intelligence.

 

A layby could be used for an overnight stop. Just do what trucks do, arrive late afternoon-ish and move on first thing, or at least have your curtains open early and move on after the rush hour.

 

If you ask at a garage when fuelling up many will allow you to top up your water tank and some will allow the emptying of the toilet cassette, especially if you have a SOG and explain no chemicals are involved.

 

If you need to stop somewhere for a night or two you could take advantage of the extensive CL/CS site network. I appreciate the need to join a club is "officially" required but I've been to quite a few where the mention of a membership card hasn't come up. But even so, we are members of all three clubs, the costs, spread out over the year and depending how much you use your van, can equate to the cost of many aires throughout Mainland Europe.

 

If you still want to maintain the "freedom" a van can offer you can just call at a club site and pay about a fiver and use their facilities for three hours. Plenty of time to top up, dump and shower!

 

I think sometime we can tend to make a situation more complicated than it is when keeping a low profile and using old fashioned curtesy we can achieve our motorhome needs safely, at reasonable cost and within the law, (legal and moral).

 

It wouldn't suit everyone all the time and some would never dream of staying somewhere that wasn't an all singing, all dancing site, but a great many could, and probably do use our vans the same way over here as we do in France.

 

We're off on a two month tour of Southern England and Wales starting a week on Thursday and we intend to do it in a similar way to that described above. I'll let you know how we get on. But just in case please have money ready to bail us and the van out of chokey!

[sheer lunar-see]

Would be a great idea if they got something up and running ready for the olympics, perhaps a word in Boris's ear might not go amiss, you'd only have to mention the "money" word and he'd listen in !!!

[John J Thompson]

sheer lunar-see - 2010-08-23 12:19 PM

 

Would be a great idea if they got something up and running ready for the olympics, perhaps a word in Boris's ear might not go amiss, you'd only have to mention the "money" word and he'd listen in !!!

 

Just a bit of a problem with the LEZ £200 in and £200 out to use an Aire is a bit expensive.

[Derek Uzzell]

In one respect this 'stop-over' subject is like the Citroen/Fiat/Peugeot juddering thing - it's the type of large, complex, long-term issue that internet forums don't handle well. In both instances benefit would be gained from having a website dedicated to the subject where interested parties (in this case, motorcaravanners, MPs, local authorities, clubs, etc.) could gain a 'Big Picture' of what's going on.

 

(There's also a piece in MMM September 2010 (page 89) headed "Camper Ban" relating to the free overnight motorcaravan parking schemes introduced last year at two South Devon resorts and now scrapped. It's worth reading this article, as it touches on many of the potential difficulties involved in implementing such schemes.)