generators

[silverback]

rapidoman,

to your original post... clarke do descent genneys at

http://www.clarketools-uk.com/1-kw-inverter-generator-2574-0.html

it produces pure sine wave which is better for the laptop and is in your price bracket and if thats not cheap enough look on ebay or amazon or google it differant prices will come up

on the other subject..ie the genny bashers... :-D

i would like to say i have a genny.. but i use it responsibly ie not on sites or cl's i use it proper wild camping not with anybody near and i use it when i go to the british superbike meets (and believe me some of them monkeys have drax power station going :-> ) and they are useful to have, and they dont smell, and they are cheaper than solar etc, and if use curtiously there is no problem, and on the green issue..people drive there vans to where they are going... so just say you were nearer so i run this to make up for the emmissions they used getting there :-D (said tongue in cheek)

jonathan

ps

tin hat ...check

hatches down......check

dogs an cats in...check

her in doors...check

FIRE AWAY (lol)

[Guest peter]

Way2Go - 2010-08-19 8:09 AM

w1ntersun - 2010-08-18 4:45 PM Hi, I know its my personal taste but I hate the things. We go away for the peace and quiet and having a genny running kills it for me.

Agree completely - hate the blasted things droning on and on.

We recently had a tugger parked very close to us for a 3 day event.  Tugger owner decides to run his . . . so he could "charge my battery!!"  It was O.K. for him though because the genny was outside around the back with all his plumbing - right in our hearing line.

We asked him whether he'd like to put it in his awning so he could have the pleasure of hearing it but he declined on H&S grounds.  But never turned it off.

I guess the people who buy them are like people who own yappy dogs.  They go unconscious whenever the thing emits a noise.

I'm sorry to say this but if anyone needs 240 volts for a medical device then you should seek a hookup.

The trouble is, people who say 'live and let live' and 'it's a free country' are usually the ones who want to inflict their loud music, yappy dog or genny on the rest of us.  You never hear someone sat quietly reading a book say these things.

Sore point - oh yes.

With respect, the o/p didn't ask anyone if they approve of gennies or not. So, why is it that whenever someone asks a question concerning them they get a diatribe of disgust and personal opinions aimed at them. If you find them so dissagreeable then ignore the thread.

[Guest peter]

ned - 2010-08-19 5:49 PM

 

HI,

 

I have never read such pompous rubbish in all my life. I will seek you all out and pull out my 10kw generator, mount it directly in front of your van and turn it on full blast. Now as this is a free country I would be quite within my rights so to do, but as I am a kind and considerate person I usually call round , let you know at what time I intend to switch it on and for how long. I bet you don't come round to tell me you are putting your BBque on and the being down wind I have to put up with the smell of your rancid fat wafting down on me or the noise as friends get progressively drunk into the early hours. It must be so good to be able to know that you will go to heaven. Finally if you have something against generators don't go into the alps or anywhere else that have Aires and skiing as some of these Germans are big blokes >:-) everyone has one on.

 

You sanctimonious to.....s get up my nose. Join the Armish they have horsedrawn carriages so don't eject exhaust fumes as you do. Don't use up a lot of carbon based materials. as you do in your vans and don't rub people up the wrong way and are basically polite. which you are not!!!!!!

 

ned

Hear ,hear. Well said ned. I can't believe it.If they want to read in absolute silence then they should not go to sites. How blooddy intolerant can you get?

[Guest peter]

Brian Kirby - 2010-08-19 6:18 PM

Is there not a basic rule of thumb: first add battery capacity, then add solar panel?  Unless you already have in the vicinity of 200Ah capacity, it would be wise to attend to this first, then add a solar panel if you find you still run the batteries low (below about 60% of their capacity).  You may need further advice on battery type and choice, because if your existing battery is one year or more old you will probably need to replace it, as well as adding one more - or just replace it with one of substantially greater capacity (though a 200ish Ah battery will be very heavy!).  If you use a hook-up from time to time, and drive reasonable distances once you move, you may find this alone solves all your problems.  If not, seek a bit more advice on panel types and capacities and, I think possibly even more importantly, suitable controllers.

That will all be blissfully silent.  And yes, I too am a generator hater, and am unsympathetic to the self-serving arguments advanced in their support. 

It's Just like passive smoking really, the smoker enjoys the cigarette at the expense of the non-smoker.  Why should the non-smoker be expected to leave the room to gain smoke free air?

So with generators: a sensible attitude, IMO, is that any noise a person imposes on others, for his own sole benefit, is the act of selfishness, not the resultant complaint.

Well put together reply Brian, but that's not what the o/p was asking. I doubt if he'll ask any more questions on here, if the replies he's recieved this time are anything to go by.

[Brian Kirby]

sshortcircuit - 2010-08-19 10:07 PM Brian Unless your MH is electrically powered or pulled by a horse then it fits exactly what you deplore "So with generators: a sensible attitude, IMO, is that any noise a person imposes on others, for his own sole benefit, is the act of selfishness, not the resultant complaint."

Hmmmmm!  More sophistry.  There is just a teensy-weensy difference between a motorhome on the road along with other traffic, all of which is being driven, and one sited in a quiet location, surrounded by other motorhomes, caravans, and probably tents, don't you think?  No?  Ah well, one can but try!  :-)

[Brian Kirby]

peter - 2010-08-19 11:58 PM .........Well put together reply Brian, but that's not what the o/p was asking. I doubt if he'll ask any more questions on here, if the replies he's received this time are anything to go by.

Thank you for your kind words, Peter, but I don't agree.

Three reasons.

First, I think it reasonable to advise others that what they propose doing may prove unpopular with their neighbours, because they may not be aware that it can cause intense irritation.

Second, because rapidoman has already said above that he prefers the solar panel solution, but had been quited a rather heavy price.  Others have advised more economical sources.

Third, because although my comments regarding generators are negative, I also suggested increasing his battery bank as a possible way of avoiding the expense of panels and the noise and fumes of a genny.  On the whole I thought that constructive, and potentially useful for him - at least that was how it was intended.

[Bazza454]

sooty10 - 2010-08-19 9:30 PM On this subject I think it would be a great idea at all shows to have an area where all the ones with generators may stay. They already have many other areas so one more would please all us who dislike generators and like some peace and quiet. Sooty

Good idea, and perhaps another seperate area where people can use their barbecues, and then they can share their dirty, disgusting, filthy, stinking smoke between themselves  http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/images/emoticons/icon_sad.gif

[rapidoman]

thank you for your thoughts good bad indifferent and other (!) heres thought though when at a show recently for 4/5 days a number of people me included had to run there vehicles for periods to top up batteries, surely that is more offensive obnoxious and noisier than running a quiet genny for a short period. on the original note i do have 2 110 amp batteries which may need testing but once charged they hold for a month while not used so feel they are ok, but the lady does need her showers and all our lighting seems to be halogen so they poss use a fair amount of juice. my batts tend to last about 3/4 days without charge. the original idea of a genny was purely for emergency backup if needed NOT to run constantly as some people do.hope this clarifies things a little and adds more food for thought. keep the responses coming i am a reasonable man always open to suggestions and ideas. im also very thick skinned and tolerant so no wories. ( comes to dealing with general public for ove 30 years >:-) )

[yrocker]

You call this lot "The General Public"! :-D

[Brian Kirby]

rapidoman - 2010-08-20 9:47 AM thank you for your thoughts good bad indifferent and other (!) heres thought though when at a show recently for 4/5 days a number of people me included had to run there vehicles for periods to top up batteries, surely that is more offencive obnoxious and noisier than running a quiet genny for a short period. on the original note i do have 2 110 amp batteries which may need testing but once charged they hold for a month while not used so feel they are ok, but the lady does need her showers and all our lighting seems to be halogen so they poss use a fair amount of juice. my batts tend to last about 3/4 days without charge.

Then, a suggestion.  Unless you are heavy users of the batteries, I should have thought you should be getting better than the stated 4/5 days from your 220Ah batteries.  However, it will obviously depend how, and how much, you use them over that period.  Not a valid comparison, but we can get about 3 days from our single 85Ah battery, on which basis 220 would do us a week easily.

Before you get gennys or solar panels, may I suggest you try a new post, and see if you can attract the attention of Clive or Brambles, both of whom are mines of battery related information?  There would be little point, IMO, in spending money on either genny or panel/s, if the batteries are cream crackered, since they would inevitably have to be replaced as well in the near future.  They will obviously need some basic info, such a make, age, type, and whether installed as a matched pair.

I'd better tender my apologies for volunteering their services now, just in case they read this, take offence, and ostracise me indefinitely.  Sorry chaps!  :-)

[handyman]

rapidoman - 2010-08-20 9:47 AM

 

and all our lighting seems to be halogen

 

Change the bulbs to led's (?)

[Dave Newell]

We use our motorhome for exhibiting at shows. As such we are usually fixed in position for 5 nights, sometimes six. We never have hookup at shows as the cost is astronomical. We have 3X110AH Elecsol batteries and a 100Watt Alden solar panel that performs like a 50Watt unit. We average an estimated 100AH per day consumption for three days (displaying at least two TVs, two sat receivers, three reversing camera systems for eight hours a day for three days of our stay). we also have a 100litre compressor fridge, radio, lighting, water pump etc plus running two laptops from the leisure batteries for an average of three hours a day each. you could say we are power hungry!

 

At the latest show (Malvern) we did run a bit low on power and borrowed a hookup from a neighbour overnight on the Saturday but normally we can do all five nights without dropping below 50% charge level.

 

Generators are rarely really needed, there are better options available. A generator burning petrol will be about the most cost ineffective means of providing power in the long term with petrol currently being around £1.19 per litre. As someone else said, if you have a medical need for 240V then use a site with hookup.

 

D.

[teflon2]

Just to get back to the question I have a Kipor 1.0kw sine wave genny it is rated 82decibels which is quieter than my wife and I can turn it off which I can't do to she who is never wrong. Its almost 1/2 the weight of my 110amp battery so helps with the loading. I bought it when we bought our motorhome 7years ago and its never left the garage exept to run it to stop the fuel gumming up the works. To the poor soul who needs peace and quiet try ear plugs they work very well and are good for your blood pressure or even join the 18% hearing brigade the noise is well muted. John (^)

[Dave Newell]

teflon2 - 2010-08-20 8:40 PM

 

Just to get back to the question I have a Kipor 1.0kw sine wave genny it is rated 82decibels which is quieter than my wife and I can turn it off which I can't do to she who is never wrong. Its almost 1/2 the weight of my 110amp battery so helps with the loading. I bought it when we bought our motorhome 7years ago and its never left the garage exept to run it to stop the fuel gumming up the works. To the poor soul who needs peace and quiet try ear plugs they work very well and are good for your blood pressure or even join the 18% hearing brigade the noise is well muted. John (^)

 

Excuse me???? You only run your genny to stop the fuel gumming up the works??? So why do you bother carrying it? And why should I or anybody else have to where ear plugs or "go deaf" just because you choose to carry a genny??

 

I'm not specifically anti generator, as I said earlier most of our motorhoming is done at shows where there are an abundance of them, at Cheshire show there was someone who fired up their genny at 05.50 AM for fifteen minutes not fifteen feet from us!

 

BUT! Is it really necessary? At this year's Goodwood Festival of Speed we were amazed to find one evening three people lying on sunloungers, enjoying some UV radiation while a genny buzzed away not ten feet from them................they were in a tent 8-) ! One has to wonder why they needed a genny.

 

D.

[teflon2]

OOps perhaps I should explain the garage is attatched to my house, I don't have a large vacant space on my motorhome but have one between my ears. For your own sake lighten up life is full of give and take and if you take umbridge to a lighthearted comment there's not much hope for you. John *-)

[Brian Kirby]

teflon2 - 2010-08-20 8:40 PM Just to get back to the question I have a Kipor 1.0kw sine wave genny it is rated 82decibels which is quieter than my wife and I can turn it off which I can't do to she who is never wrong.

Just for the sake of clarity, a generally accepted background noise pressure for an office building is 35dBA.  That is to say the background noise level from A/C equipment etc, with no occupants present.  Above that level it is considered conversations, face to face or telephone, have to be undertaken at sound levels that are distracting to others, and ultimately tiring.  Each 5dB represents approximately twice the sound pressure level. 

So, being charitable, that 82dB generator is making nine times the noise most people would regard as acceptable background noise for a working environment.  What is the possible justification for imposing that level of noise on all and sundry?

A field, even at 35dBA, would seem a bit on a drowsy, warm, summer's afternoon.  True, the same field at harvest time would hit rather more than 82dB from time to time, but a least a combine does something useful, and it also moves around taking its noise with it.

[sshortcircuit]

I promised myself I would not post after to many, but, Brian you have to get a grip. Teflon2 is just winding you up and you have taken the bait.

 

Who measures your office to ensure the sound levels are? Are dB levels not measured at specific distances from the source which drastically reduce the further you are away? I take you measure when on a pitch how far you are from one of these dreadful generators?

 

Life is to short!

 

 

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

sshortcircuit - 2010-08-20 11:02 PM ............Who measures your office to ensure the sound levels are? ........

The developer who had it built, and the surveyor acting for the prospective occupants.  And believe me, they do!

Yes, of course the sound pressure diminishes with distance, but who controls how far away the genny will be, its owner, or the poor sap who finds he has parked next to him half an hour before he fires it up?  Get a grip, the boy says!  Blimey!  :-D

[Brambles]

As Brian has dragged me screaming and kicking into this discussion...darn I was enjoying reading in the background, I will respond. ;-)

 

It was mentioned the 2 x 110Ah batteries hold up for a month when not used. How old are they as this does not seem very long unless there is something draining them say for quiescent power or an alarm etc.?

 

Agree with Brian I would expect more than few days just for lights etc, but again depends how many lights you switch on and for how long. If you have a diesel heater for the habitation and water then this will also use a lot of power.

So 1st task might be to establish how long your batteries should last by calculating the power used by everything you use. Basically if you take 50% of your capacity and use this as how much capacity is available. That is 110 Ah. For each appliance work out the current it draws and multiply by the hours it is on and that is the capacity it needs.

 

Another way is the hours you will get from 110Ah available = 1320/power rating of appliance.

e.g a 20 watt lamp will last 66 hours. (Gawd, hope my calc is correct)

 

Now going back to batteries holding up for a month which I have said is not very long, it means they may start a journey partially discharged. It takes a lot of hours to fully charge a battery on the alternator, and also if you are travelling from one overnighting place to another relying on alternator to charge the batteries over a few hours drive is not going to get then fully charged. It is quite feasible you are starting every few days camping with batteries only charged with 60 to 70% of max available charge they are capable of holding. So hook up for 24 or 36 hours before you leave home may make quite a difference to available power when camping for the 1st week. After that you have a problem you need to fully charge the batteries again for 24 hours.

Topping up each day for a short time with genny is a great idea but we all know the views on generators but is a practical solution ignoring people's attidudes to them. However good ones are not cheap an gennies are notoriously unreliable as they get older, or can be.

Solar panels may work out a lot more epensive, but have some great advantages, not only on being silent but can also keep all your battereis topped up when laid up for a month or two or ever if you want. You can use when parked next to genny haters, and also to even drive a small fan to keep the van air in van circulating in winter when laid up.

But back to batteries. Check you are getting the expected capacity from them, and they are in good condition, and topped up with water/acid to the correct level.

Sorry if long winded droning on post....blame Brian mentioning me... ;-)

 

On another note, not all 100Ah batteries are actually 110Ah, there is a lot of specmanship with batteries and some 110 Ah are actually only 90 Ah or even less, thats 40 Ah difference for two of them. Add in aging and soon drops off a lot lower, and investing in new batteries could easily double your days before needing charged.

 

[rapidoman]

ok seems the batts are about 3 years old but previous owner never used them and kept them in his garage using a trickle charger to keep them topped up so they may be slightly cream crackered. have not charged them since driving home from malvern so have borrowed a snap on battery tester which i will try this weekend. next question if they need replacing are elcesol batteries as good as they claim. not paying out for gel type (!) only just paid of mortgage.

[rapidoman]

just remembered :$ no i did not need genny or mains for medical reasons (!) may be getting old slightly senile and deaf but who aint after over 30 years of marriage >:-) just thought good idea in a situation where i was away from sites wiyh hookup.

[Brambles]

rapidoman - 2010-08-21 10:07 AM

 

ok seems the batts are about 3 years old but previous owner never used them and kept them in his garage using a trickle charger to keep them topped up so they may be slightly cream crackered. have not charged them since driving home from malvern so have borrowed a snap on battery tester which i will try this weekend. next question if they need replacing are elcesol batteries as good as they claim. not paying out for gel type (!) only just paid of mortgage.

 

Straight answer in my opinion ..NO.

 

They are a reasonable batteries if you call them 90 Ah not 100Ah, but they are nothing special.

Note they are model 110 not 110Ah.

If you want a better battery than Elecsol, try Varta leisure batteries for a flooded calcium technology battery.

Elecsol flooded batteries I believe are sourced from Centurian Akku batteries in Holland.

There are others but are diffcult to source in Uk such as Moura, and one I came across recently made in Slovenia but darned if I can remember the company/brand name....ermm.... TAB I think it is.

 

[rapidoman]

many thanks jon. lucas also do a 110 sealed calcium battery. seen it on alpha batteries web site are they the same as the varta ones (?)

[Brambles]

No, they are not the same. Lucas is just a licenced brand now in the UK for many imported budget batteries. The Lucas name is owned by Manbat and you will always find an equivalent to a lucas battery under other names.

[Brambles]

Just had a look at the lucas battery you mentioned. I traced that one just before the summer and can't remember who makes it.

These are all reasonable quality batteries but are in the consumer type range rather than industrial/commercial quality. In other words good premium quality budget, rather then high premium quality which naturally you pay more for. You pay for capacity and life, both increasing the price.

Watch the specs, if it gives a starting current (CCA_ cold cranking amps then it is basically a starter battery not a semi traction battery which is much better. In otherwards if a CCA is given it is more what is termed a marine battery, it is a starter with leisure power supply capabilities. They do not have as long a cycle life as semi-traction or true leisure batteries.

Great if you only use small amounts of power and is used mainly as a back up when mains is not available. Someone termed it as a buffer once. Quite a good term I think...a buffer battery.

So they certainly have their applications and are ideal in many setups, but not for the serious wild camper unless you are happy to replace more frequently. Also ideal for people who occassionally and accidently abuse their batteries murdering them unintentionally...why throw away £110 worth of batteries when you can waist £80 instead because lights were left on and not noticed for 2 months over the winter storage and battery is then stone dead.

If you want max capacity, long life and immunity to occassional abuse then you need to go for the best you can get, the extreme being deep discharge resistant gels which will cost twice as much as a flooded.