Newbie needs advice - van conversion vs coachbuilt

[Agent Fruit]

Great forum,

 

I'm a newbie to all this, and have spent many many hours researching lengths, widths, layouts, beds etc, and I'm getting more and more excited but confused about the imminent purchase. I'm wondering if I can get your opinions on what's important in the practicalities of living/driving, if I give you an idea about what I need? I plan to head off for a few months in this, so it needs to be a good fit.

 

I'm currently a singleton with wanderlust plus small dog, though I may have to accommodate plus one along the way, you never know :-) . I'm no hippy though - I do like my home comforts being 42, and don't want to have to make my bed every day as I have a very very bad back. So most important factor is the bed arrangement.....fixed double 4ft 6" minimum, or two proper singles ie at least one of them needs to be 3ft wide and 6ft long, one of which can be left made up. I don't know what the doubles with cutaway foot ends are like to sleep in with two people?

 

Equally important is the fact that I plan to be spending as much time as possible off the beaten track ie down small lanes, and so I'm wondering how much difference the 20cm width makes between a van conversion and a coachbuilt. It seems so little when you hold up a ruler, but I'm sure you'll be able to give me real life experience of whether it means the difference between reversing 100 yards or not (not my strong point). Also, does the length difference between 5.5m and 6m and 6.5m make much odds?

 

Ideally I need a sitting area that has a sofa type seat that I can lie on, at least a bit, as my back isn't good with sitting in bolt upright seats. Drivers seats that swivel and tip right back, with somewhere to put legs up might be an alternative option, or a bed area that can see a TV that can be swivelled to be viewed from either sitting area or bed area.

 

Good quality fittings

Good storage/water capacity/heating etc

In fact, good everything. I'd rather pay more and get something that won't annoy me.

Good engine and chassis - I'm a keen driver, and will get reeeealllly annoyed if it's sluggish or handles too much like a bag of jelly.

If it's coachbuilt it needs to be low profile ie with no bed over the cab. I like the streamlined look and I want easy driving on motorways.

 

So far the ones that have caught my eye are:

Hobby Toskana D600 FL and D600 GFLC (tiny bit bigger but good beds)

Hobby Van (bed width narrower than my 4'6" minimum)

Murvi Morocco (smaller van but less good bed)

Hymer Van 512 (haven't been able to get bed measurements)

 

 

So.......please can I raid your collective wisdom?

 

Jo

 

[flicka]

Hi Jo & welcome to the forum.

Have a look at the "what home to buy" thread as it has some good advice.

 

Also put the Dethleffs Globebus T range on your list of "too look at"

They are low profile coachbuilts, but only as wide as a Panel Van Conversion. (2.15m)

2 models @ 6m long, 1 @ 6.28m, 1@ 6.33m &1 @ 6.73m.

Similar German build quality to those you have listed.

 

Money no object - have a look at IH Motorhomes J500, Rear bed or J1000 Rear longe, both are 6.5m (ish) Low profile coachbuilts on Mercedes base & very impressive build quality

www.ihmotorhomes.com

[colin]

I'm sure someone will disagree with me, but here goes.

The differance between a coachbuilt and PVC does indeed become more apparent when you start driving down narrow lanes, my holiday in Devon last easter confirmed to me that a PVC was much more to my liking, not so much having to reverse up, but having to be much more precise with position on the road.

As for the lenght, the shorter vans might just fit in a parking space, whereas a 6.5m van will require one and a bit i.e. two spaces. The trade off is space, until someone perfects a tardis there's allways going to be a compromise.

[Clive]

Compromise for sure!

You will get more motorhome for your money with a coachbuilt than with a van conversion. This is because they are easier to build with straight walls that are put on LAST with a coachbuilt.

 

Size is verses manouverability is your choice. We have an 8.5 metre nearly 8 feet wide lump and cary two motorcycles inside for local pottering. But the accomodation is beyond reproach. Permanent rear double bed, seperate shower, all the trimmings!! But its 18 to the gallon. A moderate panel van conversion will trundle along around 26 to the gallon if not a bit better with some of the smaller ones. We started with a panel van conversion in 1972.

 

Suggest you find something that you like and agree with the dealer to HIRE it for a weeks holiday. If you come back smitten then buy it and you won,t be charged the hire cost.

Howzat for an idea?

C.

 

[Agent Fruit]

Clive - 2010-08-24 9:07 PM

Suggest you find something that you like and agree with the dealer to HIRE it for a weeks holiday. If you come back smitten then buy it and you won,t be charged the hire cost.

Howzat for an idea?

C.

 

Agreed, that's a great idea. I've asked a couple of dealers if I can do that but they've said nope. Trouble is that the ones I'm looking at seem to be like hen's teeth as used vehicles, and obviously they won't let me near anything new. So far when I've enquired about used ones, the dealers have actually laughed.

 

So how much difference do you reckon 20cm width makes in a narrow lane? And half a metre makes to ease of manoeuvring? Does the basic construction of the walls, windows etc of a van significantly affect the heat/cold inside?

 

J

[Clive]

You need to decide up front if you want to camp in the winter because many panel vans (not all) and most UK coachbuilts have water tanks slung under the floor that can and do freeze. The better coach builts have double floors with the water tanks insude the heated area so stand the use in winter. Mostly european vans.

 

If potential sellers dont want to lend then start by looking at motorhome hire, try the best you can find and if you like it you know what to look for in a purchase.

 

Length, once you are over a standard supermarket parking space length then a different aproach to parking takes place. Have four places OK!

 

You will soon get used to the size of the vehicle if you are a bloke, ladies take a little longer as their spacial awareness is not so good. But they can do it.

 

C.

 

[lennyhb]

Welcome,

 

If you are looking for a van to use all year round you really need to be looking at a German coachbuilt. Coachbuilt as the insulation is far higher, the insulation in PVC's is quite poor in comparison, German as you can be sure of a fully winterised van.

 

If you are going away for a few months at a time I would think a PVC would be a bit cramped a coachbuilt will give that bit extra room for long term use.

 

Beds with cut off corner (commonly called a French bed) are not a problem in practice you don't notice it certainly not in my van where the bed is 7' long & it wasn't a problem in a caravan we had where it was only 6'3".

 

Our van is 6.8m long(about 7.3 or more with bikes on) & 2.35m wide it's our first van had it just over 2 years not found the size a problem recently did a tour of south east & south west Ireland found some pretty small roads we coped with OK even had to reverse up one twisty one, reversing is not my strong point either.

 

You say you like your comforts, most of the vans you mention appear to be budget ones the Hymer Van is their cheapest coachbuilt if you want a bit more comfort and luxury if your budget can run to it take a look at the Hymer Tramp SL range we have not been disappointed with ours.

I also suffer with my back options such as ISRI or Augti seats are well worth the extra, our ISRI's swivelled & reclined are great for lounging.

 

For handling you can't go far wrong with the Fiat Camping Car chassis it is lower than the standard chassis cab has a wider rear track & bigger anti roll bars, handling can only be described as outstanding. Hymer Tramps are on this chassis a lot of manufacturers use the standard chassis cab.

 

Before buying we hired a couple of times, hired in Germany as it is the cheapest place to hire in Europe. First van we hired was a Hymer Van we found it far too cramped, then a Hymer B class (A class in any other make) we felt that a lot of the A class advantage had been lost when compared to the new Fiat with it's wider cab & deeper windscreen. We ended up buying a Low Profile so far it's met all expectations.

 

If looking at buying Hymer or other German vans it is worth buying in Belgium or Germany to avoid rip off UK prices.

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

Reduced to the basics, you want what everyone wants, a large, spacious interior, in a compact exterior.  :-)  Doesn't really exist!  So, something has to give.

First point.  Narrow lanes in off the beaten track places frequently have a lot of overhanging vegetation alongside.  The vegetation contains small branches, and some larger ones, as well as the twigs and leaves.  The side walls of most coachbuilt vans are of aluminium sheet, a reasonable number have flat sheet fibreglass, there is a composite called AluFibre that, logically enough combines both.  These sheets are generally applied over a timber frame, a few using plastics in lieu, and very few using aluminium frames.  The AluFibre is the strongest, the fibreglass relatively easy to repair and stronger than the aluminium, which is also the most difficult to repair if seriously damaged.  So back to the vegetation, if you catch the wrong piece in the wrong place it will crease an aluminium skin a treat, it may crack a fibreglass skin, and it will probably only leave a scratch or a sap stain on the AluFibre.  Lesson one.  Coachbuilt vans are surprisingly fragile, and are difficult and expensive to repair.

Panel vans, on the other hand, have an all steel body that should emerge from a brush with the roadside vegetation with no more than a sap stain or two.  Lesson two.  Panel vans are generally much stronger than coachbuilts.

You want a largish bed, which generally implies a wideish van.  In fact, the best overall panel van currently on the market is the so called SEVEL van (after the consortium that makes them) marketed under the Fiat (Ducato) Peugeot (Boxer) or Citroen (Jumper) marques, because it can just accommodate a transverse bed.  None of the other vans, all being narrower, can do this.  However, the vehicle can exhibit severe vibration when being reversed, due to an as yet unresolved design defect.  So, not so good going backwards.  There is a new van made by a Renault/Vauxhall/Opel consortium that is just coming onto the market that looks as though it may be as wide as the SEVELs, but no-one seems to have converted it yet, either as coachbuilt or PVC.  Lesson three: the best practical van for conversion is flawed.

Why transverse beds?  Because it allows the van to be around 500mm/18" shorter, than with a longitudinal bed.  Think car parks, supermarkets etc.  Lesson four: compact vehicles are easier to use day to day in the absence of supplementary transport (bike, scooter etc).

I think length is less of a problem generally than width, because the width is what pushes you into contact with those bits of roadside vegetation.  Anything much over 2.1 metres is getting a bit chancy down narrow lanes in anything coachbuilt, which is a shame because most coachbuilts are in the 2.3 metre width range.  Remember, the mirrors stick out beyond the bodywork, and quite a lot of motorhomers experience mirror damage.

Reversing?  Driving solo, I would say you will come to appreciate a good rear view camera.  Most of us find that in tight spots it is essential to have someone watching the rear, and if alone that is not feasible, so a camera is next best.

Somewhere in among all this lot is a compromise, and I think your head is telling you it favours a panel van conversion, and your heart is saying you can't get the creature comforts you want in a panel van.  Both of you is right!  I would say you should start investigating panel vans because of their advantages as above, but also because modern van locking is very good, and you get superior security with that steel body shell, and those remote operated deadlocks.

The downside is the extra cost of the PVC due, as Clive says, to the less efficient working methods imposed on converters.  However, I would suggest a good look at Globecar here http://tinyurl.com/2vo3l8d or Possl here http://tinyurl.com/34y4vla (basically the same vans with different interior finishes).  They seem to have rationalised the production process and are surprisingly good value for PVCs.

For something a little different look at these http://tinyurl.com/3yp7kb3.  Brisebras fits out the interiors of glass fibre bodyshells made by its collaborator 3C Cartier.  The fibreglass shells are of very high quality and can be fitted to a number of different base vehicles.  The fit out is based on a series of standard designs, but the execution is virtually bespoke.  Based just north of Clermont Ferrand, neither website having English pages, they are high quality specialist converters serving the French market almost exclusively.  You will notice prices are not quoted, but I think run in the region of 60K Euros.

If none of those appeals, how about Wingamm, here http://tinyurl.com/3agk8zr .  Italian, another high quality fibreglass shell married to the van cab, Fiat or VW based, reputed of very high quality, with some nice space saving ideas (drop down beds, for example), but not cheap, though the website (mostly! :-)) works in English, and Wingamm has a presence on the UK market.  Not cheap, but maybe nearer to what you want than a straight PVC.  These bodyshells are fairly narrow, and should be bush resistant!  Hope this helps, or is at least food for thought.

[flicka]

Another option on VW chassi, just oever 6.5m long

http://www.karmannmobil.com/model6.htm

 

[flicka]

Brilliant post Brian.

 

It should be a "sticky" especially as the current link on the "Essential buying guide." does not give the information.

 

Pretty please Mr. Moderator

[Agent Fruit]

Wow, thanks for all the great advice, particularly Brian's fantastic post. That is way more than any dealer has told me so far and is something to think about, especially given my tendency to whip down narrow lanes. Also the security aspect - I'll have proper cameras onboard, being a photographer. I'm assuming you mean that the security on a van conversion is way better than a coachbuilt? I quite agree that your post should be made a 'stickie'....don't quite understand what that means, but I'm sure it means that it becomes a permanent source of info.

 

I never thought about the water tanks either, or the wintering concept. I never even considered being in the snow in it, but now I think about it, it seems like an interesting idea.....as long as I have a set of snowchains.

 

But about the women's lack of spatial awareness comment....ahem....virtual clip around the ear in that direction. You're speaking to a female ex-rally driver here.

 

Anyway, thanks so much for all the info. If anyone has anymore to add, the more I read, the better. I'll definitely be going to the NEC in October to learn more.

 

J

[ips]

Sounds like you definately need a van conversion.............apart from the obvious ease of getting down narrow lanes etc you wont be able to handbrake turn a coachbuilt anything like as easy as a van conversion :-D

[malc d]

Agent Fruit

 

I see that you mentioned the Murvi Morocco - which has two single beds, but are you aware that the Murvi Morello is the 'same thing' with one easy-made double bed ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[LordThornber]

Agent Fruit - 2010-08-25 10:00 AM

 

But about the women's lack of spatial awareness comment....ahem....virtual clip around the ear in that direction. You're speaking to a female ex-rally driver here.

 

J

 

Quality :D :D :D :D

 

Martyn

[flicka]

Agent Fruit - 2010-08-25 10:00 AM

 

But about the women's lack of spatial awareness comment....ahem....virtual clip around the ear in that direction. You're speaking to a female ex-rally driver here.

 

J

 

Then definately only one choice for you,

 

"Karmann Mobil has set the first world speed record for a coachbuilt motorhome with its Volkswagen T5/Al-Ko

Colorado Ti RS.

The speed tests took place at the famous Nüburgring circuit

in Germany, with professional racing driver Frank Diefenbacher at the wheel. The modified motorhome was capable of achieving 124.3 mph, but heavy rain made driving conditions very difficult and Frank was only able to achieve 106.2 mph- this was enough to set the first world record.

A second attempt at the world record was completed at

the Eurospeedway Lausitz, on the 16th August 2006. This

time it was faster, with the motorhome achieving a top speed

of 124 mph."

see:-

http://www.karmannmobil.com/rs.htm

[Agent Fruit]

malc d - 2010-08-25 10:50 AM

 

I see that you mentioned the Murvi Morocco - which has two single beds, but are you aware that the Murvi Morello is the 'same thing' with one easy-made double bed ?

 

 

Yes, I was looking at the Morello originally, but I want to avoid having to make up the bed every night as my bad back won't take it. Murvi reckoned the sofa in the Morocco would be ok to use as a single bed so all I'd have to do is chuck a duvet on it at night, or scatter cushions on it in the day, depending on how lazy I was feeling. I looked at the list of companies at the NEC on October and it says Murvi are there so I'm hoping they have the Morocco there so I can test out the sofa. If not, anyone own one nearer Guildford than Birmingham??

 

Does anyone have an opinion on Knaus vans? They look like they have lots of bed variations, some of them quite big? Are they ok in winter and what's the build and fittings quality like?

 

So, width-wise, are we saying that 2.1m or 2.2m is significantly better than 2.3m? The extra 20cm makes an all important difference in a narrow lane? It seems like I can get lots of really nice coachbuilts at 2.3m (though I don't yet know what their construction is as per Martin's post.....I really like the look of the Hobby Toskana D600 FL though) and far fewer panel van conversions around 2.1m.

 

Jo

[neil malcolmson]

Clive - 2010-08-24 9:57 PM

 

You need to decide up front if you want to camp in the winter because many panel vans (not all) and most UK coachbuilts have water tanks slung under the floor that can and do freeze. The better coach builts have double floors with the water tanks insude the heated area so stand the use in winter. Mostly european vans.

 

If potential sellers dont want to lend then start by looking at motorhome hire, try the best you can find and if you like it you know what to look for in a purchase.

 

Length, once you are over a standard supermarket parking space length then a different aproach to parking takes place. Have four places OK!

 

You will soon get used to the size of the vehicle if you are a bloke, ladies take a little longer as their spacial awareness is not so good. But they can do it.

 

C.

 

 

Open mouth...Insert foot in gob :D :D

[Agent Fruit]

Quote flicka: (quote thing didn't work)

 

"Then definately only one choice for you,

 

"Karmann Mobil has set the first world speed record for a coachbuilt motorhome with its Volkswagen T5/Al-Ko

Colorado Ti RS.

 

see:-

http://www.karmannmobil.com/rs.htm "

 

 

Great, that's my budget gone in one fell swoop. I have to have one. Maybe not in orange though 8-) (lol)

[Guest JudgeMental]

You can bolt a safe/security box through the floor of a PVC for you valuable equipment. more difficult with a coachbuilt as they are made out of cheese slices:-S

 

I am oft to the Düsseldorf show next week, for probably the best motorhome show........... Main aim to look at the latest PVC vans for our imminent downsizing.

 

Globe car/Possl are out in front at the moment.

[neil malcolmson]

Have you thought about a compact a-class ?

http://www.highbridgecaravans.co.uk/usedmotorhomedetails.php?ID=00020978

[PCC]

Just to throw in a few more thoughts. Another maker of German PVCs is BavariaCamp (not Bavaria, part of Pilote) www.bavariacamp.de. They were at Dusseldorf last year and have some nice ideas including a Fiat with a spacious and comfortable dinette up front and decent sized single beds across the rear but do not make rhd conversions.

 

I'm firmly of the view that less is more - try and avoid all of the things that you don't need. They look very seductive at the shows but they just add to the cost, weight, fuel consumption and rattles! Do you need an oven or would two rings be enough? Are you going to use site facilities, in which case it would seem a waste to carry around a big empty box in the form of a separate shower?

 

If you're not going to hook up to the power on site, make sure that you've got sufficient battery power. I can remember hearing my heating cut out one very cold morning because the battery had run down.

 

I would never compromise on safety, so would look for a passenger airbag and decent belted seats for as many passengers as you might want to carry (I wonder about the selection of loose cushions on wooden boxes that sometimes seem to be offered). Also, my van doesn't have air conditioning which is something I would dearly love particularly as it's green and soaks up the heat. If you're going to hot climes I would try to avoid colours that absorb heat.

 

[Guest JudgeMental]

PCC - 2010-08-25 5:24 PM

Just to throw in a few more thoughts. Another maker of German PVCs is BavariaCamp (not Bavaria, part of Pilote) www.bavariacamp.de. They were at Dusseldorf last year and have some nice ideas including a Fiat with a spacious and comfortable dinette up front and decent sized single beds across the rear but do not make rhd conversions.

 

Just had a look at a few of these on German mobile.de site. They are well over 10.000 euro more then the far more popular Globecar/Possl vans and I for one cant see where the money has gone...will have a look at Düsseldorf next week though as they are in the same hall as Possl.

 

On the subject of colour, I guess white has to be better for summer use, but is silver that much different do you think? as the vans look better in silver, but I can live with a white one if its going to be more comfortable on hot sumer nights......

[Agent Fruit]

neil malcolmson - 2010-08-25 12:34 PM

 

Have you thought about a compact a-class ?

http://www.highbridgecaravans.co.uk/usedmotorhomedetails.php?ID=00020978

 

No I hadn't. I didn't realise they were so compact. Now you're going to have to explain what the difference is and why you'd buy one vs any of the others :-D

[Guest JudgeMental]

Agent Fruit - 2010-08-25 7:15 PM

 

neil malcolmson - 2010-08-25 12:34 PM

 

Have you thought about a compact a-class ?

http://www.highbridgecaravans.co.uk/usedmotorhomedetails.php?ID=00020978

 

No I hadn't. I didn't realise they were so compact. Now you're going to have to explain what the difference is and why you'd buy one vs any of the others :-D

 

Forget them, they are made of cardbord and swiss cheese as well.......

 

Get a PVC, The 3litre auto version on 3500kg chassis. Lower, sleeker and far better performance, handling and economy. My choice is the Hymer Car 322 or Globecar 599. The one I am probably getting is the Globecar 636. Its a bit longer but with twin rear singles that make up into a massive double if you want......

 

 

[colin]

Globecar 636 and 599 are in latest MMM, but not worth getting just for that as it's more of an overview than any roadtest.