Pipe price hike

[starvin marvin]

If you treat drinking water as you would fresh milk, then you won't go far wrong.

 

Both go in coffee quite nicely

[alan k]

Hi,

 

Well i always use food grade hose to fill the tank and am always careful to take note of the condition of the tap and any hose that might have been attached before I fill the on board tank. On the continent where we might be using cold water to mix drinks, cordial etc we do tend to use smaller bottles of water but filled at the tap not bought. The rest of our water use comes from the onboard tank. Boiling water for hot drinks will usually kill anything

 

The water regulations are the same throughout the EC, its a matter of conjecture whether the standards are applied to the same extent tho in different countries.

 

There is no requirement to use chlorine in the water treatment process, the requirement is for the water to be disinfected and many treatment works use chlorine as the effective agent although its less likely to be chlorine gas these days.

 

Most water supplied in the UK has been thro a storage tank or several (usually made of concrete and often underground) and the water may consequently be up to 3 days old by the time it reaches some consumers.

Some filters can remove cryptospiridium and the other bugs which are not affected by chlorine. Some filters can remove ecoli etc but flow rates are often slow with lots of pressure loss and the filters need to be looked after properly.

 

Its quite amazing how much grot is in and around the spout of a domestic kitchen tap and the resulting bacti counts. When water testing the tap is often swabbed to see what there is in there and the tap flamed with a blow torch to make sure that any bugs are from the water and not picked up from the tap!

 

All hoses on a water treatment works have to be certified as food quality hose as they do in food/drinks factories, to stop any nasties in the plastic of the hose being leached out or providing a food source for bacteria to grow in the hose.

 

So I'm careful with which taps I use but I use food grade hose, and apart from making up cold drinks usually use water direct from the onboard tank.

 

However if sombody has a compromised immune system or is very young, then I would probably use a well known brand of bottled water bought commercially for all cold water use, ie., drinks, teeth cleaning etc.

 

cheers alan

 

(PS I spent nearly 30 years involved in the design, operation and management of water teatment works and the bits upstream and immediately downstream of them for a major water company as well as a couple of years playing with sewage treament works.)

 

[LordThornber]

Alan K, thankyou I rest my case :D :D

 

Martyn

[art338]

But I don't Martyne, this hype about food grade is a myth in my opinion, except from the sellers view! OK, so its bought new as such but after that ???

 

And, anyone that goes fishing will know that water flowing through a duct has a resistance at its outer edges adjacent to a 'wall' and therefore flows more slowly. Given that, how can impurities (if there are any) be extracted from the pipe lining when the water at the sides is almost staionary?

 

Sort that one if you can.

 

art

 

 

[LordThornber]

Hi Art, I'm happy with my lot, it might be better if you take it up with Alan, and good luck.

 

Martyn

[oldlowie]

alan k - 2010-08-29 2:00 PM

 

There is no requirement to use chlorine in the water treatment process, the requirement is for the water to be disinfected

 

Hi alan k,

to be clear in my post I assumed chlorine to be the UK industry standard for water supply disinfection, have you used a cost-effective alternative?

 

Were you contracted to a Water Company? If so were there budget restraints advised and controlled by your Clerk of Works? Or did you have a free hand to spend ratepayers money?

[art338]

Martyn

 

Its simply that an article often has a 'name' attached to it simply to enhance its sales and may not be 'true' like organic food and global warming and brown eggs are healthier than white ones.

 

The objective of government is to brain wash the non thinking person and induce them to buy a product or believe in what they are told.

 

When someone pops up and says they buy a food grade product, I challlenge them and ask who says so and why, so far no one has an answer which casts doubts on what is advertised.

 

I note that the water specialists here also refer to 'food grade' and I'll bet they only go by the label too, and even if you have the best available piping they suggest there's a mighty amount of bugs at the tap end.

 

It will take a while before I have a good technical answer (right or wrong)but I will find one.

 

art

[Mr. Grumpy]

30 years ago while on holiday in France we bought a 10 liter plastic jerry can. We have used this every year since first when camping now with the motorhome. I use it to put a known amount of water in the tank when leaving home as I don't necessarily carry a full tank. I then use it to fill the tank on site rather than a hose. When I don't intend to use it for a while I leave it open to dry out. The motorhome tank is treated the same and drained at the end of a trip and allowed to dry. We always use water from the tank for everything including drinking, filled from whatever water tap is available, and in 15 years of using a motorhome we have never had any problems, having said that I'll probable spend the next week on the "bog"! I am not a scientist but if it works for me that's fine.

[alan k]

Hi,

 

"Chlorine" always has been the disinfectant of choice generally and it was usually chlorine gas, however "Chlorine" can cause some problems depending where in the treatment process it is applied. Safety issues related to the transport of high pressure cylinders and drums have tended to reduce its use. Sodium Hypochlorite (bleach) either manufactured on site (brine and electricity ) or delivered to site in bulk or in drums tended to take over. There has also been use of Chlorine Dioxide. For a time ultra violet radiation became popular but left no residual protection in the water.

 

( I was the Company's Production Manager responsible for the Technical Standards and Operational Policies at sources (Impounding reservoirs, boreholes, river intakes), raw and treated trunk mains, water treatment works and service reservoirs and had the chemical and electricity budget for all of them because of the way we could change how we moved water about. Company Policies and Standards were continually being amended and updated to enable "best value" decisions to be made. )

 

To answer the point about plastic pipe leaching food for bacteria, lots of things dissolve in still water, and yes you can measure the plasticisers that come out of plastic pipes with the right kit. And yes occasionally we did find plastic pipe supplied as "food grade" that weren't up to standard. Ordinary plastic hose/pipe can impart a taste to the water that flows thro it, sometimes that's only detectable once the water has been boiled and you get the funny tasting tea.

 

One of the problems with the water we usually receive is that we get used to it and the body builds an immunity to the bugs that are usually in it. As our water supply has become more and more high quality from a bacteriological point of view, the less we are exposed to any bugs. So if we do meet some water thats not of the same high quality or has a few bugs we are not used to we get holiday tummy. It used to happen all over the UK 30 or 40 years ago and even more so on the continent.

 

So yes Mr Grumpy you'll probably be fine and I applaud the measures you take

 

cheers alan

[Chudders]

I,m intrigued by all this discussion regarding the pro,s and con,s. Can I ask if anyone knows then what alkathene pipe is. Is it food grade, I doubt it yet it is used on caravan sites as well as feeding the mains supply to houses etc.(Maybe the water companies use a special quality pipe) Just interested as I am aware that caravan parks simply go to their builders merchants and buy a roll of alkathene pipe, put it in the ground and feed all the taps on the site. Is that anydifferent. I wonder.

Dave

[Guest pelmetman]

Blimey (!) ..........................its a wonder me and er in doors is still alive, I am pretty sure I cleaned out our water tank once or twice over the last 20 years, and I still have the same flat hose ( food quality of course (lol) ) bought 18 + years ago, although its got so many holes in it *-) its more sprinkler than hose (lol)

[art338]

A good comment alan k and other water technicians. From all that’s been said so far it does seem that most plastic piping is good enough to pass drinking water through.

 

We each have become used to ‘our taste’ and there the question ends. Those that are paranoid about health will take the advertisers word that it’s good.

 

Others like me who have survived past 80 years from drinking water from a well in the garden then having it supplied through miles and miles of lead pipes would never buy food grade anything.

 

There’s a high probability that, by becoming squeaky clean we will suffer more health problems.

 

art

 

PS

 

Alan k, what are your views on bottled water? We never use it, we only ever use or drink tap water as it has a standard quality, I assume its the taste thing again and that its free from known additives.

 

art

[alan k]

Hi,

 

The blue alkathene pipe is a pipe specially made for the water industry, tested and approved by the regulatory bodies. It is much less flexible than the plastic pipes we've been discussing, hence if i remember correctly it has less plasticisers in it.

 

The blue alkathene should have the regulatory info stamped at regular intervals along its length, pressure rating etec etc.

 

I do remember having to face a small village at a public meeting where their local spring was going to be replaced by water piped in from some distance away, the local spring was quite good apart from after heavy rain when it became quite discoloured and occasionaly had a horendous bacti count. Visitors often got a gippy tummy but as one local of 80 said it had never affected him but then as somebody else remarked he only drank beer!

 

Its all about what bugs you get used to

 

alan

 

PS I've just seen the latest comment as I submitted my reply !!

 

And yes as we all get used to the higher quality, the less tolerant we are to any slip in the standard, a little bit of muck does you good now and again

[oldlowie]

alan k - 2010-08-30 10:27 PM

 

Hi,

 

The blue alkathene pipe is a pipe specially made for the water industry, tested and approved by the regulatory bodies.

 

Alany, Alany, Alany!

 

The 'blue pipe' is MDPE (Medium Density Polyethylene), and has been used for water service pipes, and now quite large diameter water mains, for around 15 years.

 

The previous standard water service pipe was black, and made of polythene - ('alkathene' was only ever a brand name used by plumbers and non-industry contract staff). This black pipe was deemed too dangerous, as it was indistinguishable from sheathed electricity cables. (One would make a navvy wet when he put a pick-axe through it, the other would kill him!)

 

Once British Gas went to yellow LDPE (Low Density PE - there's very little pressure in domestic gas pipes), the water industry decided to go blue. This was not without its problems, as PE pipe is measured by its ID (inside diameter), while black polythene was measured by its OD (outside diameter). The latter was useful in determining whether the black pipe was LD (low density and incredibly flexible) or HD (quite brittle but impervious to 'town gas', not so important after the changeover to North Sea Gas).

 

There is a wealth of experience in these forums, it would be a shame to have that obscured by petty point-scoring... *-)

[pkc]

"There is a wealth of experience in these forums, it would be a shame to have that obscured by petty point-scoring.."

 

Good point Oldlowie.

 

I quite like this trend of posters giving a little CV with details of their expertise when discussing the more technical matters.

It is often obvious that that some posters are ‘Professor Googles,’ who have no real knowledge of the subject under discussion which is fine if they are only expressing an opinion, but likely to confuse the tyro who is looking for experts input.

Personally I try and keep my consumption of water to a absolute minimum, and insist that all liquids consumed have undergone a rigorous brewing or distilling process.

My expertise in this field is second to none

 

[oldlowie]

pkc - 2010-09-01 9:53 AM

 

Personally I try and keep my consumption of water to a absolute minimum, and insist that all liquids consumed have undergone a rigorous brewing or distilling process.

My expertise in this field is second to none

 

Nice one pkc. :D :D :D

 

I'm off my high horse now, I only wanted to alert fellow motorhomers to the perils of 'fresh water' masquerading as 'drinking water' but got embroiled in a 'my career was better than your career' debate. Truth is, I retired (early) 5 years ago and now actually couldn't really care... *-)

 

My own liquid intake involves brewing (natch) and the treading of the grape... 8-)

[jsbc]

Hi guys re water I've lived rurally in new zealand for 22 years and drink the water off my roof, which is stored in a wooden tank with poly liner also have a plastic tank 44000 liters in total water tastes fine. The water has anything which has landed on the roof in it ,animal, mineral or vegetable. I fitted a charcoal filter to remove off flavours at the insistence of my son who subsequently couldn't tell the filtered from unfiltered .I travelled extensively in 04,05 in europe in a swift 12, months in total I've drunk spring water ,tap water out of my water tank and never had a problem with any. I will say this though before filling the tank taste the local water if it's gross don't fill tank if it tastes good fill every thing.

 

P.S.If you worried about giardia etc you can buy filters to remove said from water. For those vanning in NZ any rural water will be untreated especially on wild sites .

 

Have fun drink up.cheers!

 

P.P.S.I will be returning for another 6 months in 2011 or 2012 will bring my own garden hose.

[747]

Regarding the perils of drinking water:

 

Many years ago we rented a farm cottage with no electricity or gas and a water supply from a spring. The water board came about twice a year, took a sample and sent a letter saying it was unfit to drink. Myself, the wife and 2 young kids all drank the water without any mishap. I suppose we built up an immunity to the bugs. The same water supply went to the cattle troughs in the fields and the biggest problem was that the pressure dropped if the cows were thirsty and the farmer filled a bowser for us. It was tap water and we noticed the difference immediately as we got a rotten cup of tea for a change.

 

I have also spent half my time sat on the toilet with severe stomach problems but that was in Egypt and our water supply was coming from an irrigation channel of the Nile and the filtration system was faulty. Once it was fixed, we were all fine. The upside is, I must have accrued a terrific immune system because I never had an upset stomach for donkeys years afterwards.

 

You can tell from my post that I believe we need a few bugs to stimulate our immune system and I therefore take sensible precautions but do not believe food grade anything is worth buying.

 

If you think a few bugs are bad, try googling 'Guinea worm'. I had a few sleepless nights worrying that I might have been infected, even though I took precautions against it.

[Mike P]

Just to bring the last few postscripts and the main thread topic together, I,ve found that 3/8 or 1/2 inch ID braided beer pipe meets all the criteria and its pretty strong & durable and easily sanitised ( can be obtained from pub/bar fitting outfits)

CV (seems mandatory on this thread) originally chemist/microbiologist oscillated between brewing & water companies, eventually settled for technical/prodn management in the brewing industry; can't think why!

Mike P

[flicka]

Mike P - 2010-10-05 9:33 AM

CV (seems mandatory on this thread) originally chemist/microbiologist oscillated between brewing & water companies, eventually settled for technical/prodn management in the brewing industry; can't think why!

Mike P

 

Was it the free samples, Mike (lol) (lol)