Fiat Judder ( oops )

[casey]

Hi all,

Sorry to raise this subject again, i know many are sick of it. I have looked at previous threads on here and other sites.

Problem is we have seen a van we realy like a Bessacarr 425 on a 2008 plate but the judder problem is niggling at us.

Has this problem been sorted, any owners like to advise me?

thanks, and apologies again.

peter.

[Bazza454]

casey - 2010-08-29 9:34 AM Hi all, Sorry to raise this subject again, i know many are sick of it. I have looked at previous threads on here and other sites. Problem is we have seen a van we realy like a Bessacarr 425 on a 2008 plate but the judder problem is niggling at us. Has this problem been sorted, any owners like to advise me? thanks, and apologies again. peter.

If you believe Fiat and the dealers then there was never a major problem in the first place, and they have dealt with the one or two minor issues.

However, if you listen to the MAJORITY of owners the problem has either been -

- Successfully dealt with.

- Repaired but not to an acceptable standard.

- Had a totally unacceptable response from Fiat.

The issue for me is, would I trust Fiat and spend £30 or £40K on a 'van with a Fiat base vehicle, and the answer is no.

[casey]

Thanks Bazza for your quick reply, we have almost written off the fiat ( 99.9%) but you tend to hope all is sorted so long down the line. Totaly agree re financial aspect.

[Wilf]

Hi Peter

Like you I was reluctant to buy a motorhome based on the Fiat X250 because of all the claptrap about the judder problems that you here on the forums. We I went ahead and bought a motorhome based on a Fiat X250 maxi chassis 3 litre manual gearbox. What a dream! No problems at all and reversing up a 1 in 4 no judder at all.

If I had listened to all the people that moan about this and that on here; well would I but anything at all? I doubt it. I think that some people just can’t drive. With that I suppose that I will get called, but who cares! To the moaners GET A LIFE. Stop writing on forums if you can’t say anything constructive and get out there in the wild open spaces and enjoy you motorhomes.

 

[rupert123]

Peter you really have to treat this with some caution. It is certainly not true, as stated already, on this thread that the majority of owners are not happy, in fact it is the other way round. It is also not true that it is all 'claptrap'. I have an X250 that has now done 23,000 miles completely without any problems. The 2.2 five speed and 3.00 ltr have had very few problems reported, the one with most problems reported is the 2.3. Even here the number who have even bothered to have the reverse gear fix done are very few when you look at the numbers sold. Their can be little doubt that the reverse gear on the 2.3 is to high for some but Fiat have offered a fix for this that is effective providing the garage doing the 'fix' is a competant one. In all other ways the X250 is the best base around and personally I would not have any hesitation in buying another. Just have a test drive and insist on reversing it up a slope to see if you are happy. Also question if the 'fix' has been done and ask for proof.

[hallii]

I did the research, went to the shows, did the travelling and viewing of many motorhomes, read the forum posts.

 

In the end I decided that a Ford based M/H would be a safer bet.

 

Remember it is not just the judder that is/was a problem, there are other issues that needed sorting, sometimes not to the satisfaction of the owner.

 

It is a fact that if you do a search on any base vehicle or make of M/H you will find reported problems, some of them are so bad as to make me wonder why we ever buy a M/H at all.

 

From what I have found out it seems that some dealers who sell the M/H very often do not want to know after money has changed hands, there are some who have been mentioned here who have been honest and trustworthy going the extra mile to have a satisfied customer.

 

I suggest that it would be far safer to deal with a company with a good reputation.

 

Such a dealer will let you test drive a vehicle including reversing up a hill, so any problem will become apparent. I did just this on two test drives, and on one, at my request, a weighbridge was used to show the potential payload.

 

Read the warranty small print very carefully, it varies a lot, ask to take a copy away BEFORE signing.

 

If you have any concerns or questions for a dealer, put them in writing and request a written reply.

 

Three written requests, by me, asking about reverse judder never received a written reply. A phone call was the best I got telling me that it was "all sorted" and "that there was never a problem with this or that model". Since I knew these answers to be inaccurate as a result of my research I continued my search.

 

I finally purchased privately, no warranty, from someone who was honest and had nothing to hide. It was quite a bit cheaper as well!

 

Hallii

 

PS 4 days and I am off to Spain :-D

[Alan D]

Get a Renault.

[Rayjsj]

Casey,

I have just bought a new(er) van, I opted for the 'Pre-X250' base, we could have bought a new one, or an X250 used one. I road tested a new Autocruise, a 2.3 manual Starburst. I tried reversing it up a moderate hill and it juddered badly, the salesman said I wasn't driving it properly, so he had a go, First time it juddered just as bad as when I tried, the second time it didn't Judder, but he was slipping the clutch a lot more than I thought was good for the life of the clutch, and he was going a lot faster than I thought was safe (this was on a quiet road, on a site it would have been VERY unsafe.) So, I refute what was said about 'not knowing how to reverse' being the problem, I do know how to reverse ,

I've been doing it for 40years in many types of vehicle without any problems before. What Rupert123 says is right the Reverse gear is too high. If you can live with that fine, or the modification has been done correctly,fine. But make sure you test it, and make sure that you can live with it first. And remember the 3 year warranties are running out on the 2007 vans now. And the Clutch isn't covered anyway. (although some have been replaced by fiat as a goodwill gesture) Ray

[vindiboy]

S n J Fiat agents at Poole told me that they had done 45 mods on the Fiat Judder problem, that was December last year, they drop the gear box and fit a lower reverse gear ratio, new clutch new engine mounts and some new seals, it cost Fiat £1000. per mod apparently, S n J also issue a certificate showing what has been done, Fiat do not they say.So not a problem you say HHMMMMMMM !!

[Guest JudgeMental]

I would not consider an early van because of this ongoing fiasco. looking for a panel van conversion ourselves and all with a reasonable layout are on a Fiat because it is the widest van :-S

 

So have decided that either a new 3 litre auto or at least a 2010 model gives the best odds. If you can only afford the earlier van, get one with paper proof of "Fix" being carried out AND reverse it up a slope as well? before closing the deal *-)

 

Ignore the deniers, they are either deluded OR from the selfish "I'm all right jack" school of thought OR maybe have a vested interest is peddling misinformation *-)

[Mike88]

Mine is a 2010 3 litre with auto box and I would have to say its a fabulous drive. I too was put off by the pessimists but am glad I chose the Fiat as it handles and performs beautifully. The gearbox is as smooth as my auto car and is far smoother than the auto box on my previous Transit. I was amazed at how well the vehicle performs compared to my previous vehicle.

[Guest pelmetman]

If I were you, I would get 4 people (you need a bit of weight to test it) and take it to a hill and see what happens B-)

[kelly58]

We had the judder fix and 700 miles into France we lost all the gearbox oil due to bad workmanship by the Fiat Dealer lost 5 days holiday and lots of agro with no help from Fiat Camper "WE DO NOT "Care and the RAC did we get any compensation from Fiat NOT A CHANCE happily we have got rid of the Fiat . Would we buy another Fiat NO WAY I would sooner set fire to myself 1st.

[casey]

Thanks everyone for your input, as i said earlier i`m 99 99% that i won`t go for a fiat. I actualy e mailed two owners today and both said they didn`t know what chassis they had !!

peter.

[oldlowie]

Alan D - 2010-08-29 11:45 AM

 

Get a Renault.

 

Get a Tranny. :D

[spospe]

From personal experience:

 

If you have a problem out of guarantee (or quite often in guarantee) Fiat's attitude to you the customer is something like .....

 

'If you were stupid enough to buy it in the first place, then you will be stupid enough to buy another, so we don't need to care' (and they don't!)

 

In 49 years of motoring experience, I have never met a more dismissive attitude from a motor manufacturer.

 

Something to consider is, if you do buy one of the x250 series, at some stage you will have to sell it and what will be your position then? In say three more years down the line, how many more of these 'judderers' will have raised their ugly heads? You may well not be able to even give the thing away.

 

Make life easier for yourself; buy something without a reputation :-(

 

[Tomo3090]

Sorry but I have to disagree with your comments about not being able to sell it. We had a Peugeot Boxer, a 5 speed 2007 model, (new chassis shape), before we got our Cheyenne. I visited most dealers in the North West and not one EVER asked me "Does it judder?". Two even gave me a price for it over the phone before we visited their site. All were within 3 grand of each other. Dealers will give you the market value of a vehicle because they want you to drive off in a nice shine new one.

 

Our 2008 2.3 six speed box has performed without a problem for 17,500 miles and I wouldn't swap it for anything other than another FIAT. I've been on two sites where someone was having problems with Fords and one where a Merc was playing up. You can't say ALL or even MOST FIATs are defective because MOST owners don't post on here or MHF. There could be tens of thousands of owners driving round quite happy with their purchase. Just as their could be tens of thousands NOT happy. WE don't know so can't speculate with any certainty, either way.

 

Anyone who has had a problem can comment on their issues, but the rest are just repeating what they've read or heard.

[spospe]

Tomo

 

Of course no dealer asked you if your van juddered. They are all in denial about it. The same as motorvan munufacturers are.

 

I never said that they all juddered, but there is so much talk about it, that there is bound to be a question mark over selling x250 vehicles in the future; especially if the problem becomes more pronounced as time (and clutches) wears on.

[Big Momma]

spospe - 2010-08-30 4:45 PM

 

If you have a problem out of guarantee (or quite often in guarantee) Fiat's attitude to you the customer is something like .....

 

 

from another personal experience:

 

Bought brand new Fiat 3Litre Automatic. Had a few minor but still irritating niggles which dealer sorted out. Whilst returning from a week away (just 5-6 weeks after purchase) the van broke down. Camper Assist were fantastic (the FREEPHONE number provided is connected to a helpdesk in Milan !!) very polite, very courteous and extremely efficient and had RAC out to me in no time at all. RAC man puts computer diagnostics on and then states that he can't fix it (mind you it was raining). Cut a long story short, if the RAC man had done his job he would have found that the problem was merely a lead that had come off from somewhere unde the bonnet (Dont ask me what I am no mechanic, obviously like the RAC man) and all he had to do was push it back on and we would have been on our way again. Instead we had to be towed, a very long way home. Following day I rang FIAT Camper Assist again (in Milan) and they then arranged for my local FIAT Commercial dealer to come with a very large low loader and took the van to their depot about 20 minutes from where I live. It was they that diagnosed the problem. All in all it cost FIAT £600 because of an incompetent RAC man. About 2 weeks later I received a call from FIAT for customer feedback on whether my problem had been resolved and was I happy with the service. When I told them the story they said that they would be contacting the RAC.

 

Just a different perspective to show that it's not all doom and gloom. The van by the way is fantastic, just returned from a 30 day trip touring Scotland and van performed magnificently, couldn't call it driving as the 3Litre 6 Speed Auto Gearbox did it all, I just had to keep the wheels between the white lines and enjoy the scenery :D

[bromleyxphil]

Hi

 

I have an 09 Apache 634U on a 2.3, I was worried about the "Fiat problem" before I bought it. I have had no problems with reverse gear and I have reversed up some big hills particularly on a trip to France at Easter. Just returned from a 3 week 1800 mile trip to France and the van was fantastic to drive for every one of those miles. In truth its a fantastic van to own and use, a few niggles with the Autotrail bit but ce-la-vie life is short with many an open road so drive on.

[rupert123]

spospe - 2010-08-30 9:29 PM

 

Tomo

 

Of course no dealer asked you if your van juddered. They are all in denial about it. The same as motorvan munufacturers are.

 

I never said that they all juddered, but there is so much talk about it, that there is bound to be a question mark over selling x250 vehicles in the future; especially if the problem becomes more pronounced as time (and clutches) wears on.

 

Micheal, it is you and several like you on this forum that are in denial here. this subject on other forums 'died a death' a long time ago. Most M/H owners on the X250 base are not even aware their is a problem and those that are have had them fixed. Despite the increasing numbers, even on here who are saying 'I have an x250 with no problem' and the lack of anyone new saying they have a problem you continue to offer an opinion that is now well out of date. Now you may not buy one but why not try to give a balanced view. Tell people to check it will reverse to their satisfaction but why all the other rubbish. Why would their ever by a question mark over selling them and why would the problem become more pronouced, it is either their or not.

 

As to Fiats customer service, personally nothing but good. I assume you have personal experience of this or is it just more hearsay on your part.

[moyne]

I return but for just a moment. the problem with my van still exists and the case against Fiat is still pending although we are progressing. These legal things take time. My engineers reports still suggest that my Fiat Dethleff is falling slowly apart at the seams. For all new gys this vehicle is a tag axle dethleff advantage and i reported the issue to both Fiat and Dethleff 10 days after buying it. It vibrates violently in reverse and what has Fait done (NADA) what has Dethleff done (NADA).

 

So I shall return now and again and give a progress report !

[Mike88]

Moyne - thanks for keeping us up to date. Your case was mentioned recently on this thread here:

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=20775&posts=30

 

I must admit that I thought you would have been sorted by now but clearly this is not the case.

 

 

 

[casey]

Hi all, thanks moyne for your update. I realy didn`t want to open this can of worms again, hence the ( oops ). The problem clearly has not gone away as some seem to think, only gone quiet. I realy wanted to know " is it now safe to invest 30k in a fiat ? " the feeling i get is that it is not!

I am also a little dissapointed at the absence of a reply by someone from swift as so often happens on other forum sites.

thanks again, peter.

[AndyStothert]

The situation at the present time, as far as I can gather from talkng to various folk in the mags, clubs, and at Fiat is this:

 

2.2 litre 5 speed models

There have (thus far) been no component failures on the 2.2 5 speed models which can be laid directly at the door of the reverse gear ratio, BUT, from mid 2009 these were produced with a modfiied gearbox which incorporated a lower ratio.

 

2.2 litre 6 speed Peugeot, and 2.3 litre 6 speed Fiats

There has been only one gearbox failure on any of the 2000 plus vans modified by Fiat to include the lower ratio reverse gear, and from what the owner tells me I don't think the damage was caused by a failure in Fiat's engineering, as it doesn't quite fit the usual pattern. More likely driver abuse by the previous owner.

There don't seem to have been any clutch or gearbox failures on the latest production gearboxes made since mid 2009.

Any risk now seems to be restricted to buying a van made before the modified gearbox was put into production and which has not had the modifications done.

There is slight fly in the ointment here as a few 2.3 litre 6 speed Fiats have been produced carrying very heavy coachbuilt bodies on the 4 ton plus chassis, and the modifications, which seem adequate on the lighter 3.3 and 3.5 ton vehicles, are obviously less effective on the bigger ones. It would be probably best to avoid a 2.3 litre Fiat on a 4 ton (or above) chassis whether it has been modified or not.

 

3 litre 6 speed manual models

A Fiat employee who has been reliable throughout this debacle has stated that since mid 2009 the clutch lining spec has been changed to lessen or remove the tendency for the clutch to overheat too readily when reversed in extreme circumstances and slipping the clutch to control the speed of the vehicle. This does seem to backed up by a lack of 3 litre models which have incinerated their clutches recently.

 

I'm hoping that this will be my last post on this subject, as I hope (and believe) that Fiat have now done enough to prevent component failure as a result of the high reverse gear ratio, and even though the ratio is still too high in certain (rare) circumstances, the clutch and box now seem capable of dealing with this.

If anything significant arises then obviously I'll pass it on to everyone, but hopefully this will not be the case.