Fiat Judder ( oops )

[moyne]

The only thing I must say is that Fiat may have corrected or negated the problem, but they can have my vehicle back and I would't buy a vehicle off Fiat if they were to bubble wrap it and leave it free on my driveway. They as a company have made no effort to either fix or investigate my problem. Well they did send a guy in a suit to take it for a spin, but that is not an investigation and he even said it shook.

 

So there is no defence for Fiat they can stick their vehicles were the sun doesn't shine. Anyone who is foolish enough to buy one deserves to get what I got, a vehicle which cannot be parked on a hill or reversed on a hill.

 

I will be back no doubt, An independent Engineer is coming to inspect my vehicle again tomorrow this is the third inspection so that any and all Deterioration is recorded so that once the case is put forward a full record is made available. It ain't looking good at the moment.

It remains for sale if anyone wants it.....!

[Guest JudgeMental]

Andy...Before you disappear:-S I am about to order a 3 litre auto Panel van conversion (once I sell my van that is) What is the situation with these now please.....as you don't mention them in your summery.

[flicka]

I think Andy has made a VERY relevant point regarding the 2.3L 6speed box.

Something manufacturers do not appear to take into consideration.

There are STILL manufacturers matching this unit with the 4005kg chassis.

e.g; the new Swift Sundance 630G / Bessacarr E480 on the 4005kg chassis is ONLY available with the 2.3L 6 speed & I would expect most users will run tail heavy due to its Garage.

But I suppose they are only designing based on information supplied by FIAT :-(

[peter chapman]

Anyone who thinks that FIAT X250's are the only vans that have problems are living in cloud cuckoo land!

 

My daughter drives Merc based vehichles with the sprint shift gearbox all the earlier vans the company she drives for had gearbox problems! The newer ones seem to have been cured.

 

We met a Belgian couple in France earlier this year who had a total clutch failure on a Chausson on a Ford Transit with 2500 kms on the clock.

 

We have a Bessacar E425 bought new last year and yes, I could make it judder if I was reversing on grass uphill.

 

I have posted on the subject before and will say again that when we spoke to Fiat at the motorhome show in Birmingham earlier this year they took my details passed them on to customer services who rang me, and with no hesitation arranged to do the complete upgrade for me at the local Fiat dealers without any hesitation.

 

All in all would I buy another Fiat based vehicle? I would reply without any hesitation YES.

 

If you were to believe that there are no issues with any make other than Fiat read any makers forums and you would not buy a motorhome full stop!!

 

Once again thanks to Andy Stothert for all the hard work he put in with regard to the Fiat judder

 

 

Pete

 

 

[euroserv]

I can confirm what Andy said regarding upgraded clutches for the 3.0 engine. There are two part numbers listed and the change happened in November 2008. If you try to order the earlier one it will be superceded by the late one so it is an upgrade. The good news is that you can order a 'reconditioned' clutch kit for the 3.0 vans which you cannot get for any of the others; it will save you over £100 if you ever have to replace one outside warranty. It's part number 71793642 and I bet Moynes van that you will get a brand new one in the box! Don't get ripped off by Fiat dealers; always ask if there is a reconditioned item listed for whatever you need.

 

I can confirm also that there have still been no modifications to the gearboxes of 3.0 vans at all, and that the clutch used in the Manual and comfort-matics is exactly the same, so will be of the later design if produced after November 2008 whichever gearbox it has. Have to say that my comfort-matic was built in May 2008 so has the old type and has been trouble free.

 

The message is clear..... you cannot trust a van that has not been modified and was built before April 2009. Check any potential used purchase very thoroughly. You cannot trust Fiat either because it took a herculean effort to get them to do anything at all about this and they sure as hell will not be offering to help anyone with a problem van when the warranty has run out.

 

I also completely agreee that just about all manufacturers are just about the same when it comes to owning up to and correcting poor designs.

 

Nick

[LordThornber]

euroserv - 2010-09-09 1:30 PM

 

The message is clear..... you cannot trust a van that has not been modified and was built before April 2009. Check any potential used purchase very thoroughly. You cannot trust Fiat either because it took a herculean effort to get them to do anything at all about this and they sure as hell will not be offering to help anyone with a problem van when the warranty has run out.

 

I also completely agreee that just about all manufacturers are just about the same when it comes to owning up to and correcting poor designs.

 

Nick

 

Well, for a person who's business has valuable hands on experience of these vehicles, not just one as most folk do, that looks like good, solid advice.

 

Martyn

[moyne]

Mu engineer just left having looked briefly at my vehicle again and I am happy to report that this vehicle remains as it is "Not fit for the purpose for which it was intended" now that is the nicest way to put it without being rude.

 

So we can now finally proceed with our action "Finaly" by the way we still have not received a copy of a report of the inspection which was carried several months ago by a representative of Fiat. This was the time that they sent someone from the uk to take the vehicle for a 5 minute drive. No other activity took place and this was supposed to be an engineeering inspection.

 

I look forward to the activities which are to follow !

[Guest Peter James]

Try talking to whitevanman in his X250 when parked at the motorway services having his break. I have spoken directly to the drivers of about 15 X250 commercial vans, some with well over 100,000 miles on the clock. Once they realised that I wasn't trying to sell them anything and only wanted to find out what they thought of their X250 vans every single one was friendly and happy to talk about it, every single one was very happy with their van, and not one of them had even heard of the judder problem. Not one.

When I explained that I had read about it on motorhome forums the usual comment was some motorhome owners probably haven't got enough to do to occupy the mind.

As for my own experience, I have a 2008 manufactured X250 (Citroen Relay 120 6 speed) L4 H2 van and am delighted with it. No problems whatsoever, apart from the Smartnav and that was a freebie so I can't complain.

[Rayjsj]

Peter James,

I don't know if you have read past threads on this subject ?

But if you have you will realise that many folk on this forum have had VERY serious problems with their vehicles, and being told that they are liars and need to find ' A life' , is very Insulting, If you have spoken to 15 'Whitevan men' then you would have had to seek them out, as Ford and Mercedes commercially used vehicles outnumber them (the 'Sevel' ones) at least 10 to 1, (don't take my word for it, next time you are on the M1/M4/M5 just count them !!) and 'whitevan men' (mostly) didn't have to spend £40,000 pounds of their own money for the privilage of driving around in one. And any repairs are 'done for them'. Not so the hapless Motorhome owner.

Whether you like it or not Sevel manufactured vehicles of the X250 type have a large question mark over their mechanical reliability in the gearbox department. Again because of ACTUAL problems not heresay. Ray

[Guest Peter James]

Rayjsj - 2010-09-10 10:15 AM

 

being told that they are liars and need to find ' A life' , is very Insulting, Ray

 

Now that is not what I said is it?

 

Its just that kind of exaggeration that makes me wonder what else you are exaggerating.

 

 

[LordThornber]

Peter James - 2010-09-10 12:05 PM

 

Rayjsj - 2010-09-10 10:15 AM

 

being told that they are liars and need to find ' A life' , is very Insulting, Ray

 

Now that is not what I said is it?

 

Its just that kind of exaggeration that makes me wonder what else you are exaggerating.

 

 

I was wondering about this myself 8-)

 

Martyn

[davew]

We need more Peter James'

 

I like his style!

[oldlowie]

My understanding was that the judder was only a problem on motorhomes because they always run at or near their maximum weight.

 

There never was an issue with "white vans", was there (?)

[colin]

oldlowie - 2010-09-11 10:57 AM

 

My understanding was that the judder was only a problem on motorhomes because they always run at or near their maximum weight.

 

There never was an issue with "white vans", was there (?)

 

Yes WVM can make one judder, it appears to be loading throu the drive train, so when WVM has a decent load and reverses off drive at work onto the grassy slope, if said grass is soft then van judders

[Rayjsj]

If it was just the judder and no actual damage was caused, I'm sure this 'Characteristic' of the breed could be overlooked, but when you are slipping the clutch like crazy to keep the speed in reverse down.(so you don't 'fly' off the levelling ramps like Evel Kenivel, sorry that WAS an exaggeration !!) some damage is inevitably being caused. ask Andy Stothert, His wasn't a large coachbuilt van, but a PVC very similar to white van mans type of steed. His has 'Eaten' two gearboxes. Ray

[Guest Peter James]

I was in Lynemouth earlier this year, having a nice walk round in the early evening when I started to smell burning. Walking towards it I saw a newish Volvo car with smoke pouring from the bonnet. The driver had gone down the steadily narrowing road along the back of the houses and was having to reverse out. He was reversing out so slowly, and slipping the clutch so much, the clutch must have been on fire. It occured to me than no vehicle would stand an unlimited amount of clutch slipping before it overheats. Especially modern vehicles with their dual mass flywheels having less metal in contact with the clutch lining to soak up the heat?

 

My self converted 1998 X250 (Citroen Relay 120 6 speed L4 H2) van runs at about 3200kg all the time. I agree that the reverse gear is higher than ideal, but it has never been a problem, even when I had to reverse about a quarter of a mile up a 30% hill (the coast road about 2 miles south of Widemouth Bay in Cornwall)

I can see that more weight, soft ground, or reversing slowly up levelling ramps would not make things any better though.

 

I am beginning to wonder whether having had 'the fix' done is an advantage or not, given that few garages seem able to strip and rebuild a gearbox to factory standards?

[flicka]

Peter James - 2010-09-11 8:29 PM

 

My self converted 1998 X250 (Citroen Relay 120 6 speed L4 H2) van runs at about 3200kg all the time. I agree that the reverse gear is higher than ideal, but it has never been a problem, even when I had to reverse about a quarter of a mile up a 30% hill (the coast road about 2 miles south of Widemouth Bay in Cornwall)

I can see that more weight, soft ground, or reversing slowly up levelling ramps would not make things any better though.

 

I am beginning to wonder whether having had 'the fix' done is an advantage or not, given that few garages seem able to strip and rebuild a gearbox to factory standards?

 

Well PETER, that just illustrates your understanding of the situation.

If yours is a 1998, IT IS NOT an X/250.

The X/250 is a new model introduced in 2006.

So no more unqualified remarks please. >:-( >:-(

[flicka]

Oops hit submit twice

 

[nowtelse2do]

It also means he hasn't read the threads of Andy's as well.

Dave

[Guest Peter James]

flicka - 2010-09-11 10:24 PM

 

Peter James - 2010-09-11 8:29 PM

 

My self converted 1998 X250 (Citroen Relay 120 6 speed L4 H2) van runs at about 3200kg all the time. I agree that the reverse gear is higher than ideal, but it has never been a problem, even when I had to reverse about a quarter of a mile up a 30% hill (the coast road about 2 miles south of Widemouth Bay in Cornwall)

I can see that more weight, soft ground, or reversing slowly up levelling ramps would not make things any better though.

 

I am beginning to wonder whether having had 'the fix' done is an advantage or not, given that few garages seem able to strip and rebuild a gearbox to factory standards?

 

Well PETER, that just illustrates your understanding of the situation.

If yours is a 1998, IT IS NOT an X/250.

The X/250 is a new model introduced in 2006.

So no more unqualified remarks please. >:-( >:-(

 

Sorry, Mine is a 2008 as I said in the earlier post. I put 1998 in the other post by mistake. Thank you for pointing it out. :$

 

(It was actually first registered in July 2009, but I got about £12,000 discount from Perrys as it was old stock/cancelled order, and I have seen parts on it with manufacturing dates around March 2008.)

 

Every other comment still stands.

[nowtelse2do]

So it's a self converted  from Perry's..... cant say I seen one of them.

Dave

[Guest Peter James]

It was just an ordinary commercial van when I bought it new from Perrys, and have since fitted it out. One of the reasons I bought the van and did it myself is that none of the professional converters use the L4 version, I don't know why. The longest van they use is the L3, with 2 cubic metres less interior space, and 15" wheels. The windscreen price of this one (Autosleeper Warwick) in the local Brownhills (Newark) is £46,000. I paid £17,200 on the road for the larger van with 16" wheels, Ply lining, Bluetooth, 270 degree doors).

 

Another reason I fitted it out myself is that I don't want so many windows as it makes it like a greenhouse in hot weather, and less secure.

 

I am wondering if some people would expect more from the van having paid more for it as as motorhome, perhaps expecting it to drive like a £46,000 car instead of a £15,000 van with £31,000 of goods in the back?

[colin]

Peter James - 2010-09-12 12:02 AM

One of the reasons I bought the van and did it myself is that none of the professional converters use the L4 version, I don't know why. The longest van they use is the L3, with 2 cubic metres less interior space, and 15" wheels.

 

Now out of date info, the main players are using L4s, they have been all along but not importing into UK, also AFAIK any UK builder like NVC etc will build you one on an L4. I have an L4 van which hopefully! will be here next month.

[Guest Peter James]

colin - 2010-09-12 11:59 AM

 

Peter James - 2010-09-12 12:02 AM

One of the reasons I bought the van and did it myself is that none of the professional converters use the L4 version, I don't know why. The longest van they use is the L3, with 2 cubic metres less interior space, and 15" wheels.

 

Now out of date info, the main players are using L4s, they have been all along but not importing into UK, also AFAIK any UK builder like NVC etc will build you one on an L4. I have an L4 van which hopefully! will be here next month.

 

Thanks for the update, I will look forward to seeing them. I think the L4 is much better, not just for the extra length itself, but the fact that all the extra length is behind the back axle counterbalancing the weight on the front. I read that the current L3 professional conversion with 15" wheels is overloaded on the front axle with 4 people aboard.

 

I think the professional conversions are probably worth the money if you want all the stuff that is inside them. Would be interesting to know what discounts are given off the windscreen price of a motorhome?

[Guest JudgeMental]

So please what is differnce between a L3 - L4. And how do you know what you are buying? :-S