The Fiat judder question - again!

[Phoebesky]

In my ongoing quest for a MH with rear lounge and overhead bed, I've noted with interest that my local dealer has for sale an Autotrail Apache, registered September 2008. It is exactly the spec I'm looking for and as an existing Autotrail (Miami) owner, I'm happy with Autotrail.

However - (isn't there always a 'however'?!) - the Apache runs on a Fiat 2.3 JTD. Our Miami in on a Renault Master which we like.

From everything I've read, a Fiat 2.5 from 2008 should ring alarm bells.

Can anybody tell me if I should be concerned or is the juddering X250 something different?

Many thanks

[dawki]

I think you will find that is the same judder model

[Pickle Pot]

What years/makes are judder-immune then? I keep sucking my teeth over Fiats - I really wanted to discount them entirely but it's pretty darned difficult when every other van is on one, especially end lounge models! I assumed that if the van is pre 2007 or post 2009 I'd be OK, and I thought the 3 litre engine was OK too - is that right?

[Mike88]

The 3 litre is NOTalright; its the worst of the lot as Fiat fail to acknowledge the existence of any problem. However, the 3 litre with Comfortmatic (auto) gearbox is fine and has never been a problem.

[Pickle Pot]

Mike88 - 2010-08-30 8:45 PM

 

The 3 litre is NOTalright; its the worst of the lot as Fiat fail to acknowledge the existence of any problem. However, the 3 litre with Comfortmatic (auto) gearbox is fine and has never been a problem.

 

Thanks Mike - so given that an auto gearbox is not for us, then pretty much any Fiat is ruled out from 2007-2009.

 

Out of curiousity, has anyone tested their Fiat by reversing it up a hill as suggested, only to find it passed initially then failed a few months down the line?

[flicka]

Hi Pickle Pot

The OLD model (2002 -2006) did not have the problem.

Regarding the NEW Sevel model, having read various Forums.

My conclusions/observations are:-

1 -ANY engine / gearbox configuration can be affected in some way.

2 -Motorhomes with a long rear overhang appear to be the more susceptable to the "Judder"

3 -The majority of posts relate to the 2.3 litre 130bhp as the more susceptable to the "Judder"

4 - Majority of problems are reported on the Fiat base. I assume the 2.3/130 is Fiat specific ??????

BUT the Peugeots are not immune from the problem. I have not seen any reports on the Citroen based vans (but they do represent a very low % of Motorhomes.)

4 - A smaller % of 2.2 litre 100bhp vans are susceptable to the "Judder"

5 - Again a smaller % of the 3.0 litre 157bhp with the MANUAL Gearbox, have been reported

6 - An even smaller % of the 3.0 litre 157bhp Comfortmatic (AUTOMATIC)have been reported.

Majority of problems are reported on the Fiat base. I assume the 2.3/130 is Fiat specific ??????

7 - It appears very few vans have a Certificate to say the Gearbox work has been carried - out.

8 - Irrespective of which badge (FIAT, PEUGEOT OR CITROEN) it is in your own interest to TEST the individual Motorhome in reverse up a hill.

9 - If a dealer/seller is not prepared to let you do this TEST, WALK AWAY.

10 - Remember that any Motorhome on sale would have been built well before it appears on a Dealers forecourt. There are still some 2009 manufactured Motorhomes (where the Vehicle build could be 2008) that are still on the forecourts UNREGISTERED.

 

 

 

[Pickle Pot]

Thanks Flicka. So in other words, the end lounge layout would be particularly susceptible because of the longer overhang. And if the old model didn't have the problem for sure, and there can be a long time delay between manufacture and registration, it's possible that a 2008 plated van could be on the old base. So my 2007-2009 rule of thumb is a completely useless theory :-)

 

Dealers do have a knack of making you feel that there's absolutely no reason why you should worry about anything being wrong with the vehicle they're so keen to show you ...

 

 

[colin]

The first pic is of the earlier model, second is the later model which maybe affected by judder.

[bromleyxphil]

Hi

 

I have an 09 Apache 634U on a 2.3, I was worried about the "Fiat problem" before I bought it. I have had no problems with reverse gear and I have reversed up some big hills particularly on a trip to France at Easter. Its a fantastic van to own and use, a few niggles with the Autotrail bit but ce-la-vie life is now an open road.

[Pickle Pot]

Thanks for that, Colin, so it's the old style snouty nosed van that's the definitely safe one - and I suspect in my price range that's more likely to be the one I'll see!

 

Bromleyxphil - good to hear you sounding so enthusiastic about yours. It does just seem to be the luck of the draw whether people hit problems or not.

 

I still don't understand why there's not more vans built on a ford transit base though! I thought it'd be a piece of cake to find one, but it's looking pretty damn impossible :-(

[mike 202]

The Ford/Fiat question again.

 

I think that basically Ford charge for their product and Fiat give theirs away with a packet of cereals. So converters prefer to by cereals.

 

It is always a question of money, a manufacturer cannot charge a lot more for what is inevitably the same body and internals put onto different base vehicles. Sooo profit gain or loss is the driver and while lots of people still buy Fiat, what would you do as the Financial guru at a converters??

[flicka]

BUT - Autotrail produce their most expensive motorhomes plus their budget EXCEL range on FIATS.

They then produce their lowest cost motorhome Trigano Tributes in the same factory on the Ford TRANSIT.

So why no option on their up market products ???????????????????

 

Dethleffs are the same main models on Fiats, Sunlight budget range on Ford Transit

Again Hymer mainly Fiats, but Carada budget range on Ford Transit

Again Chausson upper & middle market range on Fiats, Flash budget range on Ford Transits.

Where's the logic (?)

[AliB]

flicka - 2010-08-30 8:56 PM

 

 

2 -Motorhomes with a long rear overhang appear to be the more susceptable to the "Judder"

 

 

 

I would be interested to know where this statement originated. Has somebody carried out a survey and found that long overhang vehicles have more problems?

 

I found long wheelbased Fords wallowed on corners or even in a sidewind. So much so that it made it impossible for a travel-sick prone person to travel in the rear seats.

The Fiat gives a much smoother ride.

 

No problems since the lower gear modifcation was carried out by a Fiat garage early 2009.

 

So far I have found Fiat customer service to be very helpful. Call them with the vehicle details and they will tell you if the vehicle has had the modifications.

 

I would be wary of a non modified vehicle but would have no hesitation in buying a modified vehicle.

[Guest Tracker]

This should be simples enough to resolve?

 

Just test drive the thing making it crystal clear about your reservations to the salesman and reverse it up a slope and around a bend and again on grass if you get the chance.

 

If it judders it's a judderer and if it don't judder it's not a judderer!

 

As I understand it (and I don't have and will not have one) some do - some don't judder - but just because it may not now it don't mean that it won't judder at some point in the future?

 

I also believe that individual driving style would have an influence on propensity to judder because you can make any vehicle judder if you try hard enough.

 

That however is not meant as a slur on anybody's driving ability or experience but it may well be that some people are better at feeling the judder start and reducing it than others?

 

But what do I know - except that............................

 

Life's a gamble - and so are Fiats!

[Pickle Pot]

Tracker - 2010-08-31 12:59 PM

 

This should be simples enough to resolve?

 

[.....]

 

If it judders it's a judderer and if it don't judder it's not a judderer!

 

[......]

 

but just because it may not now it don't mean that it won't judder at some point in the future?

 

apols for the editing of your post, but I think you might just have encapsulated my problem with buying any new-ish Fiat right there! (lol)

[Mike88]

Why not ask the dealer for a printout of the service record? They will be able to establish from any Fiat garage whether the modification has been done simply by keying in the registration number.

[RogP]

Hi Phoebesky

 

we have a 2007 Apache 700SE on the 2.3 130 base , which is probably similar to the 2008 in many ways.

 

My reversing needs are mostly on/off my driveway (which has a slope and entails a total manouve distance of about 25 meters) , on/off a pitch usually hardstanding , and on/off levellers and the usual out and about stuff like parking etc etc.

 

Hand on heart for the usage we give it I haven't experienced the judder , I may be lucky , I may not be using it in a manner that manifests the problem but I haven't had any issue with mine that causes me any worry.

 

Thats not to say I dont think there's an issue , those that have had problems clearly have. But there also seems to be ample people who haven't had them.

 

Judder aside

 

What I will say , double check you are happy with the bathroom size. I feel its too small and laid out badly. Annoyingly for us we didn't pay enough attention to the bathroom and its layout. It doesn't work for us , but I think later models do differ slightly

 

Its a minor thing but take another look at it and make sure you are happy you can use it OK , i.e take a seat and try and close the door.

 

We'll live with ours for now as the MH on the whole meets our needs but we certainly wont overlook it again.

 

Finally I think there may be the odd 700 on the Merc chasis , very rare , we missed out on one earlier this year , and haven't seen another since but there may be one or two about

[rolandrat]

Mike88, Do you own a 3ltr Fiat x250? I own one and I think they are BRILLIANT, I am aware that odd owners have issues with them but at the end of the day every manufacturer has the odd problem from time to time. The engine is rated at 6.5tonnes and can be uprated to almost 200bhp if you need it to be. Anyone that doesn't own one should at least road test one and you will be pleasantly surprised. The 3m's always carries the x250 3ltr advert but not the 2.3, I wonder why?

[rupert123]

flicka - 2010-08-31 12:44 PM

 

BUT - Autotrail produce their most expensive motorhomes plus their budget EXCEL range on FIATS.

They then produce their lowest cost motorhome Trigano Tributes in the same factory on the Ford TRANSIT.

So why no option on their up market products ???????????????????

 

Dethleffs are the same main models on Fiats, Sunlight budget range on Ford Transit

Again Hymer mainly Fiats, but Carada budget range on Ford Transit

Again Chausson upper & middle market range on Fiats, Flash budget range on Ford Transits.

Where's the logic (?)

 

The logic or not is pretty simple John. First the much stated 'fact' that Fiat are very cheap to buy in the M/H base form is pure speculation. Second the makers know the Fiat base is the best so use it on their best models. From what you are saying the 'fact' would appear to be that the Transit is the cheap base.

[Mike88]

rolandrat - 2010-08-31 4:35 PM

 

Mike88, Do you own a 3ltr Fiat x250? I own one and I think they are BRILLIANT, I am aware that odd owners have issues with them but at the end of the day every manufacturer has the odd problem from time to time. The engine is rated at 6.5tonnes and can be uprated to almost 200bhp if you need it to be. Anyone that doesn't own one should at least road test one and you will be pleasantly surprised. The 3m's always carries the x250 3ltr advert but not the 2.3, I wonder why?

 

Yes I own a 2010 Swift MondiaL 3 litre with Comfortmatic box and its brilliant. Was it something I said or have you confused me with someone else?

[flicka]

rupert123 - 2010-08-31 4:41 PM

 

flicka - 2010-08-31 12:44 PM

 

BUT - Autotrail produce their most expensive motorhomes plus their budget EXCEL range on FIATS.

They then produce their lowest cost motorhome Trigano Tributes in the same factory on the Ford TRANSIT.

So why no option on their up market products ???????????????????

 

Dethleffs are the same main models on Fiats, Sunlight budget range on Ford Transit

Again Hymer mainly Fiats, but Carada budget range on Ford Transit

Again Chausson upper & middle market range on Fiats, Flash budget range on Ford Transits.

Where's the logic (?)

 

The logic or not is pretty simple John. First the much stated 'fact' that Fiat are very cheap to buy in the M/H base form is pure speculation. Second the makers know the Fiat base is the best so use it on their best models. From what you are saying the 'fact' would appear to be that the Transit is the cheap base.

 

I'm NOT saying anything Rupert, just asking the question.

but it would not be logical for manufacturers to use the Cheapest Base Vehicle for their cheapest range of Motorhomes.

[rolandrat]

Mike88, if you track back Mike you will see what you said about the 3ltr. As you say, you have the Auto version, I have the manual one which I haven't got a problem with, I can reverse up any slope or hill, judder free. What I say to people is bear in mind that the clutch material is asbestos free and the slip characteristics are slightly different. I will agree that the reverse gear could be much lower to allow for the different material composition.

[flicka]

AliB - 2010-08-31 12:50 PM

 

flicka - 2010-08-30 8:56 PM

 

 

2 -Motorhomes with a long rear overhang appear to be the more susceptable to the "Judder"

 

 

 

I would be interested to know where this statement originated. Has somebody carried out a survey and found that long overhang vehicles have more problems?

 

QUOTE]

 

AliB

I think you are taking this out of context, I did state that the post was based on MY conclusions / observations,

No where did I state that it was a result of any survey.

Deliberately, at no point did I compare the Sevel vehicle to any other manufacturer.

Regarding the specific point you raise:

The first 2 or 3 threads regarding the Fiat Gearbox problem, on this forum, (although originally created by Andy Stothert regarding his difficulties with his Panel Van Conversion) were littered with a high No. where the juddering problem was on long overhang coachbuilt motorhomes.

The same was replicated on other forums, I have viewed over the last 3 years.

My observations were influential on our choice of Motorhome.

1 - Peugeot, rather than Fiat.

2 - 2.2litre 100bhp 5 speed, rather than 2.3litre 130bhp 6 speed

3 - Short(ish) rear overhang. (6.08m) which is only marginally longer than the PVC (5.99m)

Whether we are fortunate or lucky, we have not experienced any sign of the "judder" with our choice - & yes, I did test it before accepting the Motorhome.

Also the "water leak" problem had been rectified, by the time we purchased.

[Shaun]

Even Andy Stothert concluded that the judder was something of a red herring, so to now focus so heavily on that single aspect, diverts attention away from what the judder actually means.

 

If we go back two or three years, Fiat stated that any vibration was within normal parameters and/or down to driver error. This nonsense had rather a lot of owners up in arms, which eventually culminated in Fiat backing down and being prepared to make alterations to clutch, gearbox and other bits and pieces (but only for those owners who complained). There was no general recall, so it's entirely possible there are still many unmodified used motorhomes still in circulation.

 

The judder itself isn't really the issue; it's whether the vehicle concerned is likely to suffer ill-effects from the judder's cause. Andy's high-profile writings about his own panel van problems, no doubt had Fiat squirming. Here was a regular travel writer for a prominent motorhome magazine, telling as many people as he could, that he'd suffered gearbox failure (twice if I recall correctly), due to a design flaw in the Ducato X250.

 

Yet many owners could appreciate that Andy had to reverse in mountain goat territory, where the defect was understandably going to be tested much more than for those of us whose reversing was far less arduous. However, despite these fundamental differences in what terrain a given X250 was likely to encounter (which in itself led to many forum disagreements as to whether or this was a real problem or only a theoretical one), there was a more rudimentary issue which did have general agreement amongst owners: reverse gear was far too high.

 

The judder has largely been a symptom of that too-high gearing, though there have been various other causes cited, such as incorrect engine mounts and suchlike. Fiat did try the cheaper fix of new mounts, which did seem to satisfy some owners, but most still experienced judder, and so moved onto the 'proper' fix.

 

Before my van was done, I had no problem controlling the judder during the tests I did, but only if I was prepared to travel backwards with limited vision, at a very disconcerting speed! Slowing things down meant riding the clutch, which along with judder, could induce the stench of a burning friction plate. So, along with the risk of premature clutch failure, the vibration during such incidents was a worry, as it was the cause (in cases like Andy's), of a knackered gearbox.

 

Because Fiat's fix has essentially been to slow reverse down and to fit a beefier clutch, new X250s and those which have had the modifications, are likely to be less problematic than unmodified vehicles. For those in their original state, even on the flat, that the too-high reverse gear makes it difficult to back into a tight spot without lots of clutch-riding and the attendant risk of premature failure of one sort or another.

 

Despite all this, I've yet to reverse in any kind of compromising situation in over two years with my van. All my uphills have been for testing purposes in order to report to Fiat during the fixes. Yes, the judder was there both before and after, but I'm confident it's of little significance now the slower reverse and stronger clutch are in place.

 

I also wouldn't hesitate to buy another X250, simply because it's so good in so many areas.

 

Shaun

[Mike88]

rolandrat - 2010-08-31 7:51 PM

 

Mike88, if you track back Mike you will see what you said about the 3ltr. As you say, you have the Auto version, I have the manual one which I haven't got a problem with, I can reverse up any slope or hill, judder free. What I say to people is bear in mind that the clutch material is asbestos free and the slip characteristics are slightly different. I will agree that the reverse gear could be much lower to allow for the different material composition.

 

Thanks Roland. My previous comment relating to the 3 litre was in response to Pickle Pot's statement here:

 

"I assumed that if the van is pre 2007 or post 2009 I'd be OK, and I thought the 3 litre engine was OK too - is that right?"

 

My response was intended to remind Pickle Pot that, while Fiat had developed a fix for the 2.3 litre, no such modification had been developed for the 2.3 with manual gearbox. Indeed Fiat have denied the existence of such a problem so will not be helping out owners of these vehicles.

 

There are numerous 3 litre manual gearbox owners on here and MHF who are dissatisfied with the response from Fiat. The most disenchanted of these is a member on here - Moyne - who in fact is taking/has taken legal action against Fiat. (All has gone quiet on this front so it is possible that Fiat have compensated him and tied him to a confidentiality agreement). Another 3 litre member was organising a convoy to Fiat HQ but this seems to have fizzled out.

 

The essential point to make is that if you buy a Fiat 3 litre with manual gearbox that judders, Fiat will tell you that the judder is an acceptable idiosyncracy of the vehicle and will not help even if the vehicle is under warranty. That is what I meant by saying the 3 litre with manual gearbox was the worst of the lot.

 

I'm glad that yours does not judder suggesting that all vehicles are not inflicted with the problem that others have experienced. As you point out, the engine is fantastic.