Smart Car "A" Framing damage

[PeteH]

Hi

 

It was suggested that I start a new Topic. Partly as "heads up" for those currently (or considering) towing a "Smart" on an "A" Frame.

 

The facts are:- Following the Lincoln Steam Fair we towed our newly acquired Smarty on a 90 mile journey to a site near Harrogate (Yorks) on arrival we detached the car and sited the R-V. We then found Smarty would not fire up, I called out the RAC who diagnosed possible fault with crankshaft sensor. Because we thought we had some warranty, it was uplifted to the supplying dealer. On our return we discovered that the vehicle clutch had disintegrated, the "flywheel" element having fractured into 4 parts!! and in doing so had also damaged the gearbox casing. The estimated repair bill is now in excess of the value of the vehicle.

 

The dealer is currently "hiding behind" a statement in the smart handbook with allegedly advises "towing no more than 50km and at no more than 50km/hr", citing the fact that we had towed in excess of 800 miles in this "non approved" manner during the course of our holiday!. A fact we where totally unaware of until they advised us. And is refusing to finance ANY refurbishment.

 

We made the purchase in good faith, believing that, as we had seen several others being "A" framed, it was acceptable practice for this vehicle and having "A" framed 2 previous Fiat Punto`s all over Europe without problem. Indeed having seen one "A" framed Smart in Spain in 2009, we where confident that it must be acceptable practice.

 

Having now seen the stripped vehicle I know that the drive train is essentially a manual one which has an electronically controlled actuator to operate the clutch in place of a pedal!. the drive-train is therefore essentially "manual". This is exactly the same as the "auto-clutch" which was offered by TB turbo a few years back (which we had considered having fitted to our first Punto), and which allows "Semi-Auto" operation, you just ignore the clutch pedal.

 

I have been advised by Trading Standards that My next move is to reject the vehicle as being "unfit for purpose". Citing the fact that the "sale of goods" act makes it incumbent upon a dealer to supply a vehicle fit for (the) purpose required. Including use as a towing vehicle (or in this case being towed), and of which fact the sales team where fully aware. I currently await their response.

 

Can I however via the Forum ask, if anyone has had experiences similar, or has towed a Smart ("A" frame) now or in the past to p.m. me? as the collection of statistical evidence could be useful to my case. I WILL NOT use names etc. I only need the statistics any thing else will remain anonymous and confidential.

 

Pete

 

 

 

[nowtelse2do]

Unfortunately, I have heard that it was better to trailer a Smart than tow one, its was a query i put forward on another thread on here earlier this year. Not 100% sure but I think it says in the hand book not to tow, Sorry for your problems.

Dave 

[John J Thompson]

nowtelse2do - 2010-09-12 10:07 AM

Unfortunately, I have heard that it was better to trailer a Smart than tow one, its was a query i put forward on another thread on here earlier this year. Not 100% sure but I think it says in the hand book not to tow, Sorry for your problems.

Dave 

We trailer our Smart as we don't want to risk damage or unnecessary wear and tear. We use the Bantam Smart Car Trailer. It also comes in handy to carry poles for my amateur radio mast and acts as a ground plane as well.Some friend of ours A-Framed their near new Smart car from Hexham to Dover. They set it into neutral but didn't (they think) depress the brake pedal at the same time, so the vehicle returned itself into drive mode.They thought it seemed a bit heavier to pull than normal but thought nothing more of it. As they were driving over the ramp to the ferry they hear a clatter and the engine had dropped out into the ramp covering it with oil. The Ferry company fork lifted there car and the engine out of the way and were very annoyed at having to clear the oil off the ramp before they could continue loading.John

[Dave Newell]

Frankly I'm amazed at the advice from Trading Standards as it clearly says in the owners handbook that the car shouldn't be towed in its wheels for more than 50Km at a max speed of 50KPH. This sort of damage is usually caused by the box being in gear by mistake, if that's the case then I'm afraid its totally down to yourself. Sorry to be so blunt but that's my take on it.

 

D.

[Clive]

Sorry but Dave Newell is right. The potential problems of "A" framing a Smart are well documented.

Inadequate research has landed you with a written off car.

Try a Citroen C1 or Tayota Aygo next time for A framing.

 

C.

 

 

 

[colin]

PeteH - 2010-09-12 7:57 AM

Citing the fact that the "sale of goods" act makes it incumbent upon a dealer to supply a vehicle fit for (the) purpose required. Including use as a towing vehicle (or in this case being towed), and of which fact the sales team where fully aware.

 

IF the dealer sold you this car knowing that it "WOULD BE TOWED WITH AN 'A' FRAME", then you may have some come back, IF on the otherhand it was sold to you as being suitable for "TOWING" behind a motorhome then if you did not comply with manufacturers method of towing, i.e. on a trailer, you will have no come back. Have you got any writen advise from the dealer which countermands the advise given in the handbook?

[vicwo]

Pete sorry to here of your problems. I doubt very much you will get anywhere with you claim against the garage. They may have known that you cant tow a car at 50km as stated in the handbook but a sale is a sale to them. They wont try and put you off if they want your dosh.

Saying that i have towed on a frame for three years now and have done south of France 6 times from Yorkshire with no problems. I do take care that the car is out of gear and no key left in ignition. I check and double check and that is the only way. I have been driving Smarts now for 11 years and i like to think i know them well enough. but its all down to checking before you move.

I do hope you get a good result.

 

Vic

[Mel B]

Hi Peter

 

I'm sorry to hear of your problems, the subject of towing Smart cars has been discussed many times on here, some people do it, some don't.

 

As Colin has said, it will depend very much on exactly WHAT was said/confirmed by the dealer when you bought it, and what exactly they were TOLD by you about how you intended to use it, for you to get anywhere with them. I suspect that the dealer may come back and say that had you read the handbook then you would have known about the manufacturer's restrictions and therefore may have chosen NOT to tow it as you did. Or that, if you had read the handbook, you could've gone back to them BEFORE any damage was caused and tried to get your money back. I wish we all had a crystal ball, life would be so much easier.

 

I really do wish you luck and hope you get the outcome you want - please do let us know how you get on.

[colin]

Maybe would have been a good idea to have read the thread you started also.

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=20411&posts=10

[Rosbotham]

OK, first of all I'll answer the question posed by the OP, rather than getting into the "serves you right for a-framing a Smart" type feedback.

 

You may need to narrow down your query as there's 2 generations of Smart.

 

I had a 2004 model, which had been a-framed by a previous owner. I understand they'd had it for 18 months, so it's reasonable to guess that they'd covered thousands of miles. I pulled it behind my motorhome for approx 8000 miles over 14 months, incident free (correction : I snapped a braking cable once, and a spring clip fell out of the front brake disk calipers). I sold it to someone else 10 months ago - they're still in touch every now & again and so far as I know they're still pulling it behind their motorhome trouble free.

 

Onto the conjecture.

All Smarts are automated manuals as you describe. I have seen it posted on boards before now that the gearbox manufacturer has confirmed that the box is fine for towing in neutral, contrary to the more conservative position from Smart. If I was a gambling man, I'd say the car was accidentally left in gear. It's easy to do...position of the gear lever is no indicator as in essence it's an electronic controller - I managed to fool ours on a couple of occasions so the car wouldn't start (must be in N) but the gearstick was in the N position. The only way to be absolutely categorically sure is to pull the car physically the last couple of feet to the motorhome - it soon becomes clear if the box isn't in neutral or the handbrake's on.

 

One other point : I don't know if the issue you had could have been caused by oil starvation, but Smarts can use an awful lot of oil (as in 1 litre/1000 miles considered accepable by MB), so if not regularly checked that could be an issue.

 

Paul

[Brambles]

I think there could be more to this. The flywheel broke up!

Now to me the flywheel should survive a lot longer than many other bits should the smart car be towed left accidently in gear. Now if we even assume 1st gear and things were running pretty fast I would have expected the actual gearbox to have been damaged internally or even the engine internally from over speed.

If the clutch was engaged at high revs it would probably survive but if the clutch was disengaged (actuated) then there is nothing to support the clutch plate and it could break up and in doing so puts uneven pressure on the flywheel. I still cannot see this breaking the flywheel, but if the clutch cover or part of the cutch flew out and jammed against the casing then maybe undue forces could be applied to the flywheel in such a manner to break it.

 

Very hard to believe something in the box, or the engine itself would not have broken 1st such as a con rod being thown. So my question would be is there any way the flywheel was faulty in the 1st place, maybe having a hairline crack which showed itself up while being towed?

Bit of a teaser this one as to what really went wrong and and an expert investigation may still not prove anything but certainly think detailed examination of all the parts is required especiually the flywheel to establish in what way it failed and if the cracks may have been old. This can be checked by oxidation and contamination of the crack surfaces.

I think it is all to easy to say it is because it could have been left in gear.

If the failure was purely as a result f towing then I suggest a losing battle to get compensation, but if it can be proved a fault already (edited) existed and the failure was compoundd as a result then there is a very good case for a claim.

Just a few idle thoughts running through my tired brain, so don't shoot me (edit spelling) down, just trying to think laterly outside of the box so to speak.

Jon.

[PeteH]

Hi

 

Yes , as I said I got all the info AFTER the event.

 

As for towing in gear, How we approach it (as with ALL our previous cars), is to drive the car within 6 to 12" of the Tow ball, Check that the car is in neutral and handbrake off!!!. and then pull/push the car into position to couple up. thus ensuring that the vehicle is ACTUALLY in neutral and not braked. It is theoretically possible that the drive may have "dropped in" under tow which would suggest an inherent problem with the gearbox in any case.

 

The information allegedly in the handbook. was not in our possession Prior to, nor at the time of, Sale.

 

I have just checked back on the previous post , But this info came on whilst I was away on holiday anyway!!.

 

In AMERICA Smarts are allegedly sold as being towable. and we know how litigious they are!!!

 

pete

[jhorsf]

if the flywheel destructed it must have been going round fast,would this be revolving if in neutral?I dont think so?

[PeteH]

Hi

 

Flywheel would be doing the same speed as it would if the car was being driven in any specific gear, We KNOW it was in Neutral when coupled, what we do not know for certain is if it somehow "dropped back into gear" under tow, it should not have done as it allegedly LOCKS into neutral when the key is out.

 

Pete