Has Anyone Purchased An Electronically Braked A Frame From TowBars-2-TowCars In Grimsby?

[Skeggysue]

Hi Folks,

 

We have just purchased a four seater Smart ForFour to tow behind our MH and we are going to need to purchase and have fitted a new A Frame now. We decided that the 2 seater Smart, which we are currently advertising for sale, would probably be more saleable to a prospective buyer if we sold it as a complete package along with the A Frame.

 

Anyway, we have been looking at a company based in Grimsby; which is not far from us; called Tow Bars 2 Tow Cars and they have designed an electronically braked A Frame that sounds a great bit of kit but unfortunately, we cannot find much info or many reviews on this or any other motorhome related forum from folk who have purchased one of these unique A Frames! I am interested to know if there are any members out there who have had one of these A Frames fitted and if so, what is their honest opinion of them?

 

These A Frames are a little more expensive than a standard, mechanically braked A Frame but not excessively more and if they are as 'revolutionary' as they sound, then maybe the extra cost represents good value for money?

 

Here is a link to their website: http://www.tow-bars2tow-cars.co.uk/about_us.php

 

I await your replies and opinions.

 

Sue

 

[RogP]

I did contact them for a quote and felt it too expensive , £1500 comes to mind , it was certainly double what I paid eventually for the Chris Cox A Frame.

 

I also didn't get much confidence from them that my particular car was suitable for their product they just said "they think it should be". From memory I also think they needed to do a fair bit of modification to the cars electronincs (may be wrong) which I wasn't keen on and would have definately affected my warranty.

 

just didn't think it was for me in the end , but thats my personal view.

 

I cant comment further than that as I didn't deal with them in the end so they and their product may well be OK in other peoples experience so please dont be put off by myself if you ultimately prefer them to other products

[flicka]

Hi Sue & welcome to the forum.

Before you dispose of your old Smart, can I suggest you read the current threads regarding towing new Smart Cars.

Smart Car "A" Framing damage -

www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=20949&posts=14

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=20933&posts=18

[Guest Tracker]

I am unsure of the facts as I know nowt about Smarts - so shoot me down if I'm wrong - but aren't Smart cars automatic?

 

And are you not supposed to tow a car with an auto box as the wheels driving the transmission can cause damage - so you should always use a front - or driven wheels - suspended tow frame?

 

What does the Smart car handbook say about towing?

 

I too would be unhappy about altering anything an a car under warranty - and even more cautious out of warranty where I would still get the bill if it caused problems?

 

Modern cars are very complex and the days of fiddling with them to alter or improve are, I suspect, long gone?

[Dave Newell]

The Smart has an auto shifted manual transmission Richard.

 

D.

[Skeggysue]

Tracker - 2010-09-14 8:48 PM

 

I am unsure of the facts as I know nowt about Smarts - so shoot me down if I'm wrong - but aren't Smart cars automatic?

 

And are you not supposed to tow a car with an auto box as the wheels driving the transmission can cause damage - so you should always use a front - or driven wheels - suspended tow frame?

 

What does the Smart car handbook say about towing?

 

I too would be unhappy about altering anything an a car under warranty - and even more cautious out of warranty where I would still get the bill if it caused problems?

 

 

 

Modern cars are very complex and the days of fiddling with them to alter or improve are, I suspect, long gone?

 

Hi Tracker,

 

We have been towing the same Semi automatic, Smart ForTwo, 2 seater car for 5 years now and we are currently selling her because we now need a 4 seater car to tow behind our motorhome.

 

When we first bought our little Smart, she was just over a year old and in the beginning we towed her on a Brian James Trailer and that was excellent but we changed our motorhome 2 years later and due to lack of storage space for the trailer and our new motorhome not having such a big towing weight as our previous motorhome, we decided to sell the trailer and change to the increasingly popular A Frame option. That was 3 years ago now and we have towed our Smart all over the UK and Europe and in Morocco she has even been driven through the Todra Gorge's dried up river bed, where believe it or not - other vehicles couldn't manage it! We do not regret our decision one bit and my husband much prefers towing with an A Frame than towing a trailer with car.

 

We have never had a moments mechanical problem with the Smart in all the 5 years that we have owned her and she has sailed through her MOT every year! Apart from a puncture on a French motorway and the odd blown headlight bulb, we have enjoyed 5 years of trouble free towing and motoring in her and therefore, I can say from hands on experience, that towing on an A Frame does NOT cause problems to a Smart car, unless of course the driver is silly enough to NOT remember to put the gear into neutral and take off the handbrake! If they forget to do that, then they will have a BIG and COSTLY problem!

 

Our new car is a 4 year old Smart ForFour and again we will be towing her on an A Frame and based on the past 3 years of towing with an A Frame, we have no qualms or concerns whatsoever about using this method again for towing a car behind our motorhome.

 

Regards.

 

Sue

[cleo]

hi sue

We are currently towing a toyota aygo using the electronic A-frame. We travelled to spain with it last year and found the lightness of it when attaching and unattaching it fantastic. We had had a caratow one which weighed a ton - not literally I might add -so this is so easy. Yes it is more expensive £1600 it cost us £100 extra cos we have an american rv discrimation or what i ask myself. But by the time you purchase a brakebuddy they are about £1000 you are paying the same sort of money anyway. To come back to the A-frame in question we think its great and well worth the money. We have had some teething troubles but they were rectified straight away. I think the ease of using this type of A frame is worth its weight or no weight in gold!! (lol)

[Skeggysue]

Thanks Cleo and it was great to read your review and even greater to hear you are a very satisfied customer too!

 

We have decided to have a standard A Frame fitted now and it's booked into Armitages on Mon but I must say we were very tempted to go for the electronically braked one that you have. Had more satisfied customers come forward I think we would have been swayed but sadly they haven't so we decided to stick with what we know and trust!

 

I am sure the more people that opt for the electronically braked Towbars2Towcars A Frame and who subsequently report good feedback, the more confidence it will instil into new and prospective customers. And once people start to recommend both the product and the company, the more sales it will drum up from those who are deciding which A Frame device is the better option for their needs.

 

We liked the look of this A Frame though and the weight and it's neatness alone is a very big PLUS factor! Can you REALLY reverse it though?

 

Thanks for the info.

 

Sue

[Bulletguy]

Know nothing about these electronically braked A frames but from reading other posts I draw this conclusion.

 

Mechanically braked A frames or trailers have been around for donkeys years. Very little to go wrong with the mechanism and dead simple to maintain. Any parts are also extremely cheap and can often be sourced for next to nothing from breakers yards to eBay.

 

£1600 would buy you a very decent fully braked trailer.

 

About the ONLY plus point for an A frame is storage space. As for an electronic braking 'gizzmo'.......whats the point? I fail to see the benefit.

[Skeggysue]

Hi Bullet,

 

I am the original poster in this thread and had hoped to hear back from more people who'd had this new A Frame fitted. However, I think at the moment; it's still early days and there doesn't appear to be too many user reviews circulating around the various Internet forums regarding them yet!

 

It's because of all the things you mention, that in the end we have now decided to buy another mechanically braked, box standard A Frame (been using one problem free on our previous Smart car for 3 years now) We have just bought a bigger car and are in the market for a new A Frame and as we had seen the electronically braked one at various motorhome shows that we've attended this year, I must report that it is very impressive. Had we been more confident in the device itself and enjoyed being able to read more recommendations from satisfied customers, then I think we would definitely have been tempted to part with our dosh, as I promise you; aesthetically; it is far superior in construction to the standard mechanically braked A Frame. It is smaller, neater and far, far lighter and the towing points that they attach to the actual car, is unbelievably unobtrusive.

 

You ask the point of it compared to a trailer: Well prior to using an A Frame we towed our Smart on a Brian James trailer and although it was an excellently built trailer, it was large and heavy compared to an A Frame and obviously whether you were at home or on a campsite, you have another vehicle to store or park besides your motorhome and your car! Also, another major factor

we all have to consider when towing a car behind our motorhome is weight and a trailer weighs considerably more than an A Frame. Therefore, the impact on your towing weight is quite considerable

and obviously this limits your choice of car too! The reason we had to change to an A Frame in the first place, was because when

we changed our motorhome, the towing weight of the new motorhome would not accommodate the combined weight of our little Smart and our trailer!

 

Therefore, if this new electronically braked A Frame is all what it is cracked up to be (and apparently; according to their website; you can even reverse it!) Then you would have all the major advantages of a trailer but with none of the disadvantages and if

the electronically braked one, turns out to be all what it claims and more, then I would assume, it will be a winner and worth every penny!

 

I will follow it's progress with great interest and keep an open mind about it!

 

Sue

[catinou]

Hi Susan,

 

We have just returned from 3 weeks in France - covering the North, Central & down to the Med (Carcassonne area) towing our little Smart behind us. We used to have a Brian James trailer which was great except that we had to pay to store it on a caravan storage site. After 2 years of this we decided to have an A Frame fitted by Towtal. We also purchased a Brake Buddy to fit in the Smart - this is a brilliant device which means the Smart brakes are used to brake independently of the Motorhome on sudden sharp braking or on steep downhill runs when it may otherwise start "over running". Works like a dream. We know exactly when the Smart brakes are applied as we have a wireless safety checker device for the brake buddy, which sits in the cigar lighter in the motorhome and lights up red when in use. If , heaven forbid, the Smart should become detached from the towing vehicle the BB will also come into use by stopping the Smart as soon as the radio signal to the MH is lost (whilst the safety checker will light up constantly).

 

We feel much safer with this system and this year had the electrical socket changed to a 13 plug system so the Smart battery is charged from the MH as we travel - after we travelled from Italy a couple of years ago at night and the Smart battery flattened with the constant use of lights (the battery was replaced just afterwards!)

 

We certainly had a lot of interest in France this year in the set up - even being stopped at traffic lights by 2 Frenchmen who wanted to know how it all worked. One turned out to be a police officer who was interested for his own camping car....

 

I would definitely recommend this sytem. B-)

[Rosbotham]

To add to Sue's comments on trailers. I've towed my Fiat 500 on a trailer, now back on an a-frame. From experience I'd also add that;

 

a) loading / unloading a trailer is a pain the proverbial versus fitting an a-frame. If everything went right I could be fully loaded/car tied down in 20 minutes. In practise, it never did, something always glitched, whether it be ramps refusing to slot under the car on the trailer, ratchet twisting etc. A-frame is 5 minutes, full stop.

 

b) more seriously, the setup is considerably more stable on an a-frame. Having a tonne of vehicle off the ground was positively frightening in cross-winds when passing HGVs on motorway. I frequently had to ease off to counter swaying of the trailer. Perhaps it'd be better with a 4 wheel trailer, but then it's even more of a storage issue on site. Contrast a-frame, the car is so uttlerly stable you need the reversing camera to remind you it's still there.

 

c) I'm prob on limits given only 100BHP engine, but the difference between 1 tonne (a-framed car) and 1.3 tonne (car on trailer) is very noticable when you get to hills.

 

Paul

[Mike B.]

Hi Skeggy

We have towed a Citroen C1 with this system (we bought the car and the A frame from them as a package) for some 3 years now without a minutes trouble ever. Yes you can reverse it once you know what you are doing (it is automatic but you have to be carefull when breaking in reverse as it can stick at first if you are a bit havy footed)

As for the company-cannot fault them, they did a good deal, sourced a brilliant car and gave us a very good trade in on our old one. They also rewired the 7 pin to a 13 pin plug on the van free of charge and delivered the whole thing back to us as agreed in West Yorkshire-also foc.

There has been a previous thread on this company/subject so may be worth searching as there were a number of replies earlier.

Clearly it's too late for you to get one now as you have already decided on the Armitages type but for future reference, I would definitely recommend T-2-T and their system

Mike

[PJay]

Have any of you towers had a problem with "a" frame towing in Spain?

It would appear that it is illegal to tow "A" frames in Spain, and people are being fined and made to disconnect vehicle. We are very interested in towing, but as we tour mainly Spain/Portugal and FRance, would like to hear of others experiences please.

PJay

[Ivys]

We've just done our first few hundred miles using TowBars-2-TowCars A-frame.

I must say I'm pleased with our decision to go with them. Previously we used an A-frame by Towtal (drove a few thousand miles with the Towtal rig and was very pleased with it).

 

This is where I prefer TowBars-2-TowCars over Towtal:

1. Better braking. You don't really notice the car you're towing (i.e. as you're braking). With Towtal we used to "feel" the tow car push us - I suppose it has to push you to operate the brake anyway. This is a biggy for us - we simply feel safer.

2. Easier to attach the tow-car purely because the A-frame is so much lighter. Don't need to be a body builder.

3. LED on dash to show when toad is braking. It's wired in so no worries about wireless link failing

4. Easier to reverse (I don't know why - it just is - maybe because the brakes don't lock up on the toad while being pushed back)

5. MUCH easier to store and handle the A-frame. Because we switched to a Puggy 107 for towing our old Towtal A-frame would no longer have fitted into the boot. As it was the Towtal rig took up the whole of our Daihatsu Hijet boot.

6. The toad battery is charged while you drive (our toad battery ran flat once en-route and we discovered the problem at the least convenient time!).

7. I think (time will tell) that their A-frame is less prone to rust. My Towtal frame is very rusted "as we speak".

8. Brake pedal on toad still works pretty much as before. The Towtal rig was a bit of a hassle, and once when the cable got stuck we cooked the brakes.

 

I think Towtal is better in two respects:

1. The way you attach the towing vehicles number plate is easier. Not a problem for me because I have the old Towtal clip-on plate that I'll use. The clips are very easy to buy and cheap.

2. If you're parked in a dicey area you will want to take the TowBars-2-TowCars "bolts" out, which makes the process a bit longer. However, when you consider that once removed the vehicle looks pretty much in it's "original" state I really don't mind. I think that when I get the hang of it screwing them back in should take less than a minute.

 

I know there have been debates around strength of the supporting structures. I googled TowBars-2-TowCars as thoroughly as I could and didn't come up with anything negative, certainly I never found a documented and goggle-able (i.e. searchable) case on the web where their rig failed. Before they fitted I asked them what they did, and basically they "beef up" the exisitng attachement point and make a new one on the other side. They also install a pretty hefty cable that, in the event all else fails, will pull up the toad handbrake.

 

The bottom line, I've used both rigs and I prefer TowBars-2-TowCars. That's not to say I didn't like Towtal. I simply couldn't store their rig in my 107 and for the reasons stated above I prefer TowBars-2-TowCars.

 

Rog