Aggressive Atheist

[Bulletguy]

nowtelse2do - 2010-09-19 12:23 PM

 

I don't know how long it will take, but the sooner religion is fazed out of or lives the better. It causes nothing but resentment and bitterness amongst us and always has done. Dave

Thats never going to happen Dave.

 

Having a faith or belief in anything, be it religion, politics, ones self or whatever else, is perfectly normal and more importantly it's a choice. It's not a 'thing' which has suddenly been invented!

 

Your ideological view would amount to no less than a denial of basic personal freedom. Communism tried it......and failed. Nazism also attempted to stop religous practice closing Churches down and imprisoning those who dared to speak out. Possibly one of the oddest examples was Martin Niemöller who was awarded the Iron Cross as one of Germanys most successful U Boat captains in the First World War. He went on to study theology before the Second World War and was imprisoned in Dachau and Sachsenhausen.

 

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/GERniemoller.htm

[duffers]

unless I'm missing something - no one is talking about imposing atheism

simply wishing to see an end to divisive tribal attitudes

hoping that we grew up enough as a race that we can phase out such things

 

 

 

as for Martin Niemöller, I note from your link that he wasn't welcome in UK or USA either

- sounds like he was doing something right if he managed to upset everyone

[Bulletguy]

duffers - 2010-09-19 6:02 PM

 

as for Martin Niemöller, I note from your link that he wasn't welcome in UK or USA either

- sounds like he was doing something right if he managed to upset everyone

 

I don't think for a minute he expected the red carpet to be laid out, after all he was a somewhat controversial figure who came to the UK to take part in a CND march to Aldermaston.

 

There will always be divisions amongst people of all religous faiths, even political for that matter. Some hold differing views whilst still maintaining the same faith. I don't have a problem with that apart from the fundamentalist mentality.

 

 

[nowtelse2do]

Bulletguy - 2010-09-19 4:57 PM

nowtelse2do - 2010-09-19 12:23 PM I don't know how long it will take, but the sooner religion is fazed out of or lives the better. It causes nothing but resentment and bitterness amongst us and always has done. Dave

Thats never going to happen Dave. Having a faith or belief in anything, be it religion, politics, ones self or whatever else, is perfectly normal and more importantly it's a choice. It's not a 'thing' which has suddenly been invented! Your ideological view would amount to no less than a denial of basic personal freedom.

When you say it's never going to happen, that means your 100% sure. I think it as already started, just look around you. Over the past 30yrs where I live 2 out of 3 Anglican Churches have closed down, 13 other places of worship have closed, there were a lot more at onetime.

The biggest single factor of there closure's is that people no longer worship like they use to so that means they either no longer believe or care anymore.

I think that the advancement in science in the 20 century and up to present date has made people think more for themselves rather than being told what they should believe in and to also question the strange thinking's of the church.

A denial of personal freedom it is not, its like you say a freedom of personal choice and that is what I think is happening now, people are choosing not to believe anymore.

The only places of worship that I'm aware of that are growing are Mosques and Temples of the Latter Day Saints, What a choice!!

Dave  

[Bazza454]

flicka - 2010-09-16 2:21 PM (^) Will the Vatican fund my trip to Italy, with my extended family :-D Of course NOT, so why should the UK public be expected to fund the Pope & his entourage's trip to the UK. If the Pope is not happy to tour the UK without extended security, he should either provide it HIMSELF or STAY AT HOME in the Vatican. 

Apparantly the Popes visit to the UK has been viewed as a tremendous success.

On the last night of his visit he attended a Gala evening with the Archbishop of Canterbury, had a wonderful 5 course meal, fine wines, followed by under eights.................

  

[Bulletguy]

nowtelse2do - 2010-09-20 12:25 AM

Bulletguy - 2010-09-19 4:57 PM

nowtelse2do - 2010-09-19 12:23 PM I don't know how long it will take, but the sooner religion is fazed out of or lives the better. It causes nothing but resentment and bitterness amongst us and always has done. Dave

Thats never going to happen Dave.

When you say it's never going to happen, that means your 100% sure. I think it as already started, just look around you. Over the past 30yrs where I live 2 out of 3 Anglican Churches have closed down......Dave  

Yes i'm 100% sure.Just over a year ago Pubs were closing down at the rate of seven a day every week. Does this then mean alcohol will be fazed out, everyone becomes teetotal and we see a revival of the temperance movement? No. Thats never going to happen.So two churches closing after 30 years quite frankly pales into insignificance by comparison! Religion will ALWAYS be around.You said that "people are choosing not to believe anymore", but then go on to say that "Mosques and Temples of the Latter Day Saints are growing".I think that alone should illustrate the reason why I am so sure that a 'fazing out' of religion is never going to happen.

[Guest Tracker]

Er not quite! Just because pubs are closing does not mean booze sales are falling!

 

Au contraire - booze sales are rising as an ever more shallow populace seeks solace at the bottom of a bottle - but from supermarkets instead of pubs.

 

Maybe the world would be a better place without religion?

[nowtelse2do]

Bulletguy, I think I should make it clear that I was referring to the Christian faith as diminishing. There is no choice in the (male dominated) Muslim faith and that is only expanding for two reasons.

1 The immigration of Muslims.

2 The brainwashing and forced teaching of their children, just like the Christian faith use to be. 

Make what you will with the Latter Day Saints.

You missed the other 13 places of worship that I mentioned, Baptist',s, Methodist etc. As for pub's, I think there is or was far more of them than Churches and to be honest that seems a silly comparison to make (no offence intended) unless you worship alcohol. 

Maybe Judge Mental could give us a ruling on that last comment. :-D

Dave  

[Guest JudgeMental]

Dave, They will regret all this selfish flippancy when the wait until the 11th hour....... And pop their clogs at 10 minutes to it:D

 

I say hang them all! and let God sort them out! :-D

[Guest pelmetman]

JudgeMental - 2010-09-20 4:49 PM

 

Dave, They will regret all this selfish flippancy when the wait until the 11th hour....... And pop their clogs at 10 minutes to it:D

 

I say hang them all! and let God sort them out! :-D

 

But don't God luv everyone even us sinners (lol)

So when I pop me clogs and a find a set of pearly gates, I can beg for forgiveness as good as the next man, I've been married nearly 30 years so I've learn't to do begging well (lol) (lol) (lol).

[nowtelse2do]

JudgeMental - 2010-09-20 4:49 PM Dave, They will regret all this selfish flippancy when the wait until the 11th hour....... And pop their clogs at 10 minutes to it:D I say hang them all! and let God sort them out! :-D

What a sensible sentence Judge, and showing so much mercy as well. :D  I suspected that there was a certain kind of softness in you. :D :D

Dave

[maggyd]

For the ill informed and ignorent among us I think this might be of some help

 

 

Monsignor Hugh O'Flaherty, CBE (28 February, 1898 – 30 October, 1963) was an Irish priest and official of the Vatican Curia. During World War II, he was responsible for saving 6,500 Allied soldiers and Jews. Due to his ability to evade the traps set by the Gestapo, Monsignor O'Flaherty earned the nickname "the Scarlet Pimpernel of the Vatican".

 

And he was only one of hundreds of priests doing their bit.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Vatican had to keep its stance of Neutrality but that doesnt mean to say that others were not doing their bit to get rid of the Nazi,s.

 

And I find it very sad that someone that proclaims to be a man of the Cloth cannot do as the Pope did and preach TOLERANCE of other Religions and preach the 10 Commandments instead of spreading hate.

 

I am a lapsed Catholic but I thought it was lovely to watch so many people showing love to one another for a change! and Friendship between other Religions, its about time that the small minded and bigoted amongst us stuck to talking about things they know something about.

[Tony Jones]

maggyd - 2010-09-20 6:37 PM

 

And I find it very sad that someone that proclaims to be a man of the Cloth cannot do as the Pope did and preach TOLERANCE of other Religions and preach the 10 Commandments instead of spreading hate.

 

Just been re-checking my posts on this thread to make sure it's not me you're talking about Maggy. Have I missed something?

 

Tony

[flicka]

Bazza454 - 2010-09-20 12:58 AM

flicka - 2010-09-16 2:21 PM (^) Will the Vatican fund my trip to Italy, with my extended family :-D Of course NOT, so why should the UK public be expected to fund the Pope & his entourage's trip to the UK. If the Pope is not happy to tour the UK without extended security, he should either provide it HIMSELF or STAY AT HOME in the Vatican. 

Apparantly the Popes visit to the UK has been viewed as a tremendous success.

On the last night of his visit he attended a Gala evening with the Archbishop of Canterbury, had a wonderful 5 course meal, fine wines, followed by under eights.................

  

All that & not contributing a Penny >:-( They have the same mindset as those Politicians doctoring their expenses. They see it as THEIR right to enjoy fines wines & dining, at others' expense (bet he wasn't discussing the plight of all the starving African / Asian / South American Roman Catholics / Christians whilst doing so.)I can't see the Archbishop of Canterbury passing the offitory plate around so why should CofE community fund the banquet, or just maybe that Cardinal who said the UK was a third world country took pity on us & got his wallet out, But I VERY MUCH doubt it. :-(

[nowtelse2do]

The Pope dines alone.

Dave

[maggyd]

Tony Jones - 2010-09-16 1:00 PM

 

It won't surprise you that I'm not by any means an atheist, but I do agree about this visit. The idea of calling it a "State Visit" (hence taxpayer-funded) is based on the total fiction that the Vatican is a COUNTRY, when of course it's really only one bit of a city.

 

Its only "citizens" are employees of the church, and everything that matters about this visit is to do with the Roman Catholic faith, not the supposed "country" of which he's the "head of state."

 

It's as if General Motors called their little bit of Detroit an "independent state," when in fact it's just the Head Office of a multinational organisation!

 

And how much attention would a REAL State Visit from the president of (say) Luxembourg attract - which has a much bigger population and a proper governmental structure!

 

The Pope's only significance is as a religious figure, and this visit (like that of his predecessor) should be described that way, not as a "State" one.

 

 

I did expect as a minister Tony that you might have said something a little less inflammatory and more positive as to the good that can come from a visit from any Religious order! the Queen gave the invitation to the Pope and weather you agree it was a state visit or not , you would remember as Tax payers the 6million Catholics of this Country never have the chance to say weather we agree to all the money that is spent on and publicity that the Church of England get! and it is a once in some people,s lifetime. And as a matter of fact I Dont! the fact that a lot of people have dropped away is not in my opinion a good thing I much prefer the days when as children we were made to go to Church and Sunday School :-S others will disagree I know ! but the Children then had a lot more respect than they do to-day. :-D O.K. rant over Im just a Grumpy old Women who would prefer for people to use their objections to the BAD things that are happening and not knock the good.

[maggyd]

flicka - 2010-09-20 8:27 PM

Bazza454 - 2010-09-20 12:58 AM

flicka - 2010-09-16 2:21 PM (^) Will the Vatican fund my trip to Italy, with my extended family :-D Of course NOT, so why should the UK public be expected to fund the Pope & his entourage's trip to the UK. If the Pope is not happy to tour the UK without extended security, he should either provide it HIMSELF or STAY AT HOME in the Vatican. 

Apparantly the Popes visit to the UK has been viewed as a tremendous success.

On the last night of his visit he attended a Gala evening with the Archbishop of Canterbury, had a wonderful 5 course meal, fine wines, followed by under eights.................

  

All that & not contributing a Penny >:-( They have the same mindset as those Politicians doctoring their expenses. They see it as THEIR right to enjoy fines wines & dining, at others' expense (bet he wasn't discussing the plight of all the starving African / Asian / South American Roman Catholics / Christians whilst doing so.)I can't see the Archbishop of Canterbury passing the offitory plate around so why should CofE community fund the banquet, or just maybe that Cardinal who said the UK was a third world country took pity on us & got his wallet out, But I VERY MUCH doubt it. :-(

Have you checked your facts flicka?? the pope didnt have wine with his meal!! and the Catholic Church donates more to the African Countries than a lot of others! it has opened Schools,and Hospitals all paid for from the Church and sends Aid all over the World. Not sure what the Cardinal meant by a third World Country or Why he said it!! but in every walk of life you get people that come out with things that they wish they could take back.And as no-body I don't think has mentioned the Scandal of the children that were abused!! I will !! and say it is a disgrace and maybe should have been handled differently! they should have been exposed, disciplined jailed and excommunicated :-S but there you go things get covered up to protect the good name and that is a big mistake! WHY should everyone in the Church be tainted because of a few degenerates. ??

[Bulletguy]

Tracker - 2010-09-20 12:48 PM

 

Er not quite! Just because pubs are closing does not mean booze sales are falling!

Thats what I said Track.

[Bulletguy]

nowtelse2do - 2010-09-20 4:21 PM

Bulletguy, I think I should make it clear that I was referring to the Christian faith as diminishing. There is no choice in the (male dominated) Muslim faith and that is only expanding for two reasons....

Now you are clearing the clouds away and giving an actual definition!My previous posts were in reply to the sweeping generalisation which you made by stating;

nowtelse2do - 2010-09-19 12:23 PMI don't know how long it will take, but the sooner religion is fazed out of or lives the better.

Bit of a difference between your first and second post Dave!

[Bulletguy]

maggyd - 2010-09-20 6:37 PM

 

For the ill informed and ignorent among us I think this might be of some help

 

 

Monsignor Hugh O'Flaherty, CBE (28 February, 1898 – 30 October, 1963) was an Irish priest and official of the Vatican Curia. During World War II, he was responsible for saving 6,500 Allied soldiers and Jews. Due to his ability to evade the traps set by the Gestapo, Monsignor O'Flaherty earned the nickname "the Scarlet Pimpernel of the Vatican".

 

And he was only one of hundreds of priests doing their bit.

 

The Vatican had to keep its stance of Neutrality but that doesnt mean to say that others were not doing their bit to get rid of the Nazi,s.

 

I am a lapsed Catholic......

Maggyd

 

I would urge you to read Into That Darkness by Gitta Sereny who wrote about this subject matter in great depth and detail using previously unobtainable legal documents.

 

It makes uncomfortable reading for ANY Roman Catholic who will undoubtedly still prefer to remain in denial.

 

[duffers]

maggyd - 2010-09-20 10:08 PM

 

Tony Jones - 2010-09-16 1:00 PM

 

It won't surprise you that I'm not by any means an atheist, but I do agree about this visit. The idea of calling it a "State Visit" (hence taxpayer-funded) is based on the total fiction that the Vatican is a COUNTRY, when of course it's really only one bit of a city.

 

Its only "citizens" are employees of the church, and everything that matters about this visit is to do with the Roman Catholic faith, not the supposed "country" of which he's the "head of state."

 

It's as if General Motors called their little bit of Detroit an "independent state," when in fact it's just the Head Office of a multinational organisation!

 

And how much attention would a REAL State Visit from the president of (say) Luxembourg attract - which has a much bigger population and a proper governmental structure!

 

The Pope's only significance is as a religious figure, and this visit (like that of his predecessor) should be described that way, not as a "State" one.

 

 

I did expect as a minister Tony that you might have said something a little less inflammatory and more positive as to the good that can come from a visit from any Religious order! the Queen gave the invitation to the Pope and weather you agree it was a state visit or not , you would remember as Tax payers the 6million Catholics of this Country never have the chance to say weather we agree to all the money that is spent on and publicity that the Church of England get! and it is a once in some people,s lifetime. And as a matter of fact I Dont! the fact that a lot of people have dropped away is not in my opinion a good thing I much prefer the days when as children we were made to go to Church and Sunday School :-S others will disagree I know ! but the Children then had a lot more respect than they do to-day. :-D O.K. rant over Im just a Grumpy old Women who would prefer for people to use their objections to the BAD things that are happening and not knock the good.

 

 

 

didn't think Tony's post was inflammatory, he's simply expressing an opinion

which he is entitled to do

which you disagree with

which you are entitled to do

 

 

can't beat religion - in any of its many guises - for creating a rumpus, *-)

[Guest Tracker]

duffers - 2010-09-21 9:40 AM

 

didn't think Tony's post was inflammatory, he's simply expressing an opinion

which he is entitled to do

which you disagree with

which you are entitled to do

 

 

can't beat religion - in any of its many guises - for creating a rumpus, *-)

 

 

Absolutely right!

[maggyd]

O.K. especially for the R.C. knockers amongst you have a look at this link

 

http://www.churchontheball.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=54&Itemid=16

[duffers]

methinks a touch of paranoia,

 

just because someone disagrees with you

you should not be so quick to take offence

as far as I can see none has been intended

 

but we are all entitled to our opinion - some may be more informed than others - while some is a knee jerk reaction -

some may be as a result of considered study of and from many sources

others may be as a result of indoctrination / manipulation

 

it's still an opinion - we do not yet have the thought police

[Guest Tracker]

Let it be clear that I am not knocking the Catholic church Maggy.

 

I have no time for any form of religion so I show no favouritisms!

 

Except that I quite like Capitalism!