Geoff Cole Posted September 19, 2010 Share Posted September 19, 2010 HI, We have been out from our base in SW France for about 3 weeks up in the Jura mountains over into switzerland and Germany got back yesterday, covering abot 1800mls, superb trip other than than the the engine playing up. About 2 weeks into the trip the engine started running rough and belching out clouds of black smoke we diverted to the Fiat dealer near Clermont Ferrand,I thought that as it was running rich the Airflow meter or injectors may have been playing up. They were very helpful pluged into the computer and after about 40 min said the EGR valve needed replacing, this they did the next day at a cost of around £300. The mechanic said that the system was very sooted up and it would take a couple of days to clear. I was not convinced as to what had causing the soot to build up in the first place, but had no choice but to take his advice. After 500mls it is still pouring out black smoke, the exhaust is thick with soot, as is the side of the camper. We are due to return to the IOM in Nov and need to sort the problem out. The engine is the 2.2 100hp maybe Nick with his indepth knowledge can advise. Regards G Cole Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webbocj Posted September 19, 2010 Share Posted September 19, 2010 Hi Geoff. Had a very similar problem with our 2.3 in 2007., travelling thro' France we had an engine display warning and also lack of power, we also had trouble first thing in the mornings getting enough power to pull away. Local FIAT dealer ordered and fitted "valve" , OK!!!! Following morning, same problem, but previously when warm things seemed to be OK. However on this occasion the small amount of black smoke got worse to the point that apart from loosing power we where also throwing out lumps of black soot. It stopped, ie engine failure and we were towed back to the original garage. (a part of the FIAT system that did work) After the "perscribed wait" we were told things were OK. A finger pointed to the problem being the valve behind the metal bracket underneath the joint in the scuttle (where the water drips onto) This was covered about a week ago by the said "Nick" in the usual great detail. At the moment we at Luz St Sauveur and no I'm not going to bike up the Col du Tourmalet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 Hi Geoff, Black soot is not a symptom of a failed EGR valve in the 2.3 X250 so I would be surprised if it is on a 2.2 engine. EGR and solenoid faults tend to be accompanied by grey or white smoke along with a very rough running engine. We do not run any of the 2.2's so I cannot give specific advice. However; In our experience generally black soot has been caused by a damaged turbo pipe or blocked breather. The first thing I would do is remove the oil filler cap and give it a good clean with carburettor cleaner otherwise it needs to go to a Diesel injection specialist who will know far more about these things than a Fiat dealer or myself. Choose a Bosch centre near to you. You will get the answers that you need. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwaviation Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 My injector rail became detached on the A14. symptoms were rough running, clouds of black smoke and gradual loss of power leading to a total stop and engine fail - Under the bonnet the engine stank of diesel. I suspect something is cracked or has come adrift on the top of your engine (My van is a Peugeot though...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Cole Posted September 20, 2010 Author Share Posted September 20, 2010 Thank you all for your help, just in case some furry creature had hitched a lift inside the air intake I have removed the air filter and the aiflow sensor cleaned all connections and checked airflow all seems ok. Taking up Nicks suggestion I have contacted the AA and spoken to a technician about the problem he agreed with Nick that the EGR valve was not the source of the problem and is in the process of finding and auto electrician in the area that can run dianostics.The engine gives the appearance of running with the choke out and is pouring out soot which would seem to suggest an airflow problem. I will let you know how I get on as it may help some one else with this problem, I just hope it is not going to be to costly,as the warrenty has now expired. regards Geoff cole Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 Damn shame the dealer is so far away because in an ideal world you would be demanding a refund because he got it totally wrong! Got you over a barrel, don't they? The AA are wrong, you need a Bosch Diesel centre, not an electrician, and the diagnostic kit is not really going to help with this. You need an expert who can plug his kit in between sensors and injectors and sniff out the cause. They can substitute the correct values at suspected points and check the results in real time. Chances are they will have seen this before anyway but it will be outside the scope of most auto electricians. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Cole Posted September 20, 2010 Author Share Posted September 20, 2010 Thanks Niick, sods law it seems as they could not find out what was wrong they opted for the easy option the EGR valve. I am also concerned that the turbo could also be damaged by the soot going through it. The AA tech is going to phone garages in the area to find out the best place to carry out the Bosch diagnostics on diesels, my french is not good enough to convey the problems so the AA will do this. Thanksfor your help I will let you know how I get on. Geoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebishbus Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 Hi Just a thought, is the turbo still turning ? Try squeezing the hose from the turbo,whilst someone revs the engine, if it is working you should feel the hose expand. Brian B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Cole Posted September 20, 2010 Author Share Posted September 20, 2010 Turbo is working fine and other than pouring out smoke and soot it is running ok no warning lights on. I still think its somthing to do with the airflow to the engine problem is its all ECU controlled so with the magic box of tricks there is little to do other than check the basics.I could really do without the problem this far away from home, and the expense! the other problem is that sometimes it misses a beat, the rev ,temp gage and oddmeter all stop working then all comes on again after a few minuets, this has been investigated but to no avail, hopefully I will get it sorted soon, the AA have been most helpfull thanks to safeguard insurance. Geoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Cole Posted September 21, 2010 Author Share Posted September 21, 2010 AA have booked the camper into a Bosch dianostics centre tommorrow and have explained the problem to them hopefully this will sort problem out I will post results. Geoff Cole Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webbocj Posted September 23, 2010 Share Posted September 23, 2010 hi again. having spent three hard days driving in/over the French Pyrenees, came down into Spain and had an ovenightr stop, well deserved. This morning on start up i noticed the engine block warning light stayed on!!! From hear the road down the n 230 was down or flat. No lack of power, no smoke-black or grey, not a problem. Stopped for bite at lunchtime, looked under the bonnet, pressed and touched and when restarted, Walla! OK. early doors yet but perhaps our visit to Lourdes was worthwhile. chris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted September 23, 2010 Share Posted September 23, 2010 Visits to Leicester can have similar healing effects. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred grant Posted September 23, 2010 Share Posted September 23, 2010 why not lourde it down to cornwall my ansums and get yer air filter to take in sum of that pre winter dung wafting about. f Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy T Posted September 24, 2010 Share Posted September 24, 2010 Understand from Rockingham Cars, Corby, Northants, (Fiat dealer present at Malvern Show) that there is a service ECU remap, which contains a cleaning cycle for the EGR. They need vehicle chassis number to check to see if update applies to the vehicle. Local Fiat dealers seem to know nothing of this. So will be travelling to Corby to get mine done. (100hp 5 speed) Andy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Cole Posted September 24, 2010 Author Share Posted September 24, 2010 HI, I Got the camper back this afternoon,after being at the garage for a couple of days, they could not find any problem with the electronics other than the EGR valve progam. The problem was found to be bad fuel and the EGR vale not correctly programmed. They drained the fuel tank (fortunately it was less than 1/4 full and cleaned it out, repaced fuel filters, reprogrammed the ECU, then took it for a 20k drive. I have driven it back from Agen about 40k and it is running a lot better and other than smoking a bit when I put my foot down it appears to be OK. The AA through safegaurd have been great they have done all the comunication between the garage and myself. The AA technician said that bad fuel from French and Italian supermarkets is a common problem in the summer as they do not clean out the tanks on a regular basis and if you are unlucky enough to get the dregs from the bottom then there can be problems. Whether or not I needed the EGR valve I will never know, but it has been a very expensive exercise, if the problem was indeed dirty fuel. I am planning a run to the med next week so I will find out then if the problem has been fixed, the other problem is where to get fuel if the supermarket fuel is doggy. It could just be bad luck as I have never had a problem with supermarket fuel up to now. Many thanks for all the help and advice. Regards Geoff Cole Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rapidoman Posted September 25, 2010 Share Posted September 25, 2010 just back from france down west coast across to carcassonne down to med and back thro the lot, filled up with elf and shell got 28 mph. never use cheap /supermarket fuel, last motorhome we had we put cheap fuel in result loss of power lower mpg and black soot everywhere, had to have injectors changed and tank cleaned more was spent on that than saved on fuel.lesson learnt you get what you pay for (!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted September 25, 2010 Share Posted September 25, 2010 interesting thread...I have had the coachbuilt 3.5 years, only 15000 miles mind you, but often use supermarkets for fuel without a blink. do you think this is another Fiat issue? (my van is a Ford) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rapidoman Posted September 25, 2010 Share Posted September 25, 2010 hi judge not sure on that one but the one we had problems with was the 2.8l not the current version. someone once said to me that the cheaper fuels always have something missing maybe in the case of french fuel perhaps the preservative or cleaning agent is not as good. oddly we also had trouble with french supermarket petrol, car would lose power and cough ended up having to use 98 instead of 95 (!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webbocj Posted September 25, 2010 Share Posted September 25, 2010 Interesting!! Filled up at Leclercs before we left Lourdes. chris ps free plug in at Lourdes nick otherwise i'm all for the Leicester option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webbocj Posted October 15, 2010 Share Posted October 15, 2010 Last update, back home a couple of days ago. For the next couple of weeks or so whilst in Spain I put only the cheapest deisel in with no further problems. However just as we were looking for a place to fill up in Cleremont Ferrand the engine stuttered and the light was back on! Met a Dutch guy on the next site at Riom and when I explained my problem he straight away said not to worry, his also did it. He put it down to poor fuel and long hard days driving? Following morning it had gone off. On the drive up to Calais it came on again and then went off. Filled up before leaving France and once on the M1 shot up to Yorkshire with no further problems!!! Maybe it's in the mind but when the lights on the performance seems to be affected slightly. chris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted October 18, 2010 Share Posted October 18, 2010 My two pennoth is that it is likely to have more to do with the volumes pumped at the service station used, than with whether the service station is an independent, a supermarket, or a major oil company. High volumes mean a continual supply of clean fuel from the supplier, and most of France buys its diesel etc from supermarkets, so they'd all be spluttering along if supermarket fuel, per se, were the problem. Besides, how many sources of diesel are there? It all has to come from someone's oil well and cracker, and surely most oil/petrol production is in the hands of the big oil companies. The name on the tin doesn't necessarily mean the contents are different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flicka Posted October 19, 2010 Share Posted October 19, 2010 Sorry Brian, but there are differences in Diesel from the different sources. Yes, all the Refineries have to produce to a common Standard (BS EN 590 & 14214 for Europe - see below) but each of the Major Oil Companies spend massive amounts developing their own specific Additives, (Lubricity, CFPP, etc..) Although there are product sharing schemes, this is based on "standard" product before their own additives are injected, which are generally injected at point of despatch from the Oil Terminals. Each Major Oil Company will have their own specific loading bays where their own additive is injected. Similarly the Supermarkets have their own allocated loading bay, but would not have access to the Brand Additives. "There are three existing specification standards for diesel & Biodiesel fuels (EN590, DIN 51606 & EN14214). EN590 (actually EN590:2000) describes the physical properties that all diesel fuel must meet if it is to be sold in the EU, Czech Republic, Iceland, Norway or Switzerland. It allows the blending of up to 5% Biodiesel with 'normal' DERV - a 95/5 mix. In some countries such as France, all diesel sold routinely contains this 95/5 mix. DIN 51606 is a German standard for Biodiesel, is considered to be the highest standard currently existing, and is regarded by almost all vehicle manufacturers as evidence of compliance with the strictest standards for diesel fuels. The vast majority of Biodiesel produced commercially meets or exceeds this standard. EN14214 EN14214 is the standard for biodiesel now having recently been finalized by the European Standards organisation CEN. It is broadly based on DIN 51606." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted October 20, 2010 Share Posted October 20, 2010 Just read in this months MMM about another smoking Fiat and the botched repairs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Leake Posted October 21, 2010 Share Posted October 21, 2010 We use fuel from the nearest available source including very often filling up at supermarkets whilst boss is replenishing supplies. I do however always use Millers Diesel Super Sport additive and have never had any smoking problems with cars or motor homes and have always passed MOT smoke test with flying colours. It does not work out expensive so may be worth a try. I have always used it from new so in your case it may be worth using a tank full of fuel dosed with suitable cleaner first. Just out of interest the mechanic who maintains our motorhome always comments on how smooth and responsive our engine is. I also use a fully synthetic oil as well which before the pound plunged we used to buy cheap in France. Given the small milage we do between anual services it's probably a waste of money but engine seems to like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyishuk Posted October 21, 2010 Share Posted October 21, 2010 In France we seemed to smell from other vehicles the good old "Chippie" smell (or is it "Frites ?") Some vehicles seemed quite modern and makes me think that they were not the sort of car to go down the DIY diesel route. It passed a thought in my mind that a local entrepenuer was selling home spun diesel to his village garage at the midnight hour ! Rgds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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