Optare Posted September 21, 2010 Share Posted September 21, 2010 Hi All I have had my first motorhome a 2006 Autocruise Starlet 11 (Starburst) for nearly two months now with a couple of trips in the book and very happy with it, dont think we could have chose a nicer van (without robbing a bank) however however over the couple of months i have read of a lot of people suffering from heat exchangers being destroyed by damage by frost I read Trackys comments on a ealier post re anti freeze system so as mine is the same and has an antifreeze tank am I reading it correctly in assuming I have no need to drain the system at all, for so many others having problems is there a version that does not have an antifreezed system. I had thought of of buying one of the small tubular heaters to run in the the van during the winter to help with stopping any freezing or dampness, apart from the need to have hook up on all the time does anyone use use them. Great Forum cannot believe how much info you can learn from it thanks for all the posts and comments whatever the subject MTIA Derek :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted September 21, 2010 Share Posted September 21, 2010 I believe some of these heaters include a heat-exchanger linked into the motorhome's engine-coolant system. The heat-exchanger allows fresh water within the Combitronic's water reservoir to be heated while the motorhome is being driven and (assuming the option is present) also permits the heater to warm up a cold motor. If that's correct, then there should be no need during cold weather to drain the liquid within the heater's heat-exchanger circuit as that liquid is the same water + anti-freeze mixure as in the vehicle motor's own coolant system. However, to avoid possible frost-damage, you'd definitely need to ensure that any FRESH water within the heater is drained down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted September 21, 2010 Share Posted September 21, 2010 Our Starlet II has the combitronic and ours is not linked to the vehicle cooling system in any way - others may be - but ours isn't. The water in the heat exchanger that is directly heated by the diesel burner and which imparts it's heat to the on board tank and tap water via said heat exchanger does contain anti freeze, and it is this anti freeze that needs to be maintained at a suitable concentration for the coldest temperatures that the van is likely to encounter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harvey Posted September 21, 2010 Share Posted September 21, 2010 Derek, To help you understand the system better, have a look here:-- http://www.eberspacher.com/products/combitronic/ Open the PDF 'Brochure' and there is a schematic of a typical system. I don't know the details of the specific system on you Starlet but not all 'Combitronics' are the same, however as mentioned, you do not need to drain the 'coolant' from the header tank as this is an antifreeze mix ( more on that later ) but the water in the hot tank and your fresh water tank should be drained in winter although if your tanks are inboard you may not need to if the inside temperature is kept up. The Combitronic 'Modular' system has the hot tank inboard, usually under a seat I think. My Starblazer has a 'Compact' Combitronic, where *everything* except the coolant header tank is underneath the 'van. On the subject of the 'Antifreeze Coolant'. I had a problem with my Eber failing to start. After an Eberspacher agent failed to fix it, I decided to investigate. I decided that it was probably the Eberspacher pump failing. When I removed the Eber unit and stripped it I did find that the pump was very stiff and this was fixed by cleaning. I also found that the 'dirt' was probably due to a defective antifreeze. There was much evidence that it had crystalised in the waterways near to the pump. After cleaning and re-assembly, I replaced the 'coolant' with an appropriate mix of good quality antifreeze. My Starblazer is also a 2006 model. I am not intending to worry you unduly but if you are mechanically competent it may be a good idea to replace the 'coolant' mix. It is probably a good idea to do so periodically anyway as is recommended for your engine coolant. Harvey p.s I don't think that any of the Autocruises had their Eberspacher systems linked to the engine cooling system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optare Posted October 7, 2010 Author Share Posted October 7, 2010 Sorry for the delay in thanking all for the replies bit of a hicup with the computer and being away. As it appears I have the same system as trackers do you drain your system down ? As I have got a small convector heater (Thanks Alf) to put in presume this should be enough to stop freezing of inboard tanks I have just had couple of nights away and used the ECO mode which I found ideal but presume the wear and tear factor would come into the reckoning to use this all over winter Also one other thing Tracker may help me with after reading the forum on stolen CATS where is this on our model as if it is under the Alko chassis would imagine this should not be too much of an issue. Thanks to all Derek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted October 8, 2010 Share Posted October 8, 2010 Optare, We too have just bought a Starlet 2(starburst) 2005,(last Saturday) have yet to go away in it , but spent the night at the dealers checking everything before we drove it home, thought the Eberspacher heating was great, had electric hook-up so used the 'Eco' setting, and found it kept the van at a perfect temperature all night. My reading of the 'Combitronic' manual says that if you put it onto 'Frostguard' the * symbol on the panel, it keeps the van at 15 degrees and runs the water heater once every hour, all using the mains (it only works when 'hooked up') to stop anything freezing up, so, I will be using that. In my old van i kept an Oil filled radiator on through the winter on a low thermostat. for the same purpose. Great Van ! Ray ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harvey Posted October 8, 2010 Share Posted October 8, 2010 My opinion about draining the fresh water / hot water tank/s during winter. :- It is best to do so especially if not using 'van for long periods. If you get frozen tanks / pipes / taps it can be expensive. If your drain valve is easily accessible and works properly it is a quick and simple job. Yes, you can run the Eber. to heat the water but this too can be costly. If you want to heat the 'van interior just to prevent damp etc. then you can do this 'as and when required' without worrying about the water, if there is none. I found an error in some of the Combitronic literature about how the 'frost' setting operates. I contacted Eberspacher U.K. ( via one of their agents 'Espar' ) for clarification. I'll look it up if you like and post here. In addition to there being a 'Compact' and a 'Modular' 'Combitronic' there is also a 'Standard' and 'DeLuxe' control system. Which do you have on the Starlet? Harvey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted October 8, 2010 Share Posted October 8, 2010 Harvey, yes ,would appreciate the info about the 'frost' setting, Have no idea yet, what system I have, but it appears to have a Mains supply for both heating and hot water, as well as diesel of course, my understanding is that on 'Eco' mode is uses the Mains in preferance to diesel (1.5kw) but adds diesel usage if the temp. drops too low. It also has a remote operating panel. Still checking it out. Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted October 8, 2010 Share Posted October 8, 2010 Advice from an Eberspacher agent is to run the air heater at least once a month as they are designed for daily lorry use and don't like being left unused. This is based on him repairing many more motorhome units than lorry units proportionate to their numbers and is an unofficial observation. When I run my warm air heater it also heats the water - and it does get VERY hot. I don't know if it is meant to or not but it does and that is why I don't run the heater for too long when the hot water tank is drained down and also why I always keep the coolant tank filled with a suitable water and anti freeze mix. If I want to air or pre warm the van in winter I use the electric operation of it for this via a mains lead to the garage. Also drain down the cold water tank and leave the taps open to allow for the expansion of any remnats of water freezing. It can be a bugger to reprime the pump in spring sometimes but a good long suck on the cold tap with the tank full and the pump running usually primes it OK! Ray - if you need a good Eberspacher fixer - Shorts Electrical at Swansea have a guy called Richard who is very good. He is also in great demand so is not always instantly available! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optare Posted October 8, 2010 Author Share Posted October 8, 2010 Ray would imagine yours will be the same as mine which is the de-luxe control panel (this is a rectangular shaped panel unerneath the habitation control panel The standard panel is a square one) Derek ps If you have not got any instruction paperwork let me know your e-mail address and i will scan mine and send it to you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harvey Posted October 9, 2010 Share Posted October 9, 2010 The confusion about the frost setting is this: I have various documents including the info: in the Autocruise manual and there are two different statements about how / when the frost setting works. One says the heater will start at an internal motorhome temperature of 0C and turn off above 5C. The other says it will start at 5C internal temperature and reach an internal temperature of 15C. The answer that I received from Eberspacher ( via Espar ) is: Quote " The frost protection, which only operates with mains 230v hook up connected, will cut in at approx 0 degrees Celsius and will operate to approx 5 degrees Celsius. This temperature is sensed at the Combitronic panel. Please ensure that the battery charger is left on to ensure charging of the vehicle leisure battery, we need this on as the heating and hot water are 230v mains operated and the fan to blow heat to the interior is 12v. You must also ensure that the stored hot water tank (calorifier) has water in it as damage to the mains immersion element will result if the tank has no water in it. The immersion element is switched on for approx 5 minutes of operation within a 1 hour frost protect heating period. " End Quote By the way. When running 'heating only' on diesel, the water *will* get hot because the heating water circulates through the calorifier as well as the blown air heat exchanger. If you have the option of '230v mains room heating' and use this, the water won't get hot because there is a separate heating element in the heat exchanger for it and the immersion heater won't be on. hth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted October 10, 2010 Share Posted October 10, 2010 Thanks Harvey, I'll write the corrections in my manual. In everyone's opinion is the Combitronic a better system than a Truma gas system ? is it more or less reliable ? As Swift have gone back to Truma in 'Their' Autocruises or is it just for standardisation ? For me being able to run the system on the move is a revalation,(and with an outlet at the back of the Drivers seat !!) but of course the latest gas systems allow that too. But even with Diesel prices rising, Bottled gas will still be more expensive, but what about 'Pumped' LPG in a Gaslow system ? Just 'thinkin' is all, as the 'Die is cast' for an Eberspacher now anyway. Ray ;-) Ps Optare, yes mine is the de-luxe, same panel.Thanks for the offer,I have a manual. ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted October 10, 2010 Share Posted October 10, 2010 In my view Ray the Eberspacher is far superior to the Truma system in that you can have it on when on the move - not that we ever have - and that when abroad or on a long trip it saves gas and makes gas management that much easier with no real need for expensive refillables because a full Calor 6kg will power the fridge and cooking for us for around three weeks - more if you use hookups - in which case you can heat the van and water from said hookup. The real downsides are it's unpredictable reliability and its desire for lots of 12v power which is not a problem in a truck for which it was originally designed but can be an issue in a motorhome if it does not keep it's batteries fully charged. On all three of the vans that I have owned with it has given me trouble sometimes the unit itself and more often the lack of battery power - but only when it's bloomin cold and you really need it. This trouble is not made any better by the scarcity of agents and even greater scarcity of knowledgeable people regarding motorhome applications within these service agents. When it's good it's very good and when it's bad I'd rather have a gas system and get a refillable bottle as my recollection of gas blown air and convector heating is it's absolute reliability - or is that just my experience? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harvey Posted October 11, 2010 Share Posted October 11, 2010 My previous 'van, a panel van conversion had a separate gas / electric water heater ( Atwood ) and a Carver blown air heater. I would prefer a similar system to that, rather then the Eber. The Eber. , well mine anyway, heats the water very quickly, five to ten minutes whereas the old Atwood would take 25 minutes and I have seen similar times in specs. for other gas systems. The Eber. is noisy, the exhaust with a window open and the wind wrong, is smelly: the Eber Hydronic unit has gone wrong and I stripped and repaired it myself after an Eber. agent failed to. I have also, like tracker, had failure to start when batteries a bit low: now have two batteries and seems to be better....... my Combitronic has 230v heating and hot water in addition to diesel ( not all Combitronics do ) and I would hate it if I didn't have the 230v option. My Autocruise is four years old and I have owned it for two years. My panel van conversion is from 1996: I bought it in 2003 and used it for nearly six years with never a problem with the Atwood or Carver. I have read of quite a few problems that people have had with Truma heaters of one sort. I think that my favourite system would be the Truma type which has a gas / mains convector heater which also has blown air heating and then have some sort of separate water boiler. Then you can have heating on all night with no noise from a blower fan, or high use of you 12v to run it.......... but I have an Eberspcher and love / hate it. :-D hth Harvey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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