Shared waster water issue with neighbour-HELP

[RogP]

Hope some one can give me some guidence on an issue we have with a neighbour (would go to CAB but they're closed and need to understand what my stance is as best as I can before said neighbour is confronted)

 

The problem.

 

A neighbour had cause to call out a plumber to unblock the shared private sewer service to a collective of 5 properties - 2 weeks ago (on the Monday) - He spoke to my wife on that days to which she advised him we had insurance and if he would give the details to me would speak to insurers.

 

NO further contact that week till the Friday at 13:00 when neighbour came to house and said sewer had blocked again , he had called his plumber again who would come out the next day (last Saturday) unblock , and put a camera down the sewer to see whats going on. Costs now gone from initially £80 to a further £120 (total now £200).

 

I said no problem give me copies of all your invoices and plumbers report and my insurer will deal with it.

 

Yesterday Environmental Health service notice to all 5 properties giving 48 hours to resolve blockage otherwise they would default sort and bill each proprty.

 

 

Let me state now I have NO problem with the legal responsibility of the Shared Private Sewer (for those not familier I suggest go to you local water comapanys website and learn of your legal responsibilites).

 

What I have a problem with is neighbour seemingly following my conversation rang EH who visited at 16:00hrs that Friday , 3 hours after our conversation.

 

As yet I have not had one copy of his costs so I could resolve (nor have any of the other neighbours). So he's hacked us all off as we all now have an enforcement notice against us.

 

So what I wanted to know was , 3 of us have cover for our individual properties for maintenance and repair costs for the collective across the properties. Can we in turn seek , should we wish , each of the properties to cover their 15th share of that insurance premium? as he can legally seek our 1/5th share of his cash expense?

 

Also do we have any restrospective claim in a similar was - last year when we were uninsured we had to pay to have the sewer unblocked in a similar way, so is there a time limit for such claims?

 

Sorry for the rant , the guy has really stabbed us in the back for no reason and 2 of the affected parties are elderly (one being 85 and recovering from cancer) and they are both very stressed by this and a little scared so I'm trying my best to look after this for them as well so non of all get wrong blackened by this episode.

 

As said we now have this enforcement notice which in the future we believe will constitue an neighbour dispute and as such would we would be required to mention if we are selling the house.

 

Any good advice welcome.

[nowtelse2do]

RogP. I'v pm'd you.

Dave

[RogP]

Many Thanks Dave , I'll head that way and see where I get.

 

I probably know the answer already , I'm just steaming that I feel I've been left doubly out of pocket i.e Pay my insurance and now him for his out lay.

 

If he'd not got the EH involved it would have cost us all about £30 leaving him only £30 out of pocket and no one has said they wouldn't pay.

 

Now it will cost everyone about £60 to the council , including him so he'll now be £140 out of pocket as there's no way I'll pay him now- he can take me to small claims court.

 

Also if there is a break in the pipes that need repairing 3 (if not 4) of us are insured and he's not so he'll then have to pay that out - that could be several hundred pounds or into into the thousands bracket as he reckons it under the main road where this blockage is happening.

 

The annoying thing is this sort of started because someone has been flushing baby wipes down the toilet and it would seem they have been getting stuck, he's up to now used his own rods and been OK , however this latest issue he couldn't shift hence the plumber. Oddly the only property that has a baby is his , when his daughter brings her new born. She's there virtually every day for several hours and bizarly this problem start within the last 6 months , the baby is about 9 months now.

 

draw you own conclusion.

 

Hey Ho!

 

Thanks for the speedy response checking it out now

[teflon2]

Just a thought but when I was plumbing the pipes became the resonsibilty of the water company when it was between the first private boundry and the main sewage pipe in the road if the road is not a private one. Worth a try? John (^)

[Brian Kirby]

I think you will need to check the deeds (or whatever document contains the actual conditions relating to the private sewer and it's use/repair obligations) very carefully.

What you describe seems on the face of it highly unsatisfactory, as it seems any resident connected to the private sewer can call in a drain cleaning/repair service at will, and then collect from everyone else.  It seems the blockages did not affect you and, from what you say, possibly did not affect any other of the connected dwellings.  Is it reasonable for one person to block his own drain, and then expect everyone else to pay for it to be un-blocked?  Is it reasonable to expect an insurance company to pay out on a mere say so?  Will they not require evidence of costs incurred?  Are you not entitled to require evidence that cost has been incurred by your neighbour, before having to contribute to his costs?  If he fails to provide such evidence, does he not forfeit his right to recover?

Have the blockages been within your neighbour's own boundary?  If so, I would wonder if the "private sewer" does not commence, as such, until the next property in sequence is connected.  That may mean he has no entitlement to reimbursement at all, because he may have merely blocked his own drain, not the sewer.

If you have a liability, the neighbour must surely have some responsibilities and obligations to demonstrate why/how he properly incurred the cost.  "Baby wipes" should not block a properly laid and maintained sewer.  If the sewer was badly laid, or has been damaged, possibly by tree roots, building work, subsidence or heave, that would be a different matter.  If unsuitable material is being introduced into the sewer, then the person doing so should be liable for all costs that follow.  These circumstances should be all be covered in the legal documentation, including rights of entry to carry out emergency repairs etc.

[oldlowie]

Hi Roger - first of all talk to your Sewerage Services provider, ie the Water Company covering your area (Thames Water?).

 

Don't shout at them, tell them your exact problem and ask for their help. If you get a good guy he will be able to advise you on your's and your neighbours' exact responsibility. This will help with subsequent insurance claims.

 

Trying to pin the blame on someone is a waste of time in these circumstances, even if your neighbour has stuffed the sewer-pipe full of Pampers >:-)

 

If the blockage has reached the main sewer, the Water Company may be able to jet it for you, and won't necessarily charge (but they probably will do.

 

Joint sewers are nightmare - best of luck!

[RogP]

many thanks for the replies ,

 

the private sewer does not become the responsibility of the water companys until at the earliest the end of 2011 (following a bill passed in 2008 apparently) link below probably explains better

 

(removed link at it was erroring - try the Severn Trent web site if you can instead)

 

 

 

We are responsible and I dont have issue if we are.

 

My gut feeling when this first started was he was trying it on , apparently he hasn't worked for ages , has just got a new job (he's a plasterer) and claims he cant afford it.

 

He's got in this plumber who's told him about the shared responsibility so he's then come a knocking for our share. (As said 2 neighbours are elderly one 85 and not in good health the other in her late 60s recently widowed and coming to terms with now having to deal with things like this her hubby used to do).

 

He's then knocked my door and I've said need some copies of the receipt and report and he's then panicked got himself in a pickle and now its gone too far.I think he was expecting us all to just roll over and have our walletts at the ready with cripsy tenners.

 

Anyway my saying is dont get angry get even , and I usually do.

 

Lets see what Monday brings when the EH inspector comes out as I'm going to be present for that inspection.

 

I also now think there's a possibility my and my direct neighbours house dont connect into this run (we live on a hill and there's quite a drop between the houses).

[nightrider]

As a plumber of many years standing I have cleared many a blocked drain, you say you live in one of five houses sharing the main drain, do you live on a terrace of houses? where is the main drain located? I'd like to know more about the plumber who you say used a camera to check for a damaged pipe.

[RogP]

Hi Malcolm

 

No we dont live in terraced houses.

 

We live in a row of 5 houses that comprise of 2 sets of semi's and one detached. All were built at the same time by a single developer on what was originally woodland to a private estate and originally fronted to the main road we live. (actually where our houses are was originally the driveway through the woodland to the manor house that is in the grounds behind our house)

 

 

The houses were built in 1959 and as such we know that the private sewers for these houses only serves these houses and no other.

 

The private sewer runs at the back of the houses and if taking the detached as house 1 we would be no 5.

 

House 1 and 5 are the ends of the relevant run of pipes and the exit for this run into the main public sewer is from house 2 (whom we have the issue with).

 

We live on a hill with our house (no5) being the highest and no 1 being the lowest.

 

I was told by the neighbour of No2 he had arranged for his plumber to come back out supposedly last Saturday to unblock again and he would then put a camera down the run to the public sewer to investigate what might be the cause. I was told by the neighbour that when the plumber originally unblocked (two weeks ago) he estimated the blockage to be about 13m from the manhole which roughly would be the public footpath or even into the main road.

 

However the plumber did not come out on the saturday as I was led to believe , instead my neighbour opted to turn to the Environmental Health and thus the problem has gone pear shaped.

 

[Brian Kirby]

Where the blockage was when cleared may not be much help.  Depending on the nature of the blockage, it is quite possible the weight of the backed up contents of the pipe will have gradually shifted the blockage downstream.

I assume your neighbour is in a bit of a panic because when the sewer blocks it backs up and floods out through the chamber in his (presumably) garden or drive.  Understandable, I think.

Do you know if it has been rodded from both ends?  It is possible to achieve a temporary flow by shifting the cause of the blockage (say a plastic flower pot) enough to allow other material past (possibly those baby wipes) but not to clear it fully, so that more baby wipes (for example) merely get caught and re-block the flow.  It may be almost any fibrous material that is causing the problem, including things such as "J" cloths, incontinence pads, or surgical dressings so, unless you know exactly what your respective neighbours are chucking down the toilet (unlikely!), it would be difficult to identify the culprit with certainty.

However, if the blockage is beyond the line of the back edge of the pavement, or the designated boundary of your neighbour's property (i.e in the street), might the responsibility fall to the water authority?  It would then seem to be in public, rather than private, property. 

If there were trees, and they have now gone, it is possible that the ground has "heaved" which, unless the drain was laid to be flexible, may have resulted in a fracture, leading to a raised edge inside, that would catch passing material, even if it is someone being a bit heavy on the toilet paper.

It should be possible, with upper and lower manhole covers raised and by using a mirror on a stick (standard drain clearer's issue!) to sight along the bore of the drain to see if it deviates badly from its line.  If that is inconclusive, or the end can't be seen, CCTV will be the most revealing form of inspection.  See what EH turn up with.

[nightrider]

Rogp,

Its difficult to advise without seeing the job, most blocked drains clear with a vigorous rodding using a plunger on the end of the rods.

Its handy if you have a couple of inspection chambers on the line you can rod from both ends, it may be that you can use a "worm" attachment on the rods to bore your way through any obstruction.

Was your neighbours drain blocked "before" going into the main drain? It may be a good idea to consult a drainage man who has a jetter, expense comes in if you have to start digging.

[catinou]

Hi Roger,

You have my sympathy! I really hope you are sorted or getting sorted now? Our cold water tap seemed to "explode" last Thursday with rusty water and Southern Water advised when I called them that they had shut the water due to a burst (about 3 miles away! :-S ) and it would affect us - only later did we find it was only us in our road *-)

 

The water was back on that evening but hubbie took 1.5 hours to get cold water taps to run clear and loos to flush properly. Later that evening we found the dishwasher would not fill and the hot water was non existent! S Water agreed to pay the bills to get boiler sorted and gave us a claims reference to get it cleared.......as we were going to France on Friday afternoon the appointments for B Gas (a.m.) and Dynorod plumbing (part of B Gas) (p.m.) were made for Monday - after 2.5 hours and repeated cleaning of the filter in the boiler we were left with the boiler and heating system drained and an "at risk" notice. Dynorod spent 3.5 hours clearing debris and what turned out to be resin from the burst water softener tank (? due to the immense pressure at the beginning) from all appliance filters and water pipes.

 

All we need now is for B Gas to come and redo the boiler (the original softener has been by-passed by Dynorod) so we can have some heat and hot water back. (? Maybe Thursday?) Oh, and a new softener!....I suppose things could have been worse and we do have the motorhome shower to use in the meantime.. :-)

[oldlowie]

catinou - 2010-10-13 12:08 PM

 

The water was back on that evening but hubbie took 1.5 hours to get cold water taps to run clear and loos to flush properly. Later that evening we found the dishwasher would not fill and the hot water was non existent! S Water agreed to pay the bills to get boiler sorted and gave us a claims reference to get it cleared.

 

Hi catinou, it sounds like you were the victim of 'back-siphonage'. I am guessing that you live in an elevated location relative to the main that burst. Water mains are pressurised to a similar state as a motorhome tyre (i.e around 3bar), depending on the local terrain. What happens is that when the main is shut down, all the water in your pipes rushes back to the burst site. It is made worse if you open a tap or flush a loo, with the worst case scenario being to draw off all your hot water.

 

When the main is recharged following a repair, the water forces all the air in the main, your service and your internal pipes up to your draw-off points - i.e. taps and ballvalves. When you open a tap the pressurised air is released and mayhem can ensue for quite some time, as you found out 8-)

 

This back-siphonage can also dislodge all kinds of c**p from the inside of the pipes and services, causing a few extra problems along the way... *-)

[catinou]

oldlowie - 2010-10-13 7:04 PM

 

catinou - 2010-10-13 12:08 PM

 

The water was back on that evening but hubbie took 1.5 hours to get cold water taps to run clear and loos to flush properly. Later that evening we found the dishwasher would not fill and the hot water was non existent! S Water agreed to pay the bills to get boiler sorted and gave us a claims reference to get it cleared.

 

Hi catinou, it sounds like you were the victim of 'back-siphonage'. I am guessing that you live in an elevated location relative to the main that burst. Water mains are pressurised to a similar state as a motorhome tyre (i.e around 3bar), depending on the local terrain. What happens is that when the main is shut down, all the water in your pipes rushes back to the burst site. It is made worse if you open a tap or flush a loo, with the worst case scenario being to draw off all your hot water.

 

When the main is recharged following a repair, the water forces all the air in the main, your service and your internal pipes up to your draw-off points - i.e. taps and ballvalves. When you open a tap the pressurised air is released and mayhem can ensue for quite some time, as you found out 8-)

 

This back-siphonage can also dislodge all kinds of c**p from the inside of the pipes and services, causing a few extra problems along the way... *-)

 

Thanks Anthony - that explains it so clearly!! Yes, we do live on a hill and the burst was at sea level - thank you for the information, we like to know why these things happen... On a brighter note, no more rubbish from cold taps and B Gas coming out this afternoon to deal with the boiler and heating etc. :-)

[RogP]

thanks for all the replies , its somewhat sorted in one sense. Environmental Health inspected on Monday and power flushed the sewer just waiting for the bill from them now.

 

Dont know the outcome of this and at the moment dont really care anymore. My wife as a result of this so called neighbours actions has got very stressed and this has in turned triggered her into a relapse so I'm just trying to look after her needs now.

 

None of the neighbours are now talking to 'matey' and all because he was too stupid to provide copies of his invoices.

 

He's now caused 2 people to become ill over this , we all now have a larger bill to pay , and it now looks as if we will have to cancel our half term week away , which is also my wifes 40th birthday treat. And its looking like her surprise party is going to have to be cancelled as well so thats another 50 people that will be affected by this.

 

Selfish or stupid , I'm not sure probably both. But a simple thing has gone totally wrong and caused untold upset.

 

I'm not a violent person but I could seriously smack the guy on the schnoz for they way he's handled this. I wont needless to say as he'd probably report me to the Feds and I dont want that on my name as well.

 

At least we've made up our minds about moving house next year now , anyone know of a cheap sun drenched islands for sale with NO neighbours!!