panel vans

[rolyk]

The original poster has obviously made his shortlist and is asking for help in making the final decision.

 

Choosing any motorhome is a very subjective and personal matter, otherwise we'd all be buying the same vehicle. None of the ones on the shortlist is what I would choose, simply because I prefer a rear lounge. However, I think that aftersales is an important element in buying a new van and, unless I lived in the north of England, I wouldn't choose a Wildax, simply because it would be difficult to return it to them for warranty work. I suspect that Globecar dealers are short on the ground and, unless one was within a relatively short distance from me, I would also exclude them. So, purely from an aftersales perspective, Autocruise would probably be my first choice. In our case, having Autosleepers factory less than an hour away did influence my choice of van.

 

However, if you could obtain any of the three vehicles relatively locally and were satisfied with the after sales service it then it is purely down to choosing the one that best fits your bill. If, like us, you like to lounge and watch tv, make sure that it is comfortable to do so. You also need to price up all three and include all the extras you need. I noticed that Globecar have quite an extensive list and even the electric step is an expensive £518 and an upgrade to a 120hp engine another £600. What seems a cheap vehicle can soon turn into quite an expensive one. Globecar also use a 3300kg base vehicle which will reduce your load carrying capacity.

 

Another important consideration, particularly it being a panel van, is the amount of storage space. An internal water tank is great in cold weather but they take up masses of volume that could otherwise be used as storage.

 

Spend some time looking at all three, on your own and without a salesman trying to influence you.

 

Anyway, good luck with your final choice and I'm sure you'll be more than happy with it.

 

Roly

[Mel B]

On a purely personal note, I'd rather have an in-board fresh water tank and have to have a roof box for extra kit if needed occasionally ... :-S

[Guest Peter James]

I looked at PVC conversions, couldn't see what I wanted, so bought a X250 L4 van and decided to do it myself. The biggest problem turned out to be insulation of all those awkward little areas in and around the doors etc. So I went to Brownhills to look at all the PVCs there to see how the professionals had insulated these areas. Obviously I can only look at the surface, not whats underneath, but from what I can see I am pretty sure they haven't. Just a thin cloth covering here and there. Plus the windows are the van manufacturers single glazed glass, instead of the caravan type double glazed plastic. So the insulation cannot be as good as a coachbuilt that is made of board with the insulation already built in throughout.

[grahamw]

JudgeMental - 2010-10-18 10:50 AM

when I looked at the Vantage I notice they also still use the grey carpet type lining? Now while this was acceptable material in cheap panel van conversions in the 80's, to still see this unhigenic and horrible material in a £40.000 plus camper is beyond me to be honest....

 

It's a good point you raise and its has largely fallen out of favour with volume van converters because of cost. The material is polypropelene based and is therefore rot proof and extremely stain resistant. Witness how easy it is clean a carpet of this material when wine has been spilt on it. The material also helps to insulate both in terms of heat and sound. It helps to keep next door neighbours sound out and your sound in. A lot of people will also comment on the virtues of this material when watching tv or listening to the radio as its acoustic qualities are very good and there is none of that brash sound you tend to get when sound is reflected from hard surfaces. Similar materials are universally used to cover the floor pan of cars and rooflinings largely for acoustic reasons.

 

The downside is that it needs a good skill level to fit it well and that has a cost overhead in terms of skills required and time taken. It's now really a material that's only viable for use by the small converter in van conversions that will cost more. Volume producers would largely avoid it because the level of skill input consistently required would add more problems to quality control and cost. It's easy to maintain quality in fixing a plastic panel that requires only four screws as not a lot can go wrong.

 

I think you have a good point when you talk about hygiene although you'd have to be a pretty messy person to cause problems in a large part of the van. Where your point is important is in the area of the sink and cooker and this bring us to points I raised in my first posting about attention to detail. As a wall material behind a sink or cooker its both unsuitable and dangerous in terms of hygiene and a fire hazard. Some converters will use a sink and cooker with lift up glass lids but the only solution is to place behind these items a easy wipe down fire resistant surface, personally I prefer both. I'm not a fan of ply lift up lids with the knock-on plastic edgings as you can always see a fine dirt line immediately inside the plastic edging and it has to be constantly cleaned.

 

At the end of the day it's down to personal taste and as they say "ya pays yer money and ya takes yer choice".

 

Graham

[Guest JudgeMental]

If you read the German mags when they test they measure the insulation. while not as thick as a coachbuilt they tend to be between 12mm and 22mm depending on manufacturer. On my recent visit to the Düsseldorf show, I was shown a cross section from a Globecar/Possl, it was a multi layered sandwich, bonded to metal sheel and interior board, and about 20mm. unfortunately I forgot to take a photo...

 

So you are wrong to say that most are not insulated properly, but as best as can be expected within the limitations of a PVC.

 

I will say no more regards grey carpet finish except to reiterate that I still think, it is cheap, nasty and unhigenic and laughable in this price bracket.

 

I have been to the NEC and it is a lamentable exhibition with little choice ...wheras a German show is massive, and you get a chance to see most that is available. Adria for instance only sell 2 or so models in the UK but In Germany they have 6 models........

 

 

[Guest Peter James]

JudgeMental - 2010-10-19 10:11 AM

 

If you read the German mags when they test they measure the insulation. while not as thick as a coachbuilt they tend to be between 12mm and 22mm depending on manufacturer. On my recent visit to the Düsseldorf show, I was shown a cross section from a Globecar/Possl, it was a multi layered sandwich, bonded to metal sheel and interior board, and about 20mm. unfortunately I forgot to take a photo...

 

So you are wrong to say that most are not insulated properly, but as best as can be expected within the limitations of a PVC.

 

 

I can see the large comparatively flat body panels, and perhaps the roof will have sheet insulation. (don't know how much air can circulate around it though) I was thinking more of the insulation in and around the doors, structural members etc. Particularly since the metal structural members will conduct the heat through from the inside to the outside.

[Guest JudgeMental]

when insulating a van you dont want to leave air pockets, as air equals mositure....That is why a closed cell material is better then the rock wool type stuff that some use. With early vans you could take a panel of, and you see that the insulation had fallen into a sodden pile.

 

Your pic does show the difficulty of insulating a panel van though, and why I prefer a major manufacturer with the economy's of scale, and the resources to do the job in a professional manner, with quality control etc..

[Guest Peter James]

JudgeMental - 2010-10-19 12:10 PM

 

when insulating a van you dont want to leave air pockets, as air equals mositure....That is why a closed cell material is better then the rock wool type stuff that some use. With early vans you could take a panel of, and you see that the insulation had fallen into a sodden pile.

 

Your pic does show the difficulty of insulating a panel van though, and why I prefer a major manufacturer with the economy's of scale, and the resources to do the job in a professional manner, with quality control etc..

 

Well, from what I can see the professionals seem to use a closed cell insulation board. But whatever they do with it, they can't fill in all those nooks and crannies, the corrugations in the panels, and the insides of the doors, to insulate the van as well as a coachbuilt, where all the outside panels are made of thick composite wallboard material, that has the insulation built into every external panel including the door. All those metal ribs must conduct heat straight through to the outside as well.

Bearing in mind vans are built down to a price, and the insulation is something the customer is never likely to see in any detail ........

[Guest JudgeMental]

if I was doing a home build which is unlikely, I would look into it first and find the best materials, but I would think once you have run your services I would maybe use a suitable expandable foam for all the awkward bits, ribs etc...and then insulation between and over the top, then bond it to the finished surface board....I would think you would really not be wanting to look at metal anywhere. I remember the earlier Adria vans had no insulating in the over cab cupboard bit, just bear metal roof and the condensation that goes with it:-S

 

The only easy part of a van to insulate properly is the floor *-)

[Guest Peter James]

JudgeMental - 2010-10-19 2:22 PM

 

if I was doing a home build which is unlikely, I would look into it first and find the best materials, but I would think once you have run your services I would maybe use a suitable expandable foam for all the awkward bits, ribs etc...and then insulation between and over the top, then bond it to the finished surface board....I would think you would really not be wanting to look at metal anywhere. I remember the earlier Adria vans had no insulating in the over cab cupboard bit, just bear metal roof and the condensation that goes with it:-S

 

The only easy part of a van to insulate properly is the floor *-)

 

Expanding foam is probably best, but I haven't heard of any pro converters that use it. As far as I can gather its just a matter of insulation board here and there to cover the largest voids. Anything more is unlikely to be economic, especially bearing in mind the customer will never see it.

 

I started off thinking a PVC would be best because the van manufacturer would build the bodywork better than the converter. But the more I have learned about it, the more I have thought if you want the full motorhome package, using secure parking like campsites all the time (so flimsy windows rooflights and doors is less of an issue), you would be better off with a coachbuilt.

[rolyk]

Many panel van converters use 3M Thinsulate, which they claim provides better insulation than down. here's the Wiki blurb -

 

Thinsulate fibers are about 15 micrometres in diameter, which is thinner than the polyester fibers normally used in insulation for clothing such as gloves or winter jackets. Advertising material for thinsulate suggests that thinsulate is more effective due to the increased density of fibers with decreased size of fibers compared with more traditional insulation.[1] Like most insulation materials, the gaps between fibers not only reduce heat flow, but also allow moisture to escape. The insulation properties are beneficial for retaining some of the heat produced by the body for comfortable warmth while the moisture produced, e.g. by sweating, is supposed to evaporate.

 

The manufacturer claims that, for a given thickness of material, Thinsulate provides 1 to 1.5 times the insulation of duck down, while being much less water-absorbent and much more resistant to crushing.

[Guest Peter James]

rolyk - 2010-10-19 3:00 PM

 

Many panel van converters use 3M Thinsulate, which they claim provides better insulation than down. here's the Wiki blurb -

 

Thinsulate fibers are about 15 micrometres in diameter, which is thinner than the polyester fibers normally used in insulation for clothing such as gloves or winter jackets. Advertising material for thinsulate suggests that thinsulate is more effective due to the increased density of fibers with decreased size of fibers compared with more traditional insulation.[1] Like most insulation materials, the gaps between fibers not only reduce heat flow, but also allow moisture to escape. The insulation properties are beneficial for retaining some of the heat produced by the body for comfortable warmth while the moisture produced, e.g. by sweating, is supposed to evaporate.

 

The manufacturer claims that, for a given thickness of material, Thinsulate provides 1 to 1.5 times the insulation of duck down, while being much less water-absorbent and much more resistant to crushing.

 

I don't doubt that the insulation board they use is pretty good. Just that there will be many parts that it does not reach. Look at all the fiddly hard to get to bits there is behind the bracing struts there is on my X250 van picture. Its even worse in and around the back doors, and large side door You don't get any of the back door insulation problems with a coachbuilt because there aren't any. The side door on a coachbuilt will be composite board.

 

If I was a van converter my main priority would be to avoid condensation traps that could bankrupt me with warranty claims. The way to do that would be to allow air circulation behind the internal boards. Not good for heat insulation though ...

[Mel B]

Thinking of how to insurlate the difficult bits and pieces ... what about approaching your local cavity wall insulation installer and seeing if they can blow some insulation in the gaps? Not sure if it would work, but ....

[tommydud]

insulation on possel / globecar floor 22 mm blue closed cell roof 40 mm walls 20 mm both flexi closed rubber foam cell stuck to inner pannels

adria pvc half this . the multi layer insulation quoted you will not find an R value for it .i bet the guy that started this to get advice on pvc as gone & bought a tent . pvc should not be compared with coach built

[flicka]

My understanding is that majority of Coachbuilts use Styrofoam, whch is a close cell material compared to polystyrene.

It is available in sheet form in varying thicknesses.

Dependingon the internal width required you could cutto size & fill between van ribs to make walls/ceiling level. Then line the whole area with full sheets. ?????

 

One source:-

http://new.panelsystems.co.uk/newsc/index.pl?c=StyrofoamCT

[terryW]

JudgeMental - 2010-10-19 10:11 AM

 

If you read the German mags when they test they measure the insulation. while not as thick as a coachbuilt they tend to be between 12mm and 22mm depending on manufacturer. On my recent visit to the Düsseldorf show, I was shown a cross section from a Globecar/Possl, it was a multi layered sandwich, bonded to metal sheel and interior board, and about 20mm. unfortunately I forgot to take a photo...

 

 

Just parted with a Globecar PVC and in my experience the insulation in both hot and cold conditions was better than our previous two coachbuilt vans and condensation on the windscreen was considerably less. But we don't boil spuds in the van!

 

[arthurhooper2]

Many thanks for all the interest. The technical discussion is a little beyond me - however - the Globecar we are interested in has the bathroom across the rear doors and we are concerned about the electrics there - are we being naive?

[colin]

I've only seen the developement model, and didn't take much notice as it was not a layout we where interested in, but I saw no reason to worry about electrics due to the rear shower layout.

[Guest Peter James]

terryW - 2010-10-20 2:22 PM

 

Just parted with a Globecar PVC and in my experience the insulation in both hot and cold conditions was better than our previous two coachbuilt vans and condensation on the windscreen was considerably less. But we don't boil spuds in the van!

 

I fail to see how better insulation of the van body could reduce the condensation on the windscreen.