"We are all in it together!"

[Guest JudgeMental]

"Dispatches" tonight focused on the Tory cabinets individual tax evasion antics.......with key figures up to their necks in creative tax avoidance. Then caught on film during the election and since, repeatedly pontificating that "We are all in it together!"

 

Yeah right! Some a lot more then others *-)

[Bulletguy]

JudgeMental - 2010-10-18 11:01 PM

 

"Dispatches" tonight focused on the Tory cabinets individual tax evasion antics.......with key figures up to their necks in creative tax avoidance.

 

By comparison benefit fraud by certain individuals tends to pale into insignificance. The sad part about it is whilst benefit fraud is theft, tax avoidance is all perfectly legal. Ironic isn't it but most if not all involved in tax avoidance are extremely wealthy people.

 

Names like Ashcroft and Green spring to mind, both of whom keep the Tory party machine well oiled.

 

 

[Guest JudgeMental]

If you didn't watch it try and see it on "catch up" it is a master piece in total hypocrisy....Our wonderful cabinet of 20 millionaires *-)

[nightrider]

The MP that I can't stand is that poison dwarf Hazel Blears, she lives in a very affluent area of Salford called Ellesmere Park, large houses, large gardens and tree lined avenues.

When she was caught bang to rights on the fiddle and then rubbed her jobless poverty stricken constituents noses in the dirt by waving that cheque for 13 grand to all the media was the limit for me.

Bent fiddling politicians should be hunted down and prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

Wefare benefit cheats do it to survive, bent MP's do it out of sheer greed.

[nightrider]

What gets me is, the banks and money men got us all in this mess, yet we, the little people have got to foot the bill in one way or another.

Think its about time the Brits went on the warpath like the French are doing now.

[Brian Kirby]

knight of the road - 2010-10-19 1:15 PM ................. Welfare benefit cheats do it to survive, bent MP's do it out of sheer greed.

Truth is Malcolm, not all benefits cheats do it to survive.  There is quite an industry in planned, calculated, benefits fraud, with people being paid to register fraudulently by gangs.  I've no idea of the figures, but I suspect that the organised gangs take rather more from the pot than those who stretch a point here and there.  The global sums spent on benefits are huge and, if the fraudulent element could be eliminated - irrespective of who/how is doing it, there would be more money for the deserving and less spent overall.  Easy to say I know, but getting the cheats out of the system is surely the best "win-win" of all?

[Porky]

knight of the road - 2010-10-19 1:18 PM

 

Think its about time the Brits went on the warpath like the French are doing now.

 

I think you need to stop and think before suggesting this. The French have no legislation which allows the police to prevent stikers from disrupting life for everyone else. Are you really happy to have any section of society who thinks they have a grievance (and who doesn't?) causing mayhem whenever they feel like it? There is a word for it, it is called anarchy.

On the point of tax avoidance I think most people, in priciple, would try and make sure they did not pay more tax than they need. The amounts involved, and the fact that it applies to other people, causes a somewhat emotive response.

Fraud, and any other illegal practice must be punished but do not confuse this with "playing within the rules"

 

Roy Fuller

[Guest JudgeMental]

Its not the accountancy that is the problem it is the audacious hypocrisy of standing up and saying "we are all in it together" when they are blatantly not in any way "in it" and that they intend to hammer everyone else, particularly the poor!*-)

[nightrider]

If the great British public are being squeezed till the pips squeak and are made to repay debts not of our making.

I see no reason why they can't make public protests in town and city centres, our problem is that we are too meek and mild, the French and the Italians make their anger known why not us?

[Guest JudgeMental]

Here is a link to program

 

 

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/dispatches/episode-guide/series-72/episode-1

[Porky]

JudgeMental - 2010-10-19 6:25 PM

 

Its not the accountancy that is the problem it is the audacious hypocrisy of standing up and saying "we are all in it together" when they are blatantly not in any way "in it" and that they intend to hammer everyone else, particularly the poor!*-)

 

I really do not understand the point you are making other than it sounds a bit like "sour grapes"

Any abuse of position is wrong and should be condemned, but enjoying the fruits of your position, and indeed maximising its benefit within the tax law, is not in itself wrong.

Having said that it was refreshing to listen to Bill Gates and his wife talking about their trust fund and the fact that they have given away billions of dollars already and intend to leave their fortune to charity. That does not mean however that they probably have tax advisors who advise them how to maximise their income WITHIN THE LAW.

 

Roy Fuller

[bob b]

I understand that three peers of the realm may be suspended for 3 months, from the House of Lords, for claiming expenses that they were not entitled to. Surely that is theft?

I can't see a commoner getting off that lightly having stolen thousands of pounds.

[Guest JudgeMental]

Watch the program, and I will be astoinished if you still feel the same........ I have been self employed all my life and pushed my accountants as far as I could, But that that is not the point. I am not in goverment, nor a hypocrite, avoiding national insurance and tax contributions by sheltering money in the BRITISH Virgin Islands? Telling everone that WE ARE ALL IN IT TOGETHER, when clearly they are not? They contribute little or nothing to the economy, while most of them are as rich as Midas as it is *-)

[Brian Kirby]

I  think the point Eddie is making, Roy, is not that it is illegal, but it is unprincipled: if you will, immoral, and it is sheer hypocrisy.  After all, who makes these laws, those who benefit from them, or those who are disadvantaged by them?

Wanting to see a level playing field is not, IMO, envy, it is common sense.  If the basis on which a society functions is that it gradually increases advantage to the privileged, while disadvantaging the less privileged, it will, sooner or later, have to be changed to become more even handed.

Our society has become, over several decades, more uneven, with the wealthy gradually acquiring an increasingly large slice of the national cake.  Just like the ever rising price of houses, that cannot continue, because such exponential growth would, unless checked, eventually leave a very small group of individuals, answerable to no-one but themselves, owning everything, and everyone, else.  It is not, IMO, a model for a healthy society, and unless rectified, will further undermine our already somewhat shaky version of democracy.  How that change will be brought about is the question.  Public protest, riots, and general disorder, or the application of a little common sense and some changes in taxation, to shift the balance to a more stable position.

[Guest pelmetman]

Brian Kirby - 2010-10-19 8:35 PM

  It is not, IMO, a model for a healthy society, and unless rectified, will further undermine our already somewhat shaky version of democracy.  How that change will be brought about is the question.  Public protest, riots, and general disorder, or the application of a little common sense and some changes in taxation, to shift the balance to a more stable position.

 

Wishful thinking Brian? I hope not,................. but based on the typical politician we produce in this country, I doubt anything will change >:-(

 

[Porky]

JudgeMental - 2010-10-19 8:23 PM

 

WE ARE ALL IN IT TOGETHER, when clearly they are not? They contribute little or nothing to the economy, while most of them are as rich as Midas as it is *-)

 

Yes Eddie that is true, and I can understand where the hypocrisy comes in if personal benefits are denied, but I was trying to make the point that it is the system which allows it which needs changing, as people (being what they are) will always seek to maximise their personal benefit. Also that it is the scale of benefit available which is probably the sore point not the priciple because I can not see any difference between taking advantage of offshore arrangements and any other tax avoidance.

So the answer is simple you will not change people but you can change the system.

 

Roy Fuller

[Porky]

Brian Kirby - 2010-10-19 8:35 PM

I  think the point Eddie is making, Roy, is not that it is illegal, but it is unprincipled: if you will, immoral, and it is sheer hypocrisy.  After all, who makes these laws, those who benefit from them, or those who are disadvantaged by them?

Wanting to see a level playing field is not, IMO, envy, it is common sense.  If the basis on which a society functions is that it gradually increases advantage to the privileged, while disadvantaging the less privileged, it will, sooner or later, have to be changed to become more even handed.

Our society has become, over several decades, more uneven, with the wealthy gradually acquiring an increasingly large slice of the national cake.  Just like the ever rising price of houses, that cannot continue, because such exponential growth would, unless checked, eventually leave a very small group of individuals, answerable to no-one but themselves, owning everything, and everyone, else.  It is not, IMO, a model for a healthy society, and unless rectified, will further undermine our already somewhat shaky version of democracy.  How that change will be brought about is the question.  Public protest, riots, and general disorder, or the application of a little common sense and some changes in taxation, to shift the balance to a more stable position.

Couln't agree more Brian and it has been true since time began. How to change it is the question. Used to be revolutions but we have moved on from that haven't we.*-)*-) Roy Fuller

[Brian Kirby]

The ultimate solution is, of course, an infinitely wise and benign dictator!  Problem, is how to find one!  :-)  Elective democracies are way down the scale, but seem to be all we can manage to cobble together.  Bitch, ain't it? :-D