Info on Greece

[KD1]

We have just ended our European trip with a 6 week visit to Greece, which I have previously done many times , so if anybody wants any info on Greece, i will be happy to oblige.

 

Now looking forward to going back to Spain for the Winter. 3 weeks will be long enough in the UK climate for us.

[Guest JudgeMental]

Come on then tell us the story...Its cold outside! :-D

[Tomo3090]

We're planning to go next spring, so if you could PM me with as much stuff as you can that would be great.

 

Ta!

[JENIAN]

My stepson lives in Thessoloniki and we would appreciate any info please.

 

Regards,

 

Ian

[mgain]

which ferry route did you use, and what where the prices please. :-D

[KD1]

Route used- Ferry Ancona-Patras 449euro return for 2 Adults in a Motorhome 8m 31 august out and return on 10 Oct,Camping on Deck with Anek Lines.

LPG outlets very thin on the ground. Used one at Tripoli on the Peloponese.

Wild Camping was not a problem, only used 2 sites at 16e and 18e a nite without hook up. Police presence was very small-but they turned a blind eye in all the places we saw them.

diesel around 1.30e a litre.

Beer in a taverna 2-3e a pint.

Eating out -around 10e for a stater and a main course each.

 

Road condition poor in many areas with potholes and unsurfaced sections.

Driving- Greek drivers always have to overtake you-mostly on blind corners-so not for the faint hearted.

Mostly German and French camper vans-we did meet around 6 other Brits.

 

sSupermarkets-food limited and expensive.

 

We had a great time-but left early as the weather was getting cooler.

[Brian Kirby]

We've also just returned from 6 weeks/1,500 miles around Peloponnese/NW Greece, via Ancona Igoumenitsa, but using camp sites.  Out 1 Sept, returned 14 Oct, also Anek, camping on board.

Between the two of us, therefore, we should be able to answer most of your questions.  However, since the subject is a very large chunk of an entire country, it will help if you give some idea of the sorts of things you want to know.  It is not an easy country (is any?) to summarise in a few sentences, with many "on the one hand, on the other", type issues.  Bit of a paradox, in short!  :-)

[Don Madge]

Why don't the two of you each do a write up of your trip to give some idea were you went and then people can ask questions if need be. :-D :-D

 

Don

[Tomo3090]

Hi Brian, I'll start with the simple ones and work my way up!

 

Did you book campsites as you went along or just turn up?

 

What are the standards like on sites, like here, like France, like Spain/Italy or worse?

 

I know you said you only used sites but did you get an impression of how easy it would have been to get water, dunp waste etc, if you didn't stay on a site.

 

Did you do any inter island ferries and if so what were they like for boarding? I'm thinking here of "overhang" problems.

 

Were the road direction signs easy to read and follow or are they similar to Italy where they just point in a general direction!?

 

Were the sites/touristy things busy?

 

That'l do for now! Thanks

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

Tomo3090 - 2010-10-23 3:52 PM Hi Brian, I'll start with the simple ones and work my way up! Did you book campsites as you went along or just turn up?

Hi Stephen. 

Just to feed Don's curiosity a bit, roughly what we did was Igoumenitsa down to Patras, across to Corinth, then clockwise round the Peloponnese, back East across to Sounio, up to Athens, then Delphi and Metoria, and back to Igoumenitsa.  We visited a lot of archaeological sites as we travelled: Kassope, Corinth, Acrocorinth, Epidauros, Mystra, Geraki, then round the Mani to Messene, on to Koroni and Methoni, Nestor's Palace, Karitaina, Olympia, Mycenae, Temple of Poseidon at Sounio, Acropolis and archaeological museum at Athens, and the monastery of Ossio Louka.  Delphi and Meteora were a wash out, a) because the weather broke and all we got was low cloud and rain and b) because I knackered my leg in Athens and couldn't walk!

So, back to the questions: no bookings, just turned up.  Plenty of room at all sites visited.

What are the standards like on sites, like here, like France, like Spain/Italy or worse?

Of 19 sites visited, 3 I would call good, the rest were mediocre.  Facilities were invariably clean, but generally very tired.  Plenty of hot water though.  We found we generally had to cruise the WCs and showers to find the one that actually worked, and was intact.  Maintenance is not a Greek strong point!  Many sites had free WiFi, though.

I know you said you only used sites but did you get an impression of how easy it would have been to get water, dunp waste etc, if you didn't stay on a site.

It was, at times, a problem finding somewhere to dump grey water on sites.  No idea how this would work off site, nor about water supply.

Did you do any inter island ferries and if so what were they like for boarding? I'm thinking here of "overhang" problems.

No, stayed on the mainland.

Were the road direction signs easy to read and follow or are they similar to Italy where they just point in a general direction!?

Generally, the signs are good, with nearly all written in the Latin alphabet as well as Greek.  My overall comment would be that the signs are better than the roads.  :-)

Were the sites/touristy things busy? That'l do for now! Thanks

  

People were saying that many visitors had cancelled due to the bad publicity over strikes and riots, and that the roads were generally quieter than in previous years.  We met two people who said Greece had generally gone downhill over the past five years.

It is a stunningly beautiful, very mountainous, country, and you won't travel fast off the new motorways.  I spent literally hours in second gear in the mountains: there are very, very few straights or level stretches - but the views!  The coast is generally spectacular - but!  For reasons we could not understand, the Greeks seem not to respect their country at all,  Everywhere we went, from mountain passes to sand beaches, plains, towns, the lot, was covered in litter: discarded fag packets, plastic bottles, plastic bags, general refuse, fly tipping, rural rubbish dumped straight down the mountainside, it mattered not what or where, and that was a great disappointment.  Due to local and national tax rules, and the Greek approach to housing, which commonly is to build a bit when they have the money, with a view to passing it on the their children, very few buildings are finished, leaving optimistic starter bars sticking out of "roofs" ready for the next floor.  It appears many developers have gone bankrupt, leaving part finished concrete frames sitting all over the place, many houses have more or less finished frames, but with only the ground floor finished and upper storeys left in raw concrete.  Virtually nothing, anywhere, is finished, with litter and waste land interspersed with occupied buildings in most towns/villages.  In short, plain ugly.  Yet, this is the country that gave western Europe its aesthetic mould 3,500 years ago.  The regression is staggering - despite the turbulent history.

Driving, on the whole, was on a par with Italy 40 years ago.  Not actually bad or reckless (except perhaps those doing over 80MPH on powerful motorbikes in shorts, tee shirts and flipflops - without skidlids) but in complete disregard of road markings or speed limits.  However, crossroads were generally approached with caution, mainly, it seemed, because the priority is impossible to determine - so a self limiting risk!  Double white lines are where you overtake.  The hard shoulder is where you drive, and not where you stop, so that others can overtake.  This is so ingrained many even do it on three lane motorways!   Speed limits are at best indicative, and to be honest, miles of road have hopelessly unrealistically low limits, so they are simply disregarded, leading to even the more sensible ones also being disregarded.  It's a kind of automotive wild west and, to be honest, I haven't had so much fun in years!  Truck drivers were very good, bus/coach drivers seem to have some notion of superiority, and won't give a millimetre, or acknowledge courtesies.

Many of the mountain roads are very narrow, or suddenly become so where the odd landslide has removed bits of the road!  Road edges are often 150 or so mm above the adjacent verge, often more, so you don't want to put a wheel off - coupled to which they are very ragged, so you have to watch exactly where your nearside wheels are going.  Roadside trees (and a few other odds and sods!), frequently very old, heavily pruned, olive trees, lean into the carriageway and could be quite damaging if brushed.

The road surfaces are not generally too bad, saving odd patches where the asphalte has sheared into large ripples, but if wet they are incredibly slippery.  Greece is the only country I have ever driven in where I could provoke wheelspin at will going uphill in third gear.  Interesting!  :-)

Hope this helps.

[Tomo3090]

Thanks very much Brian for a comprehensive view. Ann is now looking forward to Morocco! :-D

 

 

[KD1]

Hello Brian,

 

Were you the gentleman who was using your laptop at Reception at Gythion Bay Campsite?? I think we were using ours the same time!!

 

Regards.

 

Keith.

[Guest JudgeMental]

I think I remember reading one of the reasons they leave the houses unfinished and live in them is for tax reasons? :-S

 

What was the genral prices of campsites and fuel? Plus eating out..... nice food (it used to be years ago) and costs plse :-D

[Guest JudgeMental]

KD1 - 2010-10-26 11:09 AM

 

Hello Brian,

 

Were you the gentleman who was using your laptop at Reception at Gythion Bay Campsite?? I think we were using ours the same time!!

 

Regards.

 

Keith.

 

And you didn't say hello?....How quintessentially English! :D

[Petra]

We lived in Greece for many years and spent two months travelling there earlier this year. What Brian says is absolutely true, the Greeks are a funny lot and still think they rule the world. Hazard warning lights mean they are invisible and know you have spent too long there when you drive the wrong way down a one way street because it is quicker!!

 

As for dumping waste this is only possible at campsites and very few have drive over motorhome service points. The only two we encountered were at Parga and Pylos. We have seen Germans and Dutch digging holes and burying it but we tended to go to sites every few days.

 

We had problems with wild camping on the Peloponnese as the Police were moving people on and we heard that some Germans had even been arrested and imprisoned overnight. This was early season and the police tend to lose interest as it gets hotter. Some popular overnights stops however now have signs saying no overnight parking and giving details of heavy fines.

 

Ferries to the larger islands are fine with no problems boarding, although occasionally you have to reverse on. Ferries to smaller islands are more of a problem and you have to think do you have to go there with your motorhome and is there anywhere to go when you get there. Most smaller islands the ferry goes into the town and it is very difficult to get out of some towns with a large motorhome. Ferry prices are quite expensive, make sure you knock off at least half a metre; the ferry agent in Kastelli in Western Crete knocked off a metre and a half and it still cost over 300 euros one way to Gytheio!!

 

Costs for fuel were about 1.20 euros per litre but costs were going up all the time. Food was getting very expensive expect to pay 20 to 30 euros for a meal for 2 plus wine. Campsites cost between 18 and 25 euros with most charging extra for electricity. It is worth using the camping club discounts from the ferry operators.

 

The Greeks are very eccentric but you will have a lot of laughs and a great time.

[Brian Kirby]

KD1 - 2010-10-26 11:09 AM Hello Brian, Were you the gentleman who was using your laptop at Reception at Gythion Bay Campsite?? I think we were using ours the same time!! Regards. Keith.

We were there 14-17 September.  Is that about right for dates?

[Brian Kirby]

JudgeMental - 2010-10-26 11:23 AM I think I remember reading one of the reasons they leave the houses unfinished and live in them is for tax reasons? :-S What was the genral prices of campsites and fuel? Plus eating out..... nice food (it used to be years ago) and costs plse :-D

Most sites 20 - 23 Euros, Athens 29, inc hook-up.  Quality, as above, generally mediocre.  Best were Acrogiali, at Riza, about 60 miles south of Igoumenitsa, Erodios, near Pyla on Navarino Bay, and Athens.  Otherwise, well overpriced for what you get IMO.

Fuel varied between 1.30 and 1.39.

Eating out: not generally good value, IMO.  Greeks eat at all kinds of odd times, and tourists at different times.  This makes life for caterers pretty impossible, as not only do they not know how many may show up, they don't know when.  Result, frozen and catering pack meals come the the fore, meaning wherever you are you get, more or less, the same (moussaka dominated) choices. 

Coupled to this, anyone with premises on a sea front, and a cooker, becomes a "restaurant" of some kind, and you have a ridiculous proliferation of eateries: the competition is mainly on price and not quality, "aided" by loads of pictures of what is on offer.  Oh yes, and they have pavement touts to lure you in.  They seemed completely fazed when I explained that touting seemed to me a sign of desperation, that gave the impression it was the only way they could attract trade, so I'd eat elsewhere!  What you get is uninspiring, I think many of the kitchens wouldn't last beyond a week almost anywhere else in Europe, and the prices are about what you'd pay for a reasonable meal in France.  Wine is cheaper if you get a carafe of house wine and is very drinkable.  Water is usually free, and there is almost invariably a cover charge of around 50 cents, that includes the bread.  You need to choose with some care, and then you can get some very interesting meals: the best we had were in Athens, and Corinth.  Olympia was fairly awful - and nearly everywhere else we just looked, but then passed on!  They just don't get it!  :-) 

Truth to tell, you get better Greek food (albeit mainly Cypriot) in London (and Jimmy's is still in Frith St, Soho.  :-)), and we even had a very passable Greek meal in Glasgow a few years back!  Oh dear!

[Guest JudgeMental]

I have fond memory's of touring Greece when younger in a battered VW. in restaurants they would bring you into the kitchen to choose from lots of dishes simmering on the stoves.......It was heavenly and cheap as chips. And that reminds me, my staple meal was a feta cheese mixed salad and chips. The reports above seem to read that Greece is on the slide a bit, a bit sad really as wonderful people and a great country........

[flicka]

Agree with Eddie, we have been to many places in Greece (not in Motorhome) & had many happy times & meals. Yes, they are s very laid back but a very hospitable & family oriented nation.

Out of season many of the islands will seem deserted as folk tend to go out to them for the season's work & return to the mainland from late September, mid October.

As Eddie remembered, part finished buildings are a common sight (or should that be site ?) due to two reasons, partly tax but mainly because they had very short term mortgages (max 10 years from memory), so built what they could, paid that off & then took out another mortgage & started building again.

But unfortunately the Greeks do lack western standards of Waste disposal.

I remember on one island, looking down into what appeared a glorious deserted bay. The only way there was to walk, no road/track access. After walking for maybe 2 hours we arrived to find the reason for it's being deserted, it was knee deep in rubbish.

Another year up in the mountains on Crete (Samaria Gorge), we were amazed at the volume of Beach furniture / Ice cream signs, etc., dumped over the roadside down a ravine.

WHY transport it all the way up a mountain (?) (?) (?)

Most of the above may appear a bit negative, No just the downside, overlook them (they don't show up on the video/photos.)

We love the country & it's islands & it's people.

For history buffs, it has a vast amount range of interest.

For walkers a vast variety of places to go (although some tracks can be a bit indistinctive) & not unusual to find a eatery in the most unlikely places. Or a farmer inviting you to pick some fruit FOC.

Grandmothers keep check on all the local kids, they don't have to lock their doors.

Local transport on the Islands is an experience, especially the last bus from town. NO EU H&S here.

Get out and explore away from the usual Tourist traps & meet the real Greece. They are two different places. :-D

[Brian Kirby]

But where to find this real Greece, John?  We travelled widely across, and around, the Peloponnese, but not to the islands.  As Petra says, the islands, except perhaps Crete, are not so easily visited with a motorhome.  Besides, we didn't go expecting to be disappointed with what we found and saw: we were open minded over what we might find, and had little in the way of expectations, and went to see and to explore.  I have no desire to give a false impression of Greece, and have reported it as accurately as I can, based on what we found, and where we were.  As I said, it is a fundamentally beautiful country, but its inhabitants appear not to value or protect its beauty, natural or urban.  Should we have just flown in, gone to an island, and avoided the rest?

Maybe we did, unwittingly, go just to the tourist traps?  Some undoubtedly are, but if you want to see Mycenae, Corinth, Mystra, Olympia, and the Acropolis, you just have to put up with the tour buses and their occupants. :-)  Besides, if you want a tourist trap, try Venice, and I love Venice.  Other places we visited, though, we were alone, or virtually alone. 

We were told by a Belgian couple who had visited annually, with a motorhome, for a number of years, that they thought things had deteriorated over the past four or so years, so maybe it is the deterioration that we saw most clearly.  I had a long chat with visiting Australians while at Athens, and they had exactly the same bemused reaction as we had.  Basically, what is it that the Greeks have against Greece?  It is very puzzling.

Wonderful archaeological sites, some frustratingly presented, some brilliantly presented, demonstrating an extraordinary level of technological, social, and political sophistication over 3,500 years ago, that now seems to have more or less evaporated.  Paradox upon paradox.  Warm, friendly, helpful, people who despoil their towns, beaches and countryside, but rely heavily on tourism for their income.  We spent a lot of the time we were there pinching ourselves at the contradictions.  We have discussed what we found at length since leaving, and we still can't make sense of it.  In truth, I think we emerged a little shocked.  So, what did we miss?  We certainly feel we must have missed something.

[flicka]

Hi Brian,

I think I understand your disappointment as a large number of the “Tourist traps” do not IMHO reflect the true Greece. Also by the end of each season many of the guides, restaurateurs’ etc., are jaded, as they tend to work very long hours earning sufficient income from the season to see them through the whole year. I think, looking at the timing of your tour, you may have encountered the effects associated with this. Not an excuse, but it occurs in a large number of popular Holiday destinations.

Regarding your point “Coupled to this, anyone with premises on a sea front, and a cooker, becomes a "restaurant" of some kind, and you have a ridiculous proliferation of eateries: the competition is mainly on price and not quality, "aided" by loads of pictures of what is on offer. Oh yes, and they have pavement touts to lure you in. They seemed completely fazed when I explained that touting seemed to me a sign of desperation, that gave the impression it was the only way they could attract trade, so I'd eat elsewhere! “ I think this is true of most popular destinations, Spain being the worst IMO. The old adage, check out where the locals eat is generally the best advice.

It is now 4 years since our last visit & I hope things have not deteriorated as much as your report suggests. It would be a shame but unfortunately given the current state of the Greek economy, I may be being optimistic.

Our 1st ever night in Greece was horrendous at an Athens transit hotel, prior to boarding the Ferry, next morning. Overcrowded, people laying down in every available space, including the staircase & the bar awash with beer over the floor, but they were all Brits, not Greeks & was mainly due to a very heavy thunder storm disrupting the ferry services. Having said that the Tour Operator could have done more to ease the situation.

It has many beautiful locations and dramatic scenery on both the mainland & islands, but as you & Petra mentioned many of the Islands are not really suitable for Motorhomes.

IMHO the Pelonpelese is not one of its best areas, but others may disagree.

Our favourite area on the mainland is the North West of the country, which is not very popular with tourists, in fact during one week in late September we did not see anyone other than the locals.

The local building in the small villages, do differ from the general impression of Greece, being built of stone. To us it is a fantastically beautiful mountainous area with the Vikos Gorge being our highlight.

Similarly, can anyone be anything but overawed by Meteora. Incredible Monastic structures built on the peaks of the mountains foothills, with all the building materials & Monks hauled up in wicker baskets, with views away to the south over a vast plateau.

We have also found this area to be far less cluttered by litter & rubbish or tarnished by mass tourism.

The Greek do exhibit different values to the current “modern western” ideals, but they retain many good traditional values which IMHO, we (UK) have allowed to slide downwards. Sense of Family, low burglary & crimes against other people, etc..

 

I would hope your experience this year, has not put you off revisiting at some time in the future.

[Guest JudgeMental]

I think visiting in May is probably better, as Flika is right, by the end of the season a bit dusty and worn and a feeling of closing down as opposed to opening up....

 

I know Brian had initally intended to go in the spring being a romantic at heart :-D

[Brian Kirby]

Hi John.

I think, in view of what you have said, that you may find things have, sadly, gone downhill since your last visit.  Certainly that seemed to be the reaction of one or two more experienced "Greece hands" we met.

Re late season breaks, yes of course things and people get a bit tired, but we have travelled elsewhere in autumn and know, and allowed for, that: it happens everywhere.  So I don't think it was just that.

On the basis of what you say, I'm not sure I can really differentiate the tourist traps from other locations!  Olympia was worst, being a whole "village" basically built to pack 'em in, and service them.  But we knew that, and I'm not complaining about Olympia, which, in a sanitised kind of way, was at least clean, tidy, and rubbish free.  Check, worst by far was Tolo, a horrible little kiss-me-quick resort - but there's always one!  You mention Meteora, and the Vikos gorge, which I would rate as a tourist traps, in that both definitely set out to attract tourists.  Many of the places we visited were far lower key than Meteora, or Vikos, but the picture didn't change that much.  Didn't try for Vikos, but Meteora presented two problems for us, neither of which were anyone's fault.  Rain and low cloud totally enveloped the mountains, so nothing could be seen, and my leg had given out, so I was in any case pretty immobile!  C'est la vie.  :-)

Restaurants?  In truth, we saw very few places with locals eating, except at Archaia Korinthos (the village, not the ruins!) where we had a recommendation, and three places around Athens.  They were local, and good.  The rest were basically formula grub, and were mostly nearly empty.  As I said, anywhere with a waterfront (which is a lot of places around the Peloponnese), not all of which seemed to me to be tourist traps - though all looked as though they wanted to be - was just lined with far too many eateries, selling much the same thing, for quality to survive.  Fish, when available, was an exorbitant price - no doubt being the reason it was in short supply!  Pavement touts?  Lisbon was far worse, but it still smacks of desperation in my book - more so in a fishing village with a full time population of 1,500 - 2,000, and 15 - 20 eateries.

Noticed the buildings in the north west were of natural materials, as were many in Messinia.  Much more agreeable than the half-built tat, which seems to result from past political ineptitudes.

We were there for six weeks, we travelled about 1,500 miles, and the longest we stayed in one place, apart from 6 nights in Athens, was 4 nights, so we took in quite a lot of the central and coastal Peloponnese, as well as Epirus, Etolo-Akarnania, Sterea-Elladha and Thessaly in the north west.  I think, so far as those areas are concerned, we gained a fair impression of them.  Neither of us knew what to expect, so our reactions are just that, our reactions. 

The people are friendly and helpful, and the country itself is stunning, the archaeology equally so, and a true revelation.  (For example, I'd no idea flint was in use by the same people, at the same time, alongside bronze, and we were completely bowled over by the delicacy and quality of 3,500 year old pottery, metalwork, and masonry - and the sculpture.....!).  The ugliness (buildings and litter) I referred to is all fairly recent, and is all man-made.  It is that which I find so completely inexplicable, and so perverse and disappointing.  If we go back, it will be after a break, and most likely to Crete, in hope of finding better.

Dunno what's happened to Keith (KD1), who started this, his take would be interesting.

[Guest JudgeMental]

On our trip we crossed over to Crete with the intention of staying a couple of weeks but we stayed nearly three months :-D

[Don Madge]

JudgeMental - 2010-10-27 5:16 PM

 

On our trip we crossed over to Crete with the intention of staying a couple of weeks but we stayed nearly three months :-D

Hi Eddie,

 

Crete has that effect on you. :-D :-D We spent six weeks there earlier this year and it was near paradise especially in the south of the island.

 

We found some excellent restaurants a bit pricey but well worth it.

 

The campsites are expensive for whats on offer but we spent only a few days on them.

 

It will definitely be one of our winter haunts once we have to slow down and take it easy.

 

Safe travelling.

 

Don