spiritoftheblues Posted October 22, 2010 Share Posted October 22, 2010 New to Motorhomes, I am looking to use an 'A' Frame to tow a car behind my Apache 700, 2.3 engine, manual gear box, what is the largest vehicle that I can leagally safely tow? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted October 22, 2010 Share Posted October 22, 2010 Hi and welcome to the mad house! :-D As far as I can recall: If you intend to use an A frame you can use an un-braked one for vehicles up to 750kg including the A frame If you want to take a heavier vehicle you would have to have a braked A frame and your train weight would be the limiting factor (the maxium weight of your motorhome, A frame and tow vehicle). The train weight is stamped on the chassis plate. From memory the plate gives your front and rear axle weight limits, the total weight limit (MTPLM) for your motorhome on it's own (maximum total permitted laden mass) and the train weight which is the largest figure. You need to make sure that you don't overload your rear axle weight too - if you're close to it's limit, the down force from the A frame could take you too close for comfort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Collings Posted October 22, 2010 Share Posted October 22, 2010 Any car that is towed is in law a trailer. If a trailer has brakes they must operate( Con and use regs). Therefore all cars towed on an A frame must have working brakes and there must be some means of stopping them working during reversing. The second line down on the chassis plate gives the max train weight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flicka Posted October 22, 2010 Share Posted October 22, 2010 Just a word of caution. There was a recent article quoting the National Caravan Council as saying that pending legislation may make all "A" Frames illegal throughout the EU. I posted the details on another thread, but can't seem to find it now. Try the search facility, you may have more luck. It may be prudent to wait & see how things develop before committing to buy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted October 22, 2010 Share Posted October 22, 2010 2009 Apache 700 manual states 1050kg. Or are you wanting a vehicle make/model as opposed to weight? To give you some idea on that, I think all Vauxhalls incuding Agila and 3dr Corsa would be too heavy unless stripped out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogP Posted October 23, 2010 Share Posted October 23, 2010 spiritoftheblues - 2010-10-22 7:08 PM New to Motorhomes, I am looking to use an 'A' Frame to tow a car behind my Apache 700, 2.3 engine, manual gear box, what is the largest vehicle that I can leagally safely tow? You dont say what year your MH is , if its any help I have a 2007 and the max towing limit is 1250kgs , you will need to check your own MH to confirm if your's is the same. Dont get mis lead by data published in magazines as I found out this isn't always correct. Check your V5 and the plates on the MH to make sure. An A Frame will weigh about 20-30kgs depending on what you go for and give yourself some margin with the limit to allow for the TOAD having full tank of fuel and any personal affects you choose to leave in it. When you know your limit check out the Parkers Guide website as I found them a good source of data for the kerb weight of cars I was considering. Based on my circumstances we went for a 2008 Toyota Yaris which tips the scales at about 970kgs which is well within the limits , even at the lower end. As an outfit we dont have any problems towing the Yaz with the Apache it does it with a fair amount of ease and i can truthfully say you dont realise its there , I generally keep the rear camera on when towing just to make sure!! As for the A Frame , we went for the Chris Cox offering , and the fit is excellent you can barely see any visible signs the TOADs been altered unlike some conversions. Good Luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted October 23, 2010 Share Posted October 23, 2010 flicka - 2010-10-22 10:20 PM Just a word of caution. There was a recent article quoting the National Caravan Council as saying that pending legislation may make all "A" Frames illegal throughout the EU. I posted the details on another thread, but can't seem to find it now. Try the search facility, you may have more luck. It may be prudent to wait & see how things develop before committing to buy. Probably this one... http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=21115&posts=24 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spiritoftheblues Posted October 24, 2010 Author Share Posted October 24, 2010 Thanx for the replies, I was planning on towing a 2011 5 door corsa 1.2. My Apache is a 2010. But I am no hurry, I will follow the advice given and wait and see what any new legislation brings... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickt Posted October 25, 2010 Share Posted October 25, 2010 Have a look at the free magazine MOTORHOME MONTHLY october ,there is a two page article on on A frames . It seems that as from 2014 they will be mostly illegal in Europe The NCC (National Caravan Council) have looked into this and the European legislation 71/320/EEC will be replaced by UNECE regulation 13 section 5.2.2.2. It is all to do with the inertia braking. It seems that the only to tow a car is on a professionally made car transporter trailer This magazine can be downloaded Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawcara Posted October 25, 2010 Share Posted October 25, 2010 Whilst I can add nothing to the discussion, I somehow have a flyer in my possession. Website is www.tow-bars2tow-cars.com Tel: 01469560402 *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted October 26, 2010 Share Posted October 26, 2010 Mickt - 2010-10-25 9:07 AM Have a look at the free magazine MOTORHOME MONTHLY october ,there is a two page article on on A frames . It seems that as from 2014 they will be mostly illegal in Europe The NCC (National Caravan Council) have looked into this and the European legislation 71/320/EEC will be replaced by UNECE regulation 13 section 5.2.2.2. It is all to do with the inertia braking. It seems that the only to tow a car is on a professionally made car transporter trailer This magazine can be downloaded The 2-page article is referenced by "mhm1510p34" in the Table of Contents part of the Motorhome Monthly magazine website. The article mostly comprises photos and doesn't progress the matter any further than what was reported elsewhere over a month ago. What is actually said is that the 2014 regulation change will make the 'traditional' A-frame design (ie. with simple inertia over-run braking) illegal and, as a consequence, make illegal the majority of the A-frames currently used by UK motorcaravanners. There is already plenty of argument on motorhome-related forums as to whether the replacement regulation will apply retrospectively and, of course, there are alternative A-frame designs marketed in the UK that don't use an over-run mechanism for braking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted October 26, 2010 Share Posted October 26, 2010 Ultimately, unless the regulation comes out for consultation beforehand, we'll just have to wait and see what it says. There are a number of issues that aren't referred to in the article, and I'd be grateful if anyone has the text of the NCC document that is referred to in the article, which I can't find on the NCC website. I also note that Eurolex is silent on the subject of modifying or repealing the existing directive, so am unclear where this 2014 date is coming from.A car plus A frame is believed by DfT to become, legally, a trailer. They "believe" this (presumably on advice) because the precise combination is not covered by legislation, and there is no legal precedent on how the various bits of existing legislation might be interpreted by the courts. Same applies to braking performance, both forwards and in reverse. However, if the car + A frame does indeed constitute a trailer, it constitutes a full trailer because it has 4 wheels on two axles more than one metre apart. The legislation for full trailers is a bit more tricky that for single axle trailers. For example, so far as I can see, if the trailer is equipped with ABS, the ABS must work when the trailer is under tow. Find me a small, modern, car without ABS (or ASR, or HSA, or ESP, or any number of other electronic gizmos for that matter) and explain how that requirement, which I believe is relevant, can be complied with when the car engine is not running, and the ignition off. Add to that, modern cars are riddled with electronics, and I simply can't understand how the kinds of interventions necessary to make braking systems work adequately can be introduced without complex, and presumably costly, modifications that then would need testing for unexpected consequences, before being permitted.Any mods to the car need to have type approval, as the car itself is type approved. UK is a bit ambivalent in its approach to TA, but mainland Europe, most notably France and Germany, are not. For example, I DIY fitted an ADAC certified (and therefore Type Approved) Firestone air suspension system to our van. In Germany (or France) I would not be allowed to do that and would have to have the job done professionally, following which the vehicle would have to be submitted for approval by the firm doing the work, and the CoC changed by an authorised body to record what had been done, and by whom. Imagine how that would work for modifications to those most safety critical elements of a car: the brakes. The A frame concept is delightfully simple and very appealing, but I really cannot at present see how it can be made legal in a world of Type Approvals. Too bureaucratic? Maybe, but what happens if you buy a second hand car that has been incompetently modified, resulting in a braking anomaly and an accident? With growing safety comes complexity, and with that the need for greater control to protect the innocent. If you want to tow a car on an A frame, try a 1930 MG Midget. Simple cable brakes, handbrake using the same cable, light, no steering lock, and simple beam front axle with simple, visible, Ackerman steering. It's the way to go! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickt Posted October 26, 2010 Share Posted October 26, 2010 Brain, When the A frame is fitted to modern cars surely the crumple zone is made null and void.ie the bar fitted to front of the car. How would this pass an MOT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebishbus Posted October 26, 2010 Share Posted October 26, 2010 Ah well Brian, that partly answers a previous post of mine, concerning towing my ( PVT ) . 1936 Triumph Gloria Vitesse Tourer, with an A frame. It does have hydraulic brakes though. :-) Brian B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flicka Posted October 26, 2010 Share Posted October 26, 2010 As I have posted on other recent threads, caution is prudent regarding "A" Frames http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=21365&posts=14 "A-frame rules set to change" The National Caravan Council release stated The current European Type Approval legislation for trailers, 71/320/EEC, is due to be rescinded in 2014 and replaced by UN ECE Regulation 13. Part of this Regulation (section 5.2.2.2) stipulates that inertia braking systems will only be permitted on centre axle trailers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNECE This link also has further information. http://www.ukmotorhomes.net/a-frames.shtml Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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