hero mr r walsh

[tazdog6007]

My heart soared at the letter from r walsh on a replacement lens for his rapido.4.99 from 101 quid! this is probably typical of dealer rip offs thoughout the industry.when i read of buyers treating sales poeple like their favourite nephew, milking them of their penson lump sums i wonder for their sanity.these poeple sold slaves in a past life,and their fist lesson at sales school is ""what you buy is the best thing since sliced bread what you are trading in is the worst thing ever built. my last camper a burstner had a trade in price of £13000 on the front a week later "£29.500.A curse on all their houses. My god i feel better!

[LordThornber]

Good post and a timely hint or 2 for those folk who really do believe that the salesperson is their new/old best friend.

 

At the only show we've attended, there was a particular van we wanted to view. Once found, it was clear we weren't getting anywhere near it because of this couple who were clearly getting the "royal" treatment.

 

Anyway we wandered around, came back an hour later and lo and behold they're still holding court. I managed to speak to the chap from the couple and deary me, you'd have the thought the rep was having the couples surrogate children. Talk about them kissing HIS backside.

 

It was too embarrassing to watch or listen to. There's a fairly big clue in their title in case anyone really believes that these folk are their mates...

 

SALES Person

 

Martyn

[euroserv]

I dunno about that Martyn;

 

I think it would be a pretty poor salesman that can't close the deal in under 2 hours when the customer is so desperate to buy!

 

Nick

[rupert123]

tazdog6007 - 2010-10-26 2:24 PM

 

My heart soared at the letter from r walsh on a replacement lens for his rapido.4.99 from 101 quid! this is probably typical of dealer rip offs thoughout the industry.when i read of buyers treating sales poeple like their favourite nephew, milking them of their penson lump sums i wonder for their sanity.these poeple sold slaves in a past life,and their fist lesson at sales school is ""what you buy is the best thing since sliced bread what you are trading in is the worst thing ever built. my last camper a burstner had a trade in price of £13000 on the front a week later "£29.500.A curse on all their houses. My god i feel better!

 

Come off it. Where is the rip off, no one has to buy. If you really sold your van for £13000 and it had a retail value of £29500 you must be seriously naive and a salesmans dream. I have sold cars in the recent past and try to get the best deal I can as do most customers. If a customer accepts my first offer for a part ex. what am I supposed to do tell him no that is not enough I will give you double.

[euroserv]

That's not quite right either;

 

Call them daft if you like but a great many people, when told by a person 'in the know' that their vehicle is 'only' worth 'x' might expect a little 'y' to be added but deserve better than the 'z' that it is really going to be put up for sale at. Also it needs to be said that just because they put it up for sale at that price they will not actually get it unless a sililarly uninformed person happens to pass by......

 

What do we learn from this?

 

Study the market and decide what your vehicle is worth.

 

Deduct a margin that you think would be a reasonable profit for the dealer (10% would be fair).

 

Do not accept less than that for your vehicle unless the one that you are trading yours in for is also very reasonably priced. There could be many thousands of pounds of profit for you to chip away at.

 

At the end of the day you do not owe the salesman a living and if the cost to change (and that is the secret) is too high, or the gulf between what they would be asking for yours in a week and what they will give you now is unreasonably great........ WALK AWAY.

 

Whatever you may think at the time, there are plenty of vehicles out there and your cash is still valuable. Spend it wisely.

 

There really is no point in complaining after the event but I do think that anyone who sets themselves up as a dealer is in a position of trust and their guidance on values should be more honest. The dealer that says that a vehicle is worth £22000 but then says that he would buy it in at £17000 is far more credible and honest. He gives you the choice, and an informed one at that. Far more respectable.

 

Nick

[Porky]

euroserv - 2010-10-26 5:55 PM

 

anyone who sets themselves up as a dealer is in a position of trust and their guidance on values should be more honest. The dealer that says that a vehicle is worth £22000 but then says that he would buy it in at £17000 is far more credible and honest. He gives you the choice, and an informed one at that. Far more respectable.

 

Nick

 

Yeh right an honest dealer*-) Having said that you will never know if he is honest if you don't ask the right questions. Blind acceptance of what you are told is the salesmans dream. There is no point complaining if you don't put them on the spot with awkward questions. Just imagine a salesman telling his boss he lost a sale because he pointed out all the vehicles faults because he wanted to be fair and honest. I don't think he would be in that job for long.

My question is "does anyone know what sort of margin a dealer makes">:-)>:-)

[Brian Kirby]

Well, it is the world we live in.  We all expect, or want, the highest possible price for our van when we sell, but we resent the seller doing exactly the same thing when we buy.

Money goes around, the faster it goes, the wealthier we all become, or so says economic theory.  That is why governments exhort us to save, but really want us to spend.  What someone else spends is up to him, what I spend is all I can control.

Mr Walsh was smart, and lucky, in spotting that the Fiat 500 indicator repeater matched the present Rapido mirror mounted indicator repeater, but to say the Rapido dealer was ripping him off, is being a bit naive.

In the first place, the Rapido is an A class with non-Fiat mirrors.  So off you go to the Rapido dealer, because they are the only likely source of supply.  They will have to get their replacement part through the Rapido supply chain, at the Rapido price, and I rather doubt if even Rapido themselves know that their mirror supplier is using a £5.00 Fiat 500 repeater lens.

Then there is the possibility, not reported upon, that the replacement would have turned out to be the whole mirror shroud, and not just the lens - Mr Walsh had only the (presumably) store-man's (not salesman's) word for what would be delivered.

Sales people perform a valuable economic function, which is to extract as much cash from us as possible, as quickly as possible, and not to act as unbiased sales consultants in the consumer's interest.

We may not like it, and I certainly don't, but it is their function even if it is sometimes based on lies, damned lies, and spurious statistics (or at least manufacturers' claims for their products :-)).

It isn't a new phenomenon: "caveat emptor" is a Latin term for good reason.  Remember the saying "a fool and his money are soon parted", and keep your wits about you when buying, because you who buy are the "fatted calves" of the economy.  Dammit, no: keep spending folks, as rashly and as fast as possible, because my pension needs you to!  That man Walsh is a traitor to the cause!  :-D

[flicka]

LordThornber - 2010-10-26 2:43 PM

 

Good post and a timely hint or 2 for those folk who really do believe that the salesperson is their new/old best friend.

 

At the only show we've attended, there was a particular van we wanted to view. Once found, it was clear we weren't getting anywhere near it because of this couple who were clearly getting the "royal" treatment.

 

Anyway we wandered around, came back an hour later and lo and behold they're still holding court. I managed to speak to the chap from the couple and deary me, you'd have the thought the rep was having the couples surrogate children. Talk about them kissing HIS backside.

 

It was too embarrassing to watch or listen to. There's a fairly big clue in their title in case anyone really believes that these folk are their mates...

 

SALES Person

 

Martyn

 

But that might have been us, Martyn.

we sat with a Salesman at the NEC of 3-1/2hours, accepted his hospitality & after much toing & froing between him, his sales manager & the manufacturer, eventually between them they came up with the deal that was acceptable. BUT at the end of the day we were prepared to walk away if they didn't.

As you say their title is "Salespeople" and they have targets to achieve, if they don't it's not long before their title is preceeded by "ex-"

Some of these targets are associated with volumes they have committed to with manufacturers.

 

The point to remember is that at specific times those target are volume based without a loss, not just to achieve a sale with all profit & commission intact.

Some of these targets are associated with volumes they have committed to with manufacturers, which if not met, have a detrimental financial impact on those units already sold.

i.e selling ten units at marginal profit, is more beneficial to selling 2 or 3 at a reasonable profit.

[rupert123]

Before people go on to long about dishonest dealers I would point out that in my car sales experience their are more dishonest customers out their. These days few sales people in car or motorhome dealerships can afford to be dishonest, getting the best deal for you or your company is not being dishonest. I could write a book about the number of people who have told me a load of rubbish about their vehicle. If someone tells me it is faultless and I later find it is far from that I have no comback on them after the deal is complete. Nick states dealers are in a position of trust, well they are in giving the details about a vehicle but on prices no, it is up to each to try and get the deal they believe is a good one for them. As for one telling a customer what the vehicle will be sold for well never heard this one. Also a lot of part ex. vehicles are not sold by the dealer they are passed on through the trade often at a pre agreed price or by auction. So their is no profit at all in the part ex vehicle to the selling dealer.

[Stormy]

I always find it irksome when people run down sales people as the scum of the earth, nothing would happen without sales people, that’s right the motorhomes you all enjoy would cease to exist following the imminent implosion of the manufacture through you’ve guessed it a lack of sales.

A good salesperson will always seek to build a rapport, the old saying of people buy people first and whatever second still holds good. However a customer can sometimes confuse rapport building with genuine friendship,which is really strange because the environment is invariably a showroom or similar and your talking here about choosing a product and financing the sale of that product. You are not having a typical conversation between friends.

A salesman will probably follow a tried and tested formula, something along these lines being sure to close the “door” firmly behind you after each stage. Typically starting with an open questioning technique,  and eventually funnelling down to closed questions at the reveal (the quoted price). But all the time testing your response and removing doubt, before moving on to the next stage, you can also reveal the tyre kickers and dismiss them early on in the process so as not to waste precious time.

Setting the scene (Ice breaker, greet and meet)

Fact find What, When, Pay, Stay (What do you want, when do you want it, how will you pay, should the salesman continue or abort)  

Finance Demonstration (Let me tell you how I can make this affordable and introduce some sweeteners like double indemnity should this appeal)  

Company Demonstration (Build credibility around yourself,dealer and manufacture)

Physical Demonstration (The product itself USP’s unique selling points show your prospects in detail how the van works)

Design / Plan / Cost (Work out which options the prospect can afford and desires)

The Reveal and Negotiation (Present the price and test close, flush out any objections)

Ask for the order – Administration

Follow up with consolidation (Avoid post buyer remorse, by reinforcement)

Always remember this

By failing to prepare, you are preparing to fail, there is no such thing as a poor salesman they don’t last long, so the chances are you will be dealing with a professional not a friend, keep that in mind!

[Guest Peter James]

tazdog6007 - 2010-10-26 2:24 PM

my last camper a burstner had a trade in price of £13000 on the front a week later "£29.500!

 

(Would be interesting to name the dealer and let them have their say.)

 

What I find so incredible is that when buying new cars or vans the main topic of conversation is discounts. (For instance, when I wanted a new X250 maxi van to convert, I did a quick google search, got one from a franchised dealer for £17,200 with a RRP of over £29,000 including the extras fitted) No one seems to expect to pay the windscreen price for a van. With larger commercials the manufacturers don't even have a RRP because fleet buyers would just laugh at it. Everything depends on what they can negotiate. But when it comes to motorhomes I have never even seen discounts mentioned.

Are all motorhomers gullible 'You Get What You Pay For' suckers paying over the top for 'camping' tyres marketed specially for them?

 

Does everybody pay the windscreen price for a new motorhome, or what?

[LordThornber]

Perhaps for Nick and John, (with respect), I should expand a little on my earlier post.

 

The point I was trying to make was that the couple were making this guys job as easy as possible, i.e. like he was their best friend.

 

The Salesperson couldn't have had an easier ride. The couple, from what we could see and hear were positively sucking up to the guy.

 

All jokey with him, laughing wildly at his attempts at humour, telling him he made the best coffees at the show, (York).

 

It's not easy to convey the situation we witnessed but I hope you get the picture, i.e. that potential buyers should, (in my opinion), be straining to get every last penny out of a deal, rather than make the Salespersons life a doddle.

 

Martyn

[rupert123]

Peter James - 2010-10-27 9:37 AM

 

tazdog6007 - 2010-10-26 2:24 PM

my last camper a burstner had a trade in price of £13000 on the front a week later "£29.500!

 

(Would be interesting to name the dealer and let them have their say.)

 

What I find so incredible is that when buying new cars or vans the main topic of conversation is discounts. (For instance, when I wanted a new X250 maxi van to convert, I did a quick google search, got one from a franchised dealer for £17,200 with a RRP of over £29,000 including the extras fitted) No one seems to expect to pay the windscreen price for a van. With larger commercials the manufacturers don't even have a RRP because fleet buyers would just laugh at it. Everything depends on what they can negotiate. But when it comes to motorhomes I have never even seen discounts mentioned.

Are all motorhomers gullible 'You Get What You Pay For' suckers paying over the top for 'camping' tyres marketed specially for them?

 

Does everybody pay the windscreen price for a new motorhome, or what?

 

I doubt they do Peter, I never have. You see new and S/H motorhomes advertised all the time at a discount. It depends on what sort of deal you are going for, if I am buying with no part ex. I always go for a discount. If buying with a part ex I always state right from the start I will pay the screen price but haggle like mad on what I want for mine. I have never been able to see he point in trying to negotiate deals on both venicles, just complicates the process.

[Guest Peter James]

euroserv - 2010-10-26 5:14 PM

 

I dunno about that Martyn;

 

I think it would be a pretty poor salesman that can't close the deal in under 2 hours when the customer is so desperate to buy!

 

Nick

 

Perhaps he was still upselling them to a more expensive model, and adding on extras?

[LordThornber]

rupert123 - 2010-10-27 11:05 AM

It depends on what sort of deal you are going for, if I am buying with no part ex. I always go for a discount. If buying with a part ex I always state right from the start I will pay the screen price but haggle like mad on what I want for mine. I have never been able to see he point in trying to negotiate deals on both venicles, just complicates the process.

 

I agree with Henry, on our last motorhome purchase we explained we were happy to pay the screen price, providing the part ex offer was good. We hardly had to haggle, just the usual cycle rack and mudflaps to finish it off.

 

Last car purchase though was a particular blinder. We'd received a fair offer for our old Volvo against a new Suzuki. I phoned another dealer and he doubled the offer without viewing. I let the first dealer know about it and he said he couldn't match it.

 

No problem, thankyou for your time and we started to leave the office. Hang on he says, gimme the proverbial minute.

 

Back he comes 10 mins later, saying that if he agrees the deal, they'll make, (this is true) £15 out of the deal. I offered my hand and said make your mind up, putting the ball in his court.

 

He took it.

 

Make deals - not friends.

 

Martyn

[Guest Peter James]

rupert123 - 2010-10-27 11:05 AM

 

Peter James - 2010-10-27 9:37 AM

 

tazdog6007 - 2010-10-26 2:24 PM

my last camper a burstner had a trade in price of £13000 on the front a week later "£29.500!

 

(Would be interesting to name the dealer and let them have their say.)

 

What I find so incredible is that when buying new cars or vans the main topic of conversation is discounts. (For instance, when I wanted a new X250 maxi van to convert, I did a quick google search, got one from a franchised dealer for £17,200 with a RRP of over £29,000 including the extras fitted) No one seems to expect to pay the windscreen price for a van. With larger commercials the manufacturers don't even have a RRP because fleet buyers would just laugh at it. Everything depends on what they can negotiate. But when it comes to motorhomes I have never even seen discounts mentioned.

Are all motorhomers gullible 'You Get What You Pay For' suckers paying over the top for 'camping' tyres marketed specially for them?

 

Does everybody pay the windscreen price for a new motorhome, or what?

 

I doubt they do Peter, I never have. You see new and S/H motorhomes advertised all the time at a discount. It depends on what sort of deal you are going for, if I am buying with no part ex. I always go for a discount. If buying with a part ex I always state right from the start I will pay the screen price but haggle like mad on what I want for mine. I have never been able to see he point in trying to negotiate deals on both venicles, just complicates the process.

 

Thanks for the reply. I have no personal experience because I have never bought a new motorhome, just new cars and commercials. It was just that I have seen discounts on new cars and commercials (including motorhome base vehicles) much more widely advertised than any discounts on new motorhomes.

[Guest Peter James]

LordThornber - 2010-10-27 11:30 AM

 

rupert123 - 2010-10-27 11:05 AM

It depends on what sort of deal you are going for, if I am buying with no part ex. I always go for a discount. If buying with a part ex I always state right from the start I will pay the screen price but haggle like mad on what I want for mine. I have never been able to see he point in trying to negotiate deals on both venicles, just complicates the process.

 

I agree with Henry, on our last motorhome purchase we explained we were happy to pay the screen price, providing the part ex offer was good. We hardly had to haggle, just the usual cycle rack and mudflaps to finish it off.

 

Last car purchase though was a particular blinder. We'd received a fair offer for our old Volvo against a new Suzuki. I phoned another dealer and he doubled the offer without viewing. I let the first dealer know about it and he said he couldn't match it.

 

No problem, thankyou for your time and we started to leave the office. Hang on he says, gimme the proverbial minute.

 

Back he comes 10 mins later, saying that if he agrees the deal, they'll make, (this is true) £15 out of the deal. I offered my hand and said make your mind up, putting the ball in his court.

 

He took it.

 

Make deals - not friends.

 

Martyn

 

What I found with the base vehicles was that some dealers could get 'unallocated stock' - vehicles which the manufacturer had sitting around and gave a special deal on, charging less to the dealer than a factory order. I got one of these that had extras fitted then cancelled. On top of that the salesman was desperate to get new registrations before the end of July to meet his quota. My local dealer couldn't get anywhere near this price, because he could only find a new factory order, which couldn't be registered before the end of July deadline.

[flicka]

I accept Stormy's post, but as Buyers you need to keep control of the situation, something most are unable to sustain.

Being in control may result in walking away at the end of the day, but so be it, there is always another dealer/van out there. It's your hard earned money & should be treated as such.

Set your budget and DO NOT exceed it, even if the deal feels right. It should be an exceptional opportunity with a layout that matches ALL your Priority requirements & the vast majority of "Would likes"before exceeding your pre-determined limit.

As a Buyer by profession until retiring last year, I am perhaps more aware of "Sales" tactics than most & how to turn them around to MY advantage.

BUT I am unwilling to post them on an open forum, which can be monitored by them Sales folk. :D :D

 

Edited to add -Regarding the comments regarding "Screen / List Prices" for Motorhomes, I have yet to talk to anyone who as actually paid the Dealer's List price, except for one Private Sale & that was for a very specific Motorhome.

So, yes IMO discounts (in what ever form) are the norm, not occasional.

[tazdog6007]

Wow!what a responce! the quote of £13000 trade in on my machine,was the old:get them on the back foot routine so as to start neg.at the lowest level possible.the point i was makeing is that every customer is a sucker its merely to what degree.only when i stated i had X to spend and no more did things proceed at a sensible level.after fifteen cars and five m/homes i hate having my intelligence insulted.thats all.And those lenses are not a fiat product so are open to the motor industry et.al.rapido or the dealer,someone is still ripping us off

[Brian Kirby]

So, what then, is a rip-off?

[euroserv]

Nice one; Brian,

 

I think a rip off is when we (the British) are having to pay considerably more for a commodity that is valued on an international level than residents of other countries.

 

Fuel. That is a good example.

 

Why are the Americans still paying less than half of what we pay?

 

Because they won't pay any more. It's as simple as that. We are suckers, so that makes our government (whatever colour flag they fly) the greatest salesmen of all.

 

Here is another good one for you.....

 

If you look at the list price for a new Astra 2.0 SRi Diesel and a 2.0SRi Insignia Diesel you find that there is less than £1000 between them. Does that make the Insignia great value or the Astra a rip off?

 

The answer is neither because if you buy either at one year old and with negligible mileage they will both be less than £10,000

 

Who loses £12,000 in one year?

 

Nobody does.

 

The companies that bought them originally paid about £13,000 for them and any private buyer that was daft enough to pay list will not be selling it so soon.

 

The moral of the story is that you must study the marketplace before you buy anything that either can be discounted or suffers from depreciation. Only the biggest players in any market can afford to buy new things because thier buying power brings discounts and therefore dictates the value of the used market.

 

If there were no big discounts for anybody, would everybody pay a higher price? Not at all. The list price would be reduced to a point where the market found it acceptable.

 

The prices of cars have risen exponentially in the last year or so not so much because of fluctuations in currency or the cost of manufacture but because big firms still want 40% discounts and to maintain strained profit margins, list prices have to increase by much more than would seem necessary. So too have commercial vehicle prices.

 

And that, for us all; is a rip off.

 

That concludes Nick's Wednesday essay.

 

 

[euroserv]

tazdog6007 - 2010-10-27 2:51 PM

 

Wow!what a responce! the quote of £13000 trade in on my machine,was the old:get them on the back foot routine so as to start neg.at the lowest level possible.the point i was makeing is that every customer is a sucker its merely to what degree.only when i stated i had X to spend and no more did things proceed at a sensible level.after fifteen cars and five m/homes i hate having my intelligence insulted.thats all.And those lenses are not a fiat product so are open to the motor industry et.al.rapido or the dealer,someone is still ripping us off

 

I doubt this is quite true. Although I have not closely examined the lens in question it was probably made by Hella or Carrello for Fiat, to Fiat's design. For at least the first three years after it is first made, and possibly longer, Fiat will own the design rights to the item and the manufacturer will not be allowed to sell it to anyone else.

 

However; because any Tom, Dick or Harry can go to a Fiat dealer and buy one, you will get coachbuilders buying them and incorporating them into their designs. In the same way the rear lamps from Iveco Daily's and Fiat Ducato's are often grafted onto the back of coachbuilts and I am certain that permission would not have been sought by whoever decided to do it.

 

In this case it seems highly likely that Rapido did in fact buy a load of these lights from a Fiat agent and are selling them for whatever anybody is prepared to pay. I guess this is just commerce. I don't like it very much but how many of us would refuse the opportunity to buy something for a fiver and then put it on auction on ebay for whatever some late night drunk wanted to bid? Just an example.

 

Nick