A frame towing - again

[Meadows Engine]

In MMM October letters a letter from Tow-bars 2 Tow Cars Ltd disagreed with Brian Kirby,s conclusion that the only legal way to traverse Europe was with your car on a Trailer rather than an A frame

 

They seemed to suggest that their frame an electronic braked system got round / satisfied all the legal requirements making towing a car with that frame legal and OK in all countries .

 

Is this the experience of users and does this now leave us free us to tow our cars in this country and Europe without fear of prosecution.

 

[Porky]

Have a look at this recent thread. It might still be questionable.

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=21365&posts=14

[Brian Kirby]

But that was not my actual conclusion.  Paraphrasing, what I said was that compliance with UK law is "grey", making the demonstrable legality of an "A" frame outside UK dubious (and even within UK - see the DfT opinion, which is only that they "believe" A frames can comply).  I went on to say that under the circumstances, if towing abroad, a trailer was probably the best solution for peace of mind.  It is impossible to make categorical statements in the absence of all the necessary information, part of which would be the result of a UK court test case.

Tow-Bars 2 Tow-Cars believe they have "cracked it", but their website, presumably for (entirely reasonable) commercial reasons, is a bit cagey as to exactly how.  The best advice, therefore, is to ask them all the relevant questions, and to be satisfied that their answers stack up and have credible documentary support, before buying.

[Clive]

Page 15 of the November C&C magazine gives an update on the legal situation.

In summary its not sorted yet but the electric solution stands a chance of being accepted.

 

C.

 

[AlanYoung]

Spoke with another motorhomer in Calpe, Spain a week ago who was towing a Citroen C1 behind their Bessacar on an A-Frame. I have recently purchased a Smart Car to tow, so was keen to get their views on the legality, etc. They told me that it is now legal in France & A-frames can be purchased there, can anyone else confirm this?

[flicka]

Gee

There's so many threads in different areas of the forum, on the go regarding this subject, don't know which I'm posting on. >:-(

Does anyone use the search. (?)

[Derek Uzzell]

AlanYoung - 2010-10-26 10:31 PM

 

Spoke with another motorhomer in Calpe, Spain a week ago who was towing a Citroen C1 behind their Bessacar on an A-Frame. I have recently purchased a Smart Car to tow, so was keen to get their views on the legality, etc. They told me that it is now legal in France & A-frames can be purchased there, can anyone else confirm this?

 

 

It has been well publicized on UK forums that the French company “Jattel” has managed to get over-run-braking A-frames through the French homologation process.

 

Jattel sells Car-a-Tow products in France and there’s another Car-a-Tow off-shoot marketing these A-frames in Holland

 

There’s a longish legal ‘document’ on the Jattel website

 

http://www.jattel.com

 

that seeks to argue that, as a result of the towing technique having been ‘approved’ in one EU country, it automatically becomes legally acceptable in all other EU countries, overriding any ‘native’ laws an EU country (eg. France) might have that forbids use of that technique.

 

Counteracting the Jattel argument is a statement that was published in most French motorcaravan magazines in Spring 2010, originating from the office of the President of L’Uni-Vdl (a French syndicate of companies constructing and importing leisure-vehicles).

 

This statement cites Article R311-1 of the French Code de la Route that defines exactly what a motor vehicle is allowed to tow. The definition makes it clear that only motor-vehicle+TRAILER combinations are legally permissible. Consequently, L’Uni-Vdl advises that, to legally tow a car in France behind a motorhome, the car must be carried on a trailer approved for that purpose and (except in emergencies) never be towed on its wheels.

 

I’m pretty sure that the L’Uni-Vdl warning resulted from the Jattel initiative in France and I THINK it only addresses car-towing by French-registered motorcaravans.

 

Unsurprisingly, there has been discussion about this issue on French motorhome-related websites and I was tempted to respond when I saw a categoric statement on a French forum that the UK was the only EU country where A-frame towing was legal. Eventually I decided not to, as it was just too much of a challenge to attempt to explain (with a straight face!) the now-it’s-a-car/now-it’s-a-trailer philosophy that UK A-framers adore.

[Derek Uzzell]

flicka - 2010-10-26 11:08 PM

 

Gee

There's so many threads in different areas of the forum, on the go regarding this subject, don't know which I'm posting on. >:-(

Does anyone use the search. (?)

 

The forum's SEARCH facility is reasonably useful nowadays.

 

For previous stuff on A-frames, I suggest you try a combination of

 

A-frame

Derek Uzzell

All posts

 

I think that would get a thick slice of earlier discussions, but you could also try altering the "Filter by author" field from Derek Uzzell to Brian Kirby or Mel E which should pick up the rest.

 

For Jattel-related threads, try SEARCHing on

 

jattel

(blank)

All posts

 

[Meadows Engine]

Many thanks for all your advice I will look back at past posts as suggested, but brought this up again to see if the situation had changed after reading the CC letter.

 

thanks again for putting it in perspective

 

john

[Guest JudgeMental]

We are so glad that we decided to go down the electric bike route instead! :D

[david lloyd]

But as I understand the article that Clive refers to above (Page 15 of November issue of C&CC magazine) on the new european legislation on the way for 2014, it will clarify the position by NOT allowing overrun braking systems (which A-frames such as the Car-A-Tow version use) to be used on anything other than centre axle trailers such as caravans. This would rule out cars being towed on all four wheels.

 

It goes on to say that VOSA has yet to decide how to implement the regulation into UK legislation but it is anticipated that other types of braking systems, such as electrical systems, will be able to meet the regulation requirements.

 

David

[Derek Uzzell]

I notice on a "Hints & Tips" towing-related thread

 

HTTP://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=21365&posts=15

 

that Brian Kirby has stirred 'trailer ABS, if present, must work during towing' into the mix. This criterion, if applicable to car A-frame towing (and I can't see why it shouldn't be), seems like a real show-stopper.

 

Not sure I shall be able mentally to cope with the suspense of a 4-year wait to see if EU motorhome A-framing is finally banned or approved!!!

[flicka]

It's OK Derek, I had just posted on one of the other related threads, then saw this one was also underway. There have also been other threads very recently, two of which you had already "linked".

 

My post was more in frustration, than serious. :-(

As use of the Search, would have enabled all the information to be in ONE place.

[Brian Kirby]

Derek Uzzell - 2010-10-27 1:04 PM I notice on a "Hints & Tips" towing-related thread HTTP://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=21365&posts=15 that Brian Kirby has stirred 'trailer ABS, if present, must work during towing' into the mix. This criterion, if applicable to car A-frame towing (and I can't see why it shouldn't be), seems like a real show-stopper. Not sure I shall be able mentally to cope with the suspense of a 4-year wait to see if EU motorhome A-framing is finally banned or approved!!!

That was from the UNECE document, in which there was no single definition of a "trailer".  They, and possibly the EC directive - which I have not re-checked - identify a full trailer (4 wheels), a semi-trailer (as in articulated truck), and a single axle trailer (which can have two axles, so long as they are no more than 1 metre apart).

The reference to ABS was common to full, and I think, semi, trailers, and appeared to me to say that if fitted, it must work, without further intervention, via the tow vehicle's brakes.  This seems logical enough when considering commercial vehicle trailers, since with ABS there is usually no load sensing equipment, so if it were disabled, lock-ups on braking would become a real risk.

It therefore seemed that a towed car, having two axles more than one metre apart, would become a "full trailer" and so, unless the eventual legislation caters specifically for towed cars, if it has ABS, the ABS must work.

[Rayjsj]

WOW ! what a nasty can of worms. I have been considering towing our new Yaris on an 'A' frame, as my missus is disabled and it's getting harder to park any where near the centre of towns with a M/H these days.

I have towed large heavy trailers single axle and twin axle as well as caravans, and in my humble opinion the closer the weight is to the ground the more stable the 'outfit' will be, (makes sense) so a car up on a smallish trailer is LESS stable than the same car down on it's wheels. And for me it's how safe the outfit is in the REAL world rather than the 'Ins and outs' of laws designed for much larger vehicles. Provided it brakes safely and tows steady (a LOT of caravans don't !!!) them i'm happy to tow with it.

I think I'll test drive an A-Frame before i buy one and get the car converted.

Ray ;-)

[ian81]

AlanYoung - 2010-10-26 11:31 PM

 

Spoke with another motorhomer in Calpe, Spain a week ago who was towing a Citroen C1 behind their Bessacar on an A-Frame. I have recently purchased a Smart Car to tow, so was keen to get their views on the legality, etc. They told me that it is now legal in France & A-frames can be purchased there, can anyone else confirm this?

 

This subject was covered earlier in the year on the French Fédération Française des Associations et Clubs de Camping-Cars:

http://www.ffaccc.fr/actualites-fiche/Tracter-une-automobile-derriere-son-camping-car-suite/00653 and

http://www.ffaccc.fr/actualites-fiche/Tracter-une-automobile-derriere-un-camping-car--est-ce-legal-/00652

 

Their conclusion seems pretty unequivocal.

[Rosbotham]

david lloyd - 2010-10-27 12:17 PM

 

But as I understand the article that Clive refers to above (Page 15 of November issue of C&CC magazine) on the new european legislation on the way for 2014, it will clarify the position by NOT allowing overrun braking systems (which A-frames such as the Car-A-Tow version use) to be used on anything other than centre axle trailers such as caravans. This would rule out cars being towed on all four wheels.

 

It goes on to say that VOSA has yet to decide how to implement the regulation into UK legislation but it is anticipated that other types of braking systems, such as electrical systems, will be able to meet the regulation requirements.

 

David

 

If the EU legislation is 2014, it takes approx 18 months to transpose into national law so realistically this is a 2016 issue. If you've got an over-run system, at that time simply disconnect the braking cable & buy a brake buddy (or equivalent). I'll worry about that in 5 years rather than now.

 

I would consider this a "done deal". From what I can see the draft text is to adopt the UNECE text. That's black & white, no scope for usage of over-run systems on a-framed cars. Doesn't seem to me that there's wriggle room to make exceptions for our application as the text of UNECE says what it says.

 

Paul

[flicka]

Clive

"Engineer, general bodger and Michelin star crepe maker. Plays with motorhomes, motorbikes and takes life so very seriously!!!"

 

Are the International payboy days over now then (?) :D

[Guest peter]

Not withstanding all the above. You still cannot reverse a car whilst attached to an A Frame.Which is still contrary to the Towing legislation.

But.......would you even want to try and reverse one on a trailer, with limited rearward visibility. I certainly wouldn't.

So the arguments re A Frame versus Trailer is purely academic as far as I'm concerned and I will be getting one in the not too distance future.

[catinou]

peter - 2010-10-27 10:23 PM

 

Not withstanding all the above. You still cannot reverse a car whilst attached to an A Frame.Which is still contrary to the Towing legislation.

But.......would you even want to try and reverse one on a trailer, with limited rearward visibility. I certainly wouldn't.

So the arguments re A Frame versus Trailer is purely academic as far as I'm concerned and I will be getting one in the not too distance future.

Absolutely agree Peter ;-) We have only got into one "sticky moment" with our last motorhome, which had "the judder" >:-( and we had a problem on a hill start on a small road - simply dealt with - a couple of minutes and the Smart car was detached and driven alone to the site and the MH juddered up the hill (just!). It is so simple to put together and take apart. We also use a brake buddy to make sure the Smart's brakes work when needed too when towing.

 

We have been "watched" then waved at by police in at least 6 European companies and had discussions with pedestrians at traffic lights who wanted to know how it works and a German coach driver who said it is legal in Germany for UK registered vehicles as it is legal in our country....

 

;-) Towtal sorted ours out and they have several outlets in Europe - including France so it may be worth talking to Bill or his son Will about it if you want any queries answered.

[david lloyd]

peter - 2010-10-27 10:23 PM

 

Not withstanding all the above. You still cannot reverse a car whilst attached to an A Frame.Which is still contrary to the Towing legislation.

But.......would you even want to try and reverse one on a trailer, with limited rearward visibility. I certainly wouldn't.

So the arguments re A Frame versus Trailer is purely academic as far as I'm concerned and I will be getting one in the not too distance future.

 

Sorry Peter, but (even though we don't use an A-frame now) I have said on this and other forums before that it is possible to reverse a car on an A-frame. I have successfully reversed a Yaris on a Car-A-Tow A-frame on several occasions. Slow speed, small corrections and vigilance seem to be the key.

 

David

[Mike B.]

I tow our C1 on a towbars-to towcars system and it brakes, handles well and reverses (albeit slowly) without any problems whatsoever.

Unlike the bike trailer which I reversed, forgot about the anchor arm and smashed my back light and bumper!

In future, I'll take it off!!!

Mike

[Derek Uzzell]

It is, of course, perfectly possible to reverse a car on an A-frame as long as you are prepared to define "reverse" to suit yourself. Does it mean "going backwards for a few millimetres" or "going backwards for an unlimited distance"? Does it mean "only on the flat or on very gentle slopes", or "on any slope likely to be encountered on the road"? Is the reversing just to be in a straight line or round any corners likely to be encountered?

 

Try selling a 4-wheel over-run-braked trailer to Bob the Builder, telling him that he can't reverse up steep slopes because the trailer's brakes would come on, or that reversing the trailer round tight corners would cause its castoring front wheels to end up pointing in cock-eyed directions. Yeah, right...!!

[david lloyd]

I wanna tell ya story..........................

 

Back in 2005, after collecting a new van from South Yorkshire Motorhomes near Dinnington we hitched the Yaris on its A-Frame and towed it, for the very first time, to the Riverside Caravan Park at Worksop that the dealer had kindly booked for us to overnight at so we could check everything out.

 

I was really pleased with the way the car towed - albeit decided to have a rear view camera fitted at the earliest opportunity as there was not much of a view of the car in the wing mirrors

 

For anyone who has visited the little Riverside site at Worksop you will know that the entry road passes the cricket field and as it does so there is a rather small, narrow hump backed bridge that is situated on an 'S' bend.

 

More nervous than confident I approached the bridge and gave it as wide a berth as I could to ensure the car (which on a tow frame doesn't follow the tracks of the towing vehicle) cleared the (very unforgiving) stone walls.

 

That manouvre forgotten we settled in for the night and passed the evening away testing this, that and the other - as you do.

 

Next morning, watched by curious caravanners, I hitched the car and we set off in a happy frame of mind having had a good nights sleep and found nothing wanting on the shiny new van. Maybe it was these thoughts that led me to momentarily forget about the tight bends on the approaching bridge but I was on it before I realised and soon came to the conclusion that the car was not going to make it through the tight curves! It was my fault as I had not been concentrating enough to give the wide berth necessary to get through but, undeterred, I decided to reverse off the bridge despite being positioned at a near 90 degree angle and back up a little ways to be able to pull right over to my left and approach the bridge again.

 

Now here, I have to confess, that I have driven 38 tonne artics in some very narrow places before so I was perhaps a tad more confident. Very slowly, using small, smooth corrections the car was reversed back off the bridge, straightened up and back still further until I could swing the whole outfit over to the left and get through the bridge.

 

From that time on we lived happily ever after with our tow frame, reversing on the odd occasion if needed but never having to perform anything as extreme again.

 

I have no connections with South Yorkshire Motorhomes, Riverside Caravan Park or Car-A-Tow other than as a satisfied customer - and no, we don't still use an A-frame as we moved to a panel van to give us the freedom we desired.

 

Happy towing.

 

David

[Rosbotham]

Derek Uzzell - 2010-10-29 9:32 AM

 

 

Try selling a 4-wheel over-run-braked trailer to Bob the Builder, telling him that he can't reverse up steep slopes because the trailer's brakes would come on, or that reversing the trailer round tight corners would cause its castoring front wheels to end up pointing in cock-eyed directions. Yeah, right...!!

 

True enough, but try reversing a car on a trailer with a motorhome with very substantial overhang behind the rear wheels. Move the steering wheel a millimetre and the trailer goes its own merry way. I've towed with both a trailer and a-frame, and have said this before but will repeat it : the perceived benefit of being able to reverse a trailer is illusory because in practise unless you're an ex-HGV driver, you can't realistically control where the trailer goes when reversing. Straight line, fine, anything else, I wish you luck.