Rear facing seats...legal?

[Heyloft]

The Dethleffs has two forward facing seats with 3point harnesses (ok no issue here), but it also has two rear facing seats with lap belts.

 

These lap belts and all fittings were installed at manufacture, but are they legal to use?

 

The V5 states only 4 passengers including driver.

[lennyhb]

Yes lap belts are legal on rear facing seats, weather you consider it safe to do so is another matter.

 

 

[Heyloft]

What about the fact that the V5 only states 4 seats (including driver) ??

 

Surely that would affect the insurance?

[lennyhb]

Blind to that bit when I read the post, if the V5 say 4 including driver then 4 it is. May be possible to get it changed but you would probably need a VOSA inspection to confirm the belt mountings meet the requirements.

 

 

[Mickydripin]

Your problem may Lie in the fact that your payload may not allow you to carry six passengers so four or six may be immaterial

[Heyloft]

 

But these were installed at manufacture. Dethleffs parts, serial numbers etc.. Built for the UK market (right hand drive)

 

I can apply for a inspection easily enough..... but it doesn't quite make sense.

[PJay]

Just looked on the V5C for our Swift Sundance 590RS.States 2 seat including Driver!! This is a 5 berth van, according to Swift and Marquis.

We have four seat belts, so would assume suitable for 4 passengers

Never noticed the 2 seat bit before We usually only have two of us in van, but maybe we should have the v5 changed? There was confusion at the time of purchase in 2006 with the DVLA over taxation class, due to I believe people trying to class vehicles as MH, when in fact they would be public service vehicles. (extra seating) Marquis had to have vans inspected by DVLA, before the road tax could be obtained.

I will ring Marquis an query the V5 Doc

PJay

[Derek Uzzell]

Assuming the Dethleffs motorhome is a reasonably recent model, if the lap-belted rear-facing seats are badged as 'designated travel seats', then they are legal to use.

 

The V5 information may, or may not, have been accurately input - you'd need to check the vehicle's Type-Approval Certificate of Conformity (CoC) to confirm this. As Dethleffs has fitted belts to all 4 rear seats, it's logical to assume these seats will have been intended for use during travel and, on that basis, that the motorhome's CoC should show seating for 6 persons.

 

 

[PJay]

Just rang Marquis re V5 form . They say that it is common to just put the number of cab seats only on the V5, so no need to bother to have it changed.

PJay

[tonyg3nwl]

Hi, Marquis dont make the rules, they only sell motorhomes. Personally I feel you must get it clarified by DVLA AND your insurer. Heaven forbid that you were involved in a fatal accident and it became clear that the rear facing passenger wasnt restrained adequately, I shudder to think where liability would lay. I beleive it is most likely the drivers resposibility to ensure passengers are safely carried.

 

If the rear facing seats are designated travelling seats you should be ok, To my mind the difficulty lies aroud the question as to who decides the seats are "designated" and whether they are accepted in law as being so designated. A can of worms if it all goes wrong.

 

tonyg3nwl

[Heyloft]

I will be checking with my insurance company.

 

However, ive just had conversations with Dethleffs in Germany and a UK motorhome dealer and the both confirm the following.

 

Rear facing seats and lap belts are legal to use and no further certification required as they were installed at manufacture. (this is not the case it seems for aftermarket fits even if OEM)

 

The V5 only shows the number of 3 point belts available and will not show the rear facing ones.

 

As far as I am concerned does the insurance company regognise them and am I covered to carry passengers in those seats?

 

I await their confirmation.

[Mickydripin]

My motorhome had got the same seats as yours with lap belts on the two rear facing seats and lap and diagonal on the two forward facing seats but due to the pay load it was imposible to carry six people.

Sorry to mention this again but it is the pay load that counts in the end.

You did not say what your payload was.

[Heyloft]

I'll check the payload too.

 

Presumably on the V5?

[Brian Kirby]

Heyloft - 2010-11-01 11:31 AM But these were installed at manufacture. Dethleffs parts, serial numbers etc.. Built for the UK market (right hand drive) I can apply for a inspection easily enough..... but it doesn't quite make sense.

The V5C details will have been supplied to DVLA by the dealer supplying the motorhome.  Dealers are not immune from making elementary errors.  I would suggest you take it up with them, and ask them to correct the information and get the V5C re-issued.

As things stand, even though there are 6 factory fit belted seats, if the V5C says 4, it is probable your insurer would say driver + 5 passengers = overload = no insurance.  I would check, but would definitely seek to get the V5C corrected, or the status of the seats clarified by Dethleffs UK.

[Brian Kirby]

Heyloft - 2010-11-01 2:20 PM I'll check the payload too. Presumably on the V5?

No, it is not, and depending on whether you have any extras or chassis options fitted to your van, may vary considerably from that quoted in Dethleffs literature.  The only figure in the V5C will be the MAM (may show as "revenue weight"): for example, 3,500Kg.  The payload is the difference between the kerbweight of the van and its MAM. 

The only way to establish its actual payload will be to take it to a weighbridge and get it weighed.  A builders' merchant who handles bulk goods, such as sand and ballast, should know the routine.  At the same time, I'd suggest noting, or getting recorded, the weight of each axle individually.  This is usually quite easy if you tell the operator what you want.  Usual procedure is to set the weighbridge up as though for a delivery.  You then drive the front only onto the platform, and he sets this as weight 1, you then advance all 4 (or however many) wheels onto the platform, and he takes this as weight 2.  The difference, which the weighbridge will calculate and enter on the "ticket", would normally be the weight of goods collected, but in your case will be the weight on the back axle.

Ideally, you should weigh the van with full gas cylinders, full fresh water tank, full fuel tank, and nothing else except yourself.  This means you have the worst case picture, in that as you consume fuel, water and gas, the vehicle will become lighter.  This safeguards you against accidental overload.

However, if you will be travelling with several passengers, and especially if you may be running close to the MAM, I would suggest weighing it as above, but with all likely passengers and any pets aboard and in their respective travel positions.  This will ensure you know how much latitude you really have on each axle.  It may not be much!

I would then, before you next set off anywhere, repeat the process with absolutely everything in the van, to be quite sure you are not overloaded.  Do be aware that there are individual load limits on each axle, which is the reason for checking each in turn.  An overloaded axle counts just as much, legally, as an overload of the whole vehicle.

[thebishbus]

Hi. On the V5C for our Hymer , the seating capacity is left blank. 8-)

Brian B.

[thebishbus]

Hi again .Just looked at my insurance, that does not mention number of people carried in the MH either. 8-)

Brian B.

[PJay]

thebishbus - 2010-11-01 4:54 PM

 

Hi. On the V5C for our Hymer , the seating capacity is left blank. 8-)

Brian B.

 

So it's a driverless vehicle then????

[PJay]

thebishbus - 2010-11-01 4:54 PM

 

Hi. On the V5C for our Hymer , the seating capacity is left blank. 8-)

Brian B.

 

So it's a driverless vehicle then????

[Mel B]

IMV regardless of what your V5 says, if your insurer has you down as a vehicle with 1 driver's seat and 2 passengers, and you carry 4, you are breaking your contract with them and in effect have no insurance. Whenever I've got insurance for our motorhomes, one of the questions is how may travel seats are there and that's the number they record on their records.

[colin]

May I point out why the rear facing seats don't have the diagonal strap, they don't need them! they are only needed on front facing seats to stop your upper body going forward, not likely to happen in a rear facing seat unless there was a massive rear shunt in which case most of the coachbuilt area would be matchwood.

p.s. are there head restraints on the rear facers? if not don't use them.

[Derek Uzzell]

There are rules that govern the specification and installation of 'travel seating' in motor caravans.

 

There are rules that govern how the information that ends up on a motor caravan's V5c is provided to the DVLA when the motor caravan is first registered in the UK.

 

There are rules that govern how people being transported in a motor caravan may legally be carried.

 

There are rules that relate to the weight of motor caravans.

 

Insurance providers have rules.

 

It's important to distinguish which rules are 'category specific' and which are not.

 

In this case, if the Type Approval Certificate of Conformity for Heyloft's Dethleffs has "4" (2 front/2 rear) in the Number of Seats section, then "4" seats on its V5C will be correct as far as the DVLA is concerned.

 

The vehicle actually has 6 belted-seats and these may be used to seat people according to the relevant UK regulations that govern such matters.

 

If carrying 6 sumo wrestlers causes the vehicle's weight limits to be exceeded, this doesn't affect the V5C and belted-seats issues.

 

Obviously, if you provide incorrect information to an insurance provider and an event occurs where the inaccuracy becomes important, then the provider may well take umbrage. In this instance, as the motor caravan has 6 factory-fitted belted seats that, presumably, conform to the regulations that cover seat design and installation, if an insurance provider asks how many 'travel seats' the motor caravan has and is told "6", there's no reason to anticipate future insurance-related problems just because the vehicle's V5C has "4" in the Number of Seats box.

[Heyloft]

Insurance company has confirmed that all 6 seats, including the 2 rear facing with lap belts are covered.

 

Legislation doesn't require seatbelts on rear facing seats.

 

So legal and insured. So all in all, job done, mind now at ease.

 

Derek, thanks for your input.

[art338]

OK but have the weights checked.

 

art