Renewable energy sources!

[smig65]

For the on-going electricity debate, I am not a devoted camper or own a motorhome/campervan but I'm interested on your views regarding the harnessing of electricty from wind.

Would a portable wind turbine which could trickle or top-up a battery pack or motorhome main battery help in this matter?

Yes the initail outlay of the device might be expensive but would this not surely be paid back over time as it helps with the demand for electricty, both while the motorhome is stationary or while in transport?

Ive seen that someone has posted regarding the installation of solar panals but these are renowned for being expensive wherever they are installed and with the UK not being blessed with massive amounts of sun then the payback will be long, whereas a wind turbine will more often than not be in use due to our climate.

Hope you can help in this matter.

 

David.

[Clive]

OK I will start.

All you suggest is correct. But most motorhomers and caravanners use their vehicles in the summer, many (like me) fleeing to the Med for even more warmth. The attractiveness of the roof mounted solar panel is that it is fit and forget. No setting up, no taking down and it works totally quietly even before you get out of bed if you had too much wine the previous evening.

 

Wind generators - Fantastic little units from Marlec Engineering for example (Rutland) require mounting somewhere high. They do tend to rumble a bit which could affect sleep paterns. Most popular users are boaties. The UK is the windiest country in Europe.

 

Motorhoming is not a way to save money,if you want solar then using the same arguement you used to justify the motorhome normally works.

 

On larger wind farms. I have an interest in a wind farm near Swindon, privately owned by a local co-operative. Five turbines each capable of 1.3 megawatts. (West Mill ) In less than a year of running it had saved all the carbon generated in the turbines manufacture, shipping and errection and paid a small dividend.

Can't be bad?

 

C.

 

 

[747]

I have one of the small Marlec models that Clive mentioned, a Rutland 504. Most turbines have a reputation for being noisy. The 504 only gives off a very low humming noise in a gale force wind but I believe Clive is correct otherwise. I only know of one other motorhomer who has the bigger Rutland 913. This is capable of delivering 20 amps in favourable conditions.

 

I have a free standing 5 metre mast which is no hardship to put up. I am however a retired Engineer and maybe I just cannot let go. :D

 

Initially, I was disappointed with the 504 and have been thinking about building my own turbine as there is nothing really suitable on the market. A lot of people who bought wind turbines quickly got disillusioned with them. I am now reasonably happy with mine. The 913 ticks most boxes and I have plenty of room to store it but for the same price, I could have bought 2 big solar panels and regulator.

 

We wildcamp all year round and I have a 90 watt solar panel as well as the turbine. We normally head for the coast and that is why I wanted a wind option, as the wind is usually stronger and 'cleaner'.

 

Solar panels are coming down in price but there is no sign of that with wind turbines. I believe that there is room for price reduction in the wind turbine market as there is not a lot to them and the research and development costs should be minimal.

 

Can I ask the reason for your query? There is a gap in the market for a small reliable wind generator capable of a maximum of 120 to 150 watts output. This should give a reasonable charging rate in light to medium windspeeds.

[rupert123]

Unfortunatly windmills are not practical on a m/h for the reasons Clive has laid out. Unfortunatly they are no better at saving the planet, they remain a very inefficient way of providing electricity. Clives view is one often given by any interested party but the only ones who gain anything are the ones who build them. Because they only work on average just over 200 days a year and their is no way to store the electricity they produce you still need the same numbers of power stations, so no saving in emissions.

[colin]

rupert123 - 2010-11-01 5:02 PM

Because they only work on average just over 200 days a year and their is no way to store the electricity they produce you still need the same numbers of power stations, so no saving in emissions.

 

Why would you want to store the energy? We have a national grid system in this country, when wind turbines produce little power then other power stations come on line, as the wind turbines produce more power then the other stations go off line reducing emmissions, this is not even something new it has worked for decades.

[747]

colin - 2010-11-01 7:41 PM

 

rupert123 - 2010-11-01 5:02 PM

Because they only work on average just over 200 days a year and their is no way to store the electricity they produce you still need the same numbers of power stations, so no saving in emissions.

 

Why would you want to store the energy? We have a national grid system in this country, when wind turbines produce little power then other power stations come on line, as the wind turbines produce more power then the other stations go off line reducing emmissions, this is not even something new it has worked for decades.

 

Just ignore Ruperts comments. He is from Wales. On my AA map it says Bedgellert - `ere be Dragons. :D

[rupert123]

colin - 2010-11-01 7:41 PM

 

rupert123 - 2010-11-01 5:02 PM

Because they only work on average just over 200 days a year and their is no way to store the electricity they produce you still need the same numbers of power stations, so no saving in emissions.

 

Why would you want to store the energy? We have a national grid system in this country, when wind turbines produce little power then other power stations come on line, as the wind turbines produce more power then the other stations go off line reducing emmissions, this is not even something new it has worked for decades.

 

Not true I am afraid, wind turbines never produce enough power to take even one power station off line and even if they could you cannot simply shut a turbine down. I worked on feasibilty studies in the 1970's for these useless waste of money things. It has never worked and never will ask any power station engineer. Apart from anything else they are a terrible visual polutant. I am unwilling to start an argument about them just go away and look at some facts. If the government stopped throwing money at the builders and power companies they would all cease working tommorrow.

[colin]

rupert123 - 2010-11-01 5:02 PM

Because they only work on average just over 200 days a year and their is no way to store the electricity they produce you still need the same numbers of power stations, so no saving in emissions.

 

Don't need to look at any facts, this statement shows a complete lack of understanding of how the generating system works in this country. BTW my grandfather worked for CEGB, my uncle worked for Eskom, and I have done some work on experimental wind generators, and no I don't think wind turbines are the answer to all our energy needs, they are just part of the system.

[Clive]

"they are just part of the system"

Thats correct. Wind turbines are much larger per KWH generated than any wave powered machine but the hostile environment for wave power makes it much more expensive to build and maintain than wind.

 

I guess that a combination of Nuclear, wind, hydro-electric is probably the best we could aspire to.

 

C.

 

 

[Syd]

Off topic but simply to confirm Clives statement that PV panels are getting cheaper, last year I looked into filling our roof with these and settled on a price of just over £13,000.

Other commitments, long holiday, stopped me going ahead at that time but have contacted the company again today and was told that there has been quiet a large reduction in the cost and was then quoted £9,600

 

Might wait a bit longer now

[Guest peter]

As I understand it, the o/p only wanted to know if anyone thought that a wind turbine would be feasable to charge the batteries on a m/h. He didn't want to power the bloody national grid. So I don't see what Rupert is getting his knickers in a twist about. :D

[colin]

Back to OP original question, IMO wind generators are not that good for MH's when static, and definatly no good whilst moving, as all you are doing is burning extra deisel to generate the power.

Most of these small generators seem to date back a few years in design, I'm not sure if there are any more modern ones that are more efficient, but even then I think they would be not much use.

FYI back in the 'dark ages' of 70s and 80s some truly bad designs of wind turbines where around, the most notorious being the large one in Orkneys, every kw/h must have cost tens of pounds if not hundreds before it was scrapped.

[Brian Kirby]

peter - 2010-11-01 10:26 PM As I understand it, the o/p only wanted to know if anyone thought that a wind turbine would be feasable to charge the batteries on a m/h. He didn't want to power the bloody national grid. So I don't see what Rupert is getting his knickers in a twist about. :D

Well done that man!

As to wind turbines on motorhomes, not really.  Consider.  When in motion the vehicle alternator does the job better, and I'd guess, with greater efficiency.  So turbine now just for when static.

So, first the van needs to be static, then it needs to be in use, since otherwise, although the electricity is generated at no cost in fuel, once the battery is fully charged, the electricity is of no benefit.

Many of us use our vans in summer, and far less, if at all, in winter.  UK is windy, but is generally windiest in winter, when many vans are not in use.

Then, many of us take our vans abroad, where it is not so windy.  So, maximum period of use coincides with least available wind.

What you have is a perfectly capable generator that will spend most of its time generating useless electricity, or none at all.  Oh yes, and you'll have to carry it with you, so added weight and lost storage space, and set it up on arrival, so wasted (in relationship to its true usefulness) time.

Would such a generator ever pay for itself, in either cash, energy produced, or carbon saved?  I'm prepared to be persuaded by some proper calculations, but in the meantime, mark me down as deeply sceptical.  Sorry.  :-)

[747]

I cannot really fault your logic Brian but I have found the wind generator to be invaluable at times. It is apparent that I am in a minority as I wildcamp in Winter when a solar panel is less useful. In fact I know I am in a minority as I often have the wild places to myself.

 

If I was forced to use campsites off season, then I would sell the van. I think some of you lot would be better off with a caravan. Or, why not go the whole hog and buy a chalet on a campsite. That seems the way some of the clubs and sites are heading.

 

Up to now, I have never made any bad comments about what others do with their vans. I am sorely tempted to now though after some of the comments on this thread.

 

Not only will I stick with the wind generator, if I cannot purchase a better one then I will make my own. It will not matter to you lot if it is noisy as you will either be huddled together on a Club site with all mod cons or squashed together on a strip of land in Europe for the winter.

[rupert123]

colin - 2010-11-01 9:45 PM

 

rupert123 - 2010-11-01 5:02 PM

Because they only work on average just over 200 days a year and their is no way to store the electricity they produce you still need the same numbers of power stations, so no saving in emissions.

 

Don't need to look at any facts, this statement shows a complete lack of understanding of how the generating system works in this country. BTW my grandfather worked for CEGB, my uncle worked for Eskom, and I have done some work on experimental wind generators, and no I don't think wind turbines are the answer to all our energy needs, they are just part of the system.

 

As I said go away and check before you talk nonsense.

[rupert123]

peter - 2010-11-01 10:26 PM

 

As I understand it, the o/p only wanted to know if anyone thought that a wind turbine would be feasable to charge the batteries on a m/h. He didn't want to power the bloody national grid. So I don't see what Rupert is getting his knickers in a twist about. :D

 

You are quite right Peter, sorry about that guess it was Clive doing his green bit that set me of. I just hate these things, the big ones, and know what a waste of money they are.

[Brian Kirby]

747 - 2010-11-01 11:49 PM I cannot really fault your logic Brian but I have found the wind generator to be invaluable at times. It is apparent that I am in a minority as I wildcamp in Winter when a solar panel is less useful. In fact I know I am in a minority as I often have the wild places to myself. If I was forced to use campsites off season, then I would sell the van. I think some of you lot would be better off with a caravan. Or, why not go the whole hog and buy a chalet on a campsite. That seems the way some of the clubs and sites are heading. Up to now, I have never made any bad comments about what others do with their vans. I am sorely tempted to now though after some of the comments on this thread. Not only will I stick with the wind generator, if I cannot purchase a better one then I will make my own. It will not matter to you lot if it is noisy as you will either be huddled together on a Club site with all mod cons or squashed together on a strip of land in Europe for the winter.

Nothing I said, I hope, Jim.  I have to say, though, that I can't see any derogatory comments aimed at you, or your motorhoming choices.  There was a big misunderstanding initially over whether the subject was wind turbines in general, or wind turbines for use by motorhomers but, as my old schoolteacher always used to say, always read the question!  :-)

Clearly you are in a minority who benefit from wind turbine use.  Nevertheless, whether you, and all those others who use their motorhomes in similar ways, could really become the basis for what the OP seemed to be implying, which I read as a bit of niche marketing, I somehow doubt.

Despite all the above, I apologise if anything I said caused offence. To clarify, my comments were aimed at purely wind turbines, not their users, and certainly not at any one user in particular.

[747]

Don`t worry Brian, there was nothing in your post that was in any way offensive, I only wish others would follow your example.

 

The wind turbine itself is a handy bit of kit. The real problem lies with its deployment (and storage in some cases).

 

It needs to be as high as possible and clear of any obstructions. The vehicle being the main one. I have racked my feeble brain for a quick and easy method of setting up the turbine. In reality, I can do it in a few minutes but I do need the help of a second person if it is windy. Once I get a couple of guy ropes set, I can do the rest myself.

 

The turbine itself weighs very little (a few kilograms). My 4 poles weigh about the same again. I carry a small garden trowel (necessary for digging a very small hole, as I have a screw in fitting for the mast). Four pieces of 20 mm steel angle (as anchors for the guy ropes) and a 4 lb hammer to knock them in with. On a m/home with a 5 ton MAM, I do not think my fuel figures will be adversely affected. :-D

 

This might be construed as unnecessary extra work by some but it gives me the ability to be self sufficient in areas where you cannot put a price on the view and tranquility (whatever the weather throws at you :D ).

[yeti]

I also looked into the possibilities when I was modernising a remote cottage in Wales. Wind power in combination with a panel or three was the most suitable solution. The turbine WAS noisy and I positioned it on a mast some distance from the property. It worked find until one of the 'Sons of Glyndwr' nicked it.

Anyway Maplins are selling a slimline vertical windmill for about £80 which is claimed to be quiet and sufficient for a motorhome. The model indicated can be placed on a vehicles roof but it WILL be noisy!

THey still need to be placed on a mast to gain any benefit

[lennyhb]

I looked at the Maplin one when you look at the spec it needs a Force 5 before it's starts producing any power and a gale for full output, it is cheap though. So I think me is going the solar route.

[Basil]

yeti - 2010-11-02 12:47 PM

 

Anyway Maplins are selling a slimline vertical windmill for about £80 which is claimed to be quiet and sufficient for a motorhome. The model indicated can be placed on a vehicles roof but it WILL be noisy!

THey still need to be placed on a mast to gain any benefit

 

Hi could you point me in the direction of this £80 wind generator as the only one that I can find that resembles your description is £179.99.

 

At £80 I would give one a try but not at the higher price.

 

Thanks Bas

[747]

Hi Bas,

 

If I were you, I would not bother. it is rated at 50 watt output.

 

My Rutland is rated at 80 watts but gives nothing near that unless there is a full gale blowing. I reckon it is equivalent to a 40 watt solar panel. That would make the Maplin one equivalent to 25 watt.

 

Have a look on ebay for a used one like mine. Some people even give them away. :-S

[lennyhb]

Basil - 2010-11-02 7:00 PM

 

yeti - 2010-11-02 12:47 PM

 

Anyway Maplins are selling a slimline vertical windmill for about £80 which is claimed to be quiet and sufficient for a motorhome. The model indicated can be placed on a vehicles roof but it WILL be noisy!

THey still need to be placed on a mast to gain any benefit

 

Hi could you point me in the direction of this £80 wind generator as the only one that I can find that resembles your description is £179.99.

 

At £80 I would give one a try but not at the higher price.

 

Thanks Bas

 

I think Yeti may have done a typo the £180 one is the only vertical one Maplins do.

At 180 quid I was going to give it a go but after seeing how much wind was needed to get it going I had second thoughts as the advantage of wind power is you get output 24 hours a day against solar only during daylight hours. Often the wind dies down at night so there goes the advantage.

 

Even the Forgen one at 400 quid needs a force 5 to get a 1 Amp output & force 8 (gale force) to get 1.4 Amps.

So parked on the top of a cliff in a hurricane you may get a decent charge rate that's if the van hasn't blown over.

 

It's a shame as the vertical turbine is a neat solution but they need to be more efficient at low wind speeds.

[Basil]

Thanks for the advice 747 and Lenny, thought it might be worth a try at £80 but I will take your advice.

 

Bas

[Guest peter]

rupert123 - 2010-11-01 11:57 PM

 

peter - 2010-11-01 10:26 PM

 

As I understand it, the o/p only wanted to know if anyone thought that a wind turbine would be feasable to charge the batteries on a m/h. He didn't want to power the bloody national grid. So I don't see what Rupert is getting his knickers in a twist about. :D

 

You are quite right Peter, sorry about that guess it was Clive doing his green bit that set me of. I just hate these things, the big ones, and know what a waste of money they are.

I happen to agree with you Rupert.I wonder what the projected payback period is for the grid owned ones is? never I suspect.