Injector Pump - Fiat Ducato 2.3

[Timetraveller]

Help - My Avondale Seascape 5ELX on a Fiat Ducato 2.3 Chasis suddenly stopped as soon as I had got it off the drive. I'm not mechanically minded but, of course, I know a man who is. So after the breakdown man had had an unsuccessful look around; it was taken to my local garage who have looked after all my mechanical problems over the last 30+ years (cars & motorhomes). However they have just contacted me to say that it is the 'Injecter Pump' that has caused the breakdown & they don't repair these & that they are arranging to have my motorhome taken over to Nottingham (30 odd miles away) to a company they use for this work. This is sounding seriously expensive. Can anyone throw any light on to this problem? Do these pumps breakdown often? How big a job time wise is it? & are we going to face a massive bill???

Thanks in anticipation of your help :'(

[dikyenfo]

These pumps run in the fuel for lub. and modern diesel is crap at this. It happenned to me on the Iveco and it usually means the injectors are shot as well. Cost is an arm and leg so get some cocaine and prepare to be shocked. In future do what the trade does and use additive for lub and also a cetane additive also Merc and others use 2-stroke mix as well. I get mine from United Diesel and I know all the people who disagree will be along i9n a minute but having paid out 3 grand I dont intend to get caught again just for the sake of a bit of common sense. I hope I'm wrong and it is OK .

[Brian Kirby]

What year is the van?  Is there any chance it is still under any kind of warranty?  These pumps are usually reliable.  There are thousands of common rail diesel cars and vans circulating all over Europe, and the incidence of failure is not significant.

Could you have bought contaminated fuel?  If there is any indication the fault has been caused by poor fuel you may have a case against the fuel supplier, but you'll need the fuel tested to be sure, and you'll need to be able to prove where it came from.  In view of the wet weather, could there be water contamination of your fuel?

I'd try to get a contact at the place the van will be taken to, and speak to them about what they will do.  I think you need to get yourself firmly in the driving seat regarding who is to do what, and at what cost.

I guess it is possible the fault is electronic and not mechanical and that, unless the garage you use has access to the full range of Fiat diagnostics, they may have reached a wrong initial conclusion.

If the van started, and ran normally, and had been running normally before you parked it on your drive, the kind of sudden death you describe seems to me a bit unlikely to be the high pressure pump, but some control, or other electronic, failure, or even a wire dropping off.

We had a car that died in similar fashion and that was due to the low pressure pump, located at the fuel tank, having failed.  It's job was to blow the fuel up to the HP pump and, when the fuel line sensors detected it wasn't working, they wouldn't let anything work.  Still expensive, but far less expensive than a new HP pump.

Otherwise, common rail injector pumps are very expensive bits of kit, and the repair will be costly.  Fingers crossed.

[Derek Uzzell]

Brian

 

This is a 2005 vehicle, so not likely to be under warranty.

 

Your Paragraph 3 advice cannot be over-emphasised. Regular forum members may recall the following:

 

HTTP://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=20750&posts=7

[euroserv]

Hello,

 

The 2.3 engine does have a history of eating high pressure pumps and they do fail suddenly however there are other possible causes of the problem.

 

You can almost certainly rule out any problems with the injectors because when they play up they will not allow the engine to start.

 

If the engine ran initially, then stopped it could be that there was sufficient fuel in the system to allow it to start, but then either the high pressure pump failed, or the fuel supply to it was interrupted. There is a low pressure fuel pump in the fuel tank (part of the sender unit), that runs when the ignition is switched on for about 20 seconds and shuts down if the engine is not started by then. Turn the ignition key until the lights on the dash illuminate and you should be able to hear a buzzing noise from underneath the panel in the floor on the passenger side of the cab. If you don't you either have an unusually quiet pump or it is not working.

 

I would be surprised if it is the lift pump beacause once the engine is running at anything up to a healthy rate of progress the high pressure pump 'pulls' a reasonable flow of fuel anyway.

 

If the pump runs and times out correctly you have a problem with the high pressure side of things. The pump may be ok, but is shutting down because it wrongly believes the fuel pressure to be either too low or too high in which case the pressure sensor is playing up, or the pressure IS too high or too low and therefore the pressure regulator is playing up. The regulator bolts onto the back of the high pressure pump and is fairly straighforward to replace, the sensor is on the fuel rail and is also fairly easy to get at. The pump itself is not so easy and requires the removal of the timing belt since it is run off the belt. This; before anyone chips in is the same arrangement as a Transit (even though the transit is chain driven), but is easier to do than on one of those godforsaken heaps.

 

Basically, because there are so many variables the best place for the van to be is at a Diesel specialist (Bosch) centre. They can carry out many more tests on the vehicle without taking it to bits than any franchised dealer, and the diagnostic kit will only give clues to the cause; not definitive answers.

 

I would recommend TT Automotive at Loughborough for this if you are in the East Midlands. I use them a lot and have never been disappointed.

 

In any case; you can buy a reconditioned high pressure pump these days and they come complete with the regulator and should cost no more than £250 to 350. I would expect this worst case scenario, including new cam belt and tensioners (because you should) and some investigative work before the repairs to cost up to about £800. This is not a quote, but a guide to what to expect if you need a pump. If not the high pressure pump then you will be spending a great deal less.

 

We do recommend an injector cleaner additive be put in the fuel tank once a year and I suspect it helps to keep things clean and working properly but have no proof.

 

Take it to an expert, and I congratulate your local garage for admitting that they are not best placed to fix this for you. We do these repairs in house but we have spare units that we can swap around while testing things which reduces the cost when you get it wrong!

 

Nick

[Timetraveller]

Thanks to evryone, particularly Brian & euroserve, who have given me their best information. A lot of it has gone over my head but I will definitely be in touch with my garage tomorrow & will give them this information & also ask for the garage in Nottingham to give me a call before they 'get their hands dirty'; so I can get a better perspective of what they intend doing & costs.

The van is five years old so think warranty will have expired. It had been driving normally; taken it for it's habitation check day or two before (about six miles away) & MOT last week, again about six miles away. I had taken the precaution of having a new timing belt fitted earlier this year; this work was carried out by my usual garage.

Thanks again :-(

[ken nugent]

Hi

 

I have been involved with the motor trade all my life and latterly it has been with diagnostics and this problem of high pressure fuel pump failure is not uncommon. In 2008 I bought a Citroen van but I went for the 1.9 as the 2.0 Ltrs Plus engines were the doggy ones and as explained by a friend who worked for a Peugeot Dealer, the problem was with the high pressure pumps apparently due to the lack of lubricant in the diesel a surface coating inside the pump was being ground away and eventually ends up choking the injectors, but this was apparently not on all vehicles as they could have one of 3 systems fitted i.e CAV, Bosch or Lucas. I believe the Bosch & Lucas systems where ok if my memory serves me correctly.

 

Early in the year I had a piece in MMM with reference to doggy diesel which I stated at the time was based on information from 6 years ago, but a month later someone responded to my article confirming basically what I had said but with up to date facts. I have been using a diesel addative for years which adds lubricant and cleaning agent and a cetaine increase but beware of adding just any form of lubricant as this can contaminate lamba and other censors including the cat.

 

ken

[Brian Kirby]

Timetraveller - 2010-11-02 11:57 PM ............ The van is five years old so think warranty will have expired. ...........

I had in mind the "extended" warranties, really breakdown insurances, that some buy - and possibly then forget about - but it was a long shot.  Hope the outcome is not too bad.  Nick's (euroserv) info re the cost of recon pumps is very encouraging - last I heard they were well over £1,000 (for new) but I didn't like to mention that!  :-)