Towbars 2 Towcars Grimsby.??

[Den]

Just ordered the new car (Fiat 500c) Does anyone have any experience of the electronic gizmo? Or any similar ones. Would be interested to know before i part with hard earned money.

[Mr. Grumpy]

Contact the company and ask to be referred to a few customers. There should be no problem if their customers are truly happy with the product.

[Den]

Good idea Mr Grumpy.

Will ring them again tomorrow.

[omar]

Hi

Great car auto, tow on aframe

[Guest JudgeMental]

Hope you have ordered the new 500 twin air or is it multi air? what an amazing little car! :-D

[cleo]

Den - 2010-11-03 6:49 PM

 

Just ordered the new car (Fiat 500c) Does anyone have any experience of the electronic gizmo? Or any similar ones. Would be interested to know before i part with hard earned money.

 

 

 

Yes we have had one of those a frames for the past 14 months and think they are ace. Dead easy if you have to get your car unhooked and a lot lighter to handle. Would definately advise anyone to look into getting one. :$ :-D We tow a Toyota Aygo with an American RV.

[Den]

Thanks for that, your the first person i know of who uses this A frame and pleased to hear you like it.

 

Don't wish to sound ignorant but is the twin air the new twin cylinder, if so no. It sounds revvy I'm told, bit like a motorbike.

The car and hood do match the MH colors (how sad is that).

And the MH reg is L8VOY and the car L7voy (double sad some would say)

 

Before I make my mind up and spend £1400 I'm going to have a look at the Cris Cox one.

[Derek Uzzell]

Den - 2010-11-04 10:00 AM

 

Don't wish to sound ignorant but is the twin air the new twin cylinder...

 

Yes, the Fiat 500 "Twin Air" has a two-cylinder motor. See:

 

http://www.whatcar.com/car-news/fiat-500-twin-air-driven/253799

 

Presumably you are purchasing the conventional 4-cylinder version.

 

"Multiair" seems to be a name Fiat uses to describe a particular engine technology. So the Fiat 500 "Twin Air" has a "Multiair" motor.

 

 

[Den]

Hi Derek

Yes I'm purchasing the 1.2 L.. Conventional.

[Ivys]

We had their A-frame fitted to a Peugeot 107.

Only done a few hundred miles but so far very impressed with the product and their service.

 

We previously used a Towtal frame on a Daihatsu. Drove a few thousand miles with the Towtal rig and was very pleased with it but prefer TowBars-2-TowCars).

 

This is where I prefer TowBars-2-TowCars over Towtal:

1. Better braking. You don't really notice the car you're towing (i.e. as you're braking). With Towtal we used to "feel" the tow car push us - I suppose it has to push you to operate the brake anyway. This is a biggy for us - we simply feel safer. And yes, I know that the toads are not the same so the improved braking efficiency could be due to a more efficient toad.

2. Easier to attach the tow-car purely because the A-frame is so much lighter. Don't need to be a body builder.

3. LED on dash to show when toad is braking. It's wired in so no worries about wireless link failing

4. Easier to reverse (I don't know why - it just is - maybe because the brakes don't lock up on the toad while being pushed back)

5. MUCH easier to store and handle the A-frame. Because we switched to a Puggy 107 for towing our old Towtal A-frame would no longer have fitted into the boot. As it was the Towtal rig took up the whole of our Daihatsu Hijet boot.

6. The toad battery is charged while you drive (our toad battery ran flat once en-route and we discovered the problem at the least convenient time!).

7. I think (time will tell) that their A-frame is less prone to rust. My Towtal frame is very rusted "as we speak".

8. Brake pedal on toad still works pretty much as before. The Towtal rig was a bit of a hassle, and once when the cable got stuck we cooked the brakes.

 

I think Towtal is better in two respects:

1. The way you attach the towing vehicles number plate is easier. Not a problem for me because I have the old Towtal clip-on plate that I use. The clips are very easy to buy and cheap.

2. If you're parked in a dicey area you will want to take the TowBars-2-TowCars "bolts" out, which makes the process a bit longer. However, when you consider that once removed the vehicle looks pretty much in it's "original" state I really don't mind. I think that when I get the hang of it screwing them back in should take less than a minute.

 

I know there have been debates around strength of the supporting structures. I googled TowBars-2-TowCars as thoroughly as I could and didn't come up with anything negative, certainly I never found a documented and google-able (i.e. searchable) case on the web where their rig failed. Before they fitted I asked them what they did, and basically they "beef up" the exisitng attachement point and make a new one on the other side. They also install a pretty hefty cable that, in the event all else fails, will pull up the toad handbrake.

 

The bottom line, I've used both rigs and I prefer TowBars-2-TowCars. That's not to say I didn't like Towtal. I simply couldn't store their rig in my 107 and for the reasons stated above I prefer TowBars-2-TowCars.

 

Rog

 

[Den]

Very interesting Rog, having used both types.

I see the vast difference in the weight of the A frame and of course cost.

I can also see the reversing problem of the conventional type, unlike a caravan when reversing knocks the brakes off. I needed a good reason to pay the extra, now I'm pretty well convinced.

I did not until you posted think why people complained about the reversing. Of course i now see why and tomorrow will ring them back to book. I did see it at Peterborough, but at the time her in doors wasn't convinced. Its taken all the time to talk her round, so i really do not want to get it wrong.

So thank you for an informative posting.

Dennis.

[Ivys]

You're welcome Dennis.

 

Not to start another bun-fight thread on the legalities of A-frames *-) , it's possible that in future overrun systems may not be legal, whereas electronic systems may be. When you chat to them ask them would you? I would expect that the various A-frame manufacturers would be up-to-speed with all pending legislation.

 

If you're not brave enough to put the answer here PM me with it (lol)

 

Rog

 

[Brian Kirby]

Den - 2010-11-04 5:36 PM Very interesting Rog, having used both types. I see the vast difference in the weight of the A frame and of course cost. I can also see the reversing problem of the conventional type, unlike a caravan when reversing knocks the brakes off. I needed a good reason to pay the extra, now I'm pretty well convinced. I did not until you posted think why people complained about the reversing. Of course i now see why and tomorrow will ring them back to book. I did see it at Peterborough, but at the time her in doors wasn't convinced. Its taken all the time to talk her round, so i really do not want to get it wrong. So thank you for an informative posting. Dennis.

The reversing problem is not, really, connected with the brakes, but with the steering geometry of the car in question.  When a car is travelling forward, its steering geometry (specifically the caster angle) is designed to ensure it has a tendency to travel in a straight line, because this ensures directional stability: it is "self centring".  That same geometry has the opposite effect when the vehicle is reversed, tending to draw it to full lock one side or the other. 

You can easily prove this to yourself in an empty, level, car park.  Select first gear, take your hands off the steering wheel, release the clutch and allow the car to drive forward for a few yards.  It should travel (more or less) straight.  Stop, select reverse gear, and try the same thing going backward.  You should find that the car begins to turn, and continues turning until it reaches full lock, or you hit a lamp post!  :-)

This is what the car will be trying to do when reversed on a A frame.  The extent to which it will pull to one, or other, side will depend on the road camber at the point where the manoeuvre is started, and the degree of caster built into the steering.  Some folk say they can reverse cars on A frames, others say they can't.  I suspect the difference, apart from the difficulty of the reversing manoeuvre actually attempted, and the length of the motorhome's rear overhang, has much to do with road camber and the caster angle built into the car's steering.

If ability to reverse is likely to be a concern for you, it might be worth testing, and observing, how the system works in practise with your van before buying.

[Mike B.]

Hi

We've towed with this system from T-2-T since 2007-Citreon C1 and A frame system all supplied by them-Can't fault it or them and covered a lot of miles with it.

I have posted a more in depth analysis on earlier threads but it all boils down to the same-Great system, Great service, Great deal including PX from them and they even delivered the van and car back to me after they changed the 7pin to the 13 pin required for their system.

Never had a problem towing or reversing-pity I can't say the same about towing the bike! (See my post Elnagh Marlin Bumper)

Mike

 

 

 

 

[Mike B.]

Hi Den

Just seen the bit about the plates

 

Jackie (My wife) bought me N19 MPB for a birthday present years ago which is on the bike

(November 19th + initials)

 

I added S19 MPB to the van

(I was born on a Saturday!)

 

I then added T19 MPB to the C1

(I was born at 10 o'clock!)

 

I wanted to get P19 for the wife but she refused to drive it for some reason!

 

Mike

 

How sad are we?? (?)

[Rosbotham]

I've picked on a few things you've said because I do find them a little curious. I don't have a Towtal frame, but use an over-run system. I've nothing against either over-run or electrical systems, but went with the former on cost grounds.

 

Ivys - 2010-11-04 3:07 PM

1. Better braking. You don't really notice the car you're towing (i.e. as you're braking). With Towtal we used to "feel" the tow car push us - I suppose it has to push you to operate the brake anyway.

 

IMHO there was something wrong with the adjustment of your previous frame/toad. You shouldn't feel the car rock onto the motorhome. If you were feeling that, it's a sign that the braking cable wasn't adjusted properly and wasn't pulling the brakes on properly. You can get a similar effect on e.g. Brakebuddy if it's not calibrated properly, and for that matter probably on the Towbars-2-towcars : however on the latter they'll undoubtedly have calibrated it properly before you take delivery.

 

Ivys - 2010-11-04 3:07 PM

3. LED on dash to show when toad is braking. It's wired in so no worries about wireless link failing

 

I like the sound of that. It's always puzzled me why other a-frame manufacturers haven't used a spare pin on the electrical connector to relay this information. In principle you could do it with an over-run system...just link the LED to the toad brake lights coming on.

 

Ivys - 2010-11-04 3:07 PM

4. Easier to reverse (I don't know why - it just is - maybe because the brakes don't lock up on the toad while being pushed back)

 

I'm with Brian on this. I'm highly sceptical about ability to reverse a car on an a-frame without a partner in the toad driving seat not because of the braking, but because with any camber it'll steer itself straight into the gutter. That said, as I've said previously on trailer vs frame debates, I don't buy that anyone other than an ex-HGV driver could realistically reverse a car on a trailer up a narrow lane when hooked onto a motorhome with substantial rear overhang.

 

Ivys - 2010-11-04 3:07 PM

6. The toad battery is charged while you drive (our toad battery ran flat once en-route and we discovered the problem at the least convenient time!).

 

I'm curious of how/why the toad battery would drain. On cars with a steering lock (ie everything other than Smart) you need the key in the ignition, but it's at position 0. Rear lights are driven from motorhome. What was causing the drain?

 

 

 

My belief is when the new legislation comes in the electrical brake operation (Brakebuddy, Towbars2Towcars) will be the only legal approach. However, the EU legislation is only slated for 2014, meaning later 2015/early 2016 for it impacting UK law. I'd be amazed if over-run systems won't offer a retrofit option to comply - disconnect the braking cable and add an electronic system.

[Den]

With the T 2 T system the batteries is used for the electronic braking system , that being the reason for the 13 pin connector for charging purposes.

 

All things said it's very interesting the opinions. I have looked into the new legislation T 2 T seem to be on a winner.

 

With regard to reversing, it's rare for me to get into difficulties and normally only need to reverse into a parking space. (Car would be detached)

 

I have in the past reversed trailers, caravans, HOV, and a 4 wheel trailer behind a tractor, while working 37 years ago Hop picking, an amazing experience both the Hop picking and reversing the trailer. It took many attempts before mastering it. (to a degree).

 

One thing I know is i'm not buying a trailer!!!

Den

[Ivys]

Rosbotham - 2010-11-04 8:51 PM

 

Ivys - 2010-11-04 3:07 PM

1. Better braking. You don't really notice the car you're towing (i.e. as you're braking). With Towtal we used to "feel" the tow car push us - I suppose it has to push you to operate the brake anyway.

IMHO there was something wrong with the adjustment of your previous frame/toad. You shouldn't feel the car rock onto the motorhome. If you were feeling that, it's a sign that the braking cable wasn't adjusted properly and wasn't pulling the brakes on properly. You can get a similar effect on e.g. Brakebuddy if it's not calibrated properly, and for that matter probably on the Towbars-2-towcars : however on the latter they'll undoubtedly have calibrated it properly before you take delivery.

Ivys - 2010-11-04 3:07 PM

6. The toad battery is charged while you drive (our toad battery ran flat once en-route and we discovered the problem at the least convenient time!).

I'm curious of how/why the toad battery would drain. On cars with a steering lock (ie everything other than Smart) you need the key in the ignition, but it's at position 0. Rear lights are driven from motorhome. What was causing the drain?

 

I agree - there was something wrong with the settings. The problem we had was that it was a "fine line" between getting some decent braking going and having the brakes on permanently and heating/binding. Obviously some gunk got into the system and the cable began to stick every now and then - resulting in us cooking the brakes.

As I said in my post, this was with an old Daihatsu with inefficient brakes. We're now towing a 107 with excellent brakes, therefore my comparison is not entirely fair. However, having had a good look at how the T-2-T works it's less fiddly (in fact totally non-fiddly) - you simply attach and plug in and it all works.

 

The fact that the battery flattened was due to having the cable slightly too tight. It caused the brake light to come on but obviously the brakes weren't yet doing any work. We discovered the problem when we had to jump out to drive the toad after we took a wrong turn. Not fun.

 

Rosbotham - 2010-11-04 8:51 PM

Ivys - 2010-11-04 3:07 PM

4. Easier to reverse (I don't know why - it just is - maybe because the brakes don't lock up on the toad while being pushed back)

 

I'm with Brian on this. I'm highly sceptical about ability to reverse a car on an a-frame without a partner in the toad driving seat not because of the braking, but because with any camber it'll steer itself straight into the gutter. That said, as I've said previously on trailer vs frame debates, I don't buy that anyone other than an ex-HGV driver could realistically reverse a car on a trailer up a narrow lane when hooked onto a motorhome with substantial rear overhang.

 

 

Let me clarify: I don't say it's easy reversing - just easier (or less difficult if you like). And I'm not talking about anything adventurous - just simple stuff like go back straight for 10 or 20 yards.

 

Rog

 

[Den]

Hi Mike

The reason for our plates is.

 

We purchased a LeVoyageur 9 series L9VOY

 

at the same time I purchased L8VOY for a tow car.

 

We sold the Levoyageur but still retained L8VOY, We have on order a new 8 Series LeVoyageur, so we'll use that on the MH,

So having ordered the Fiat 500c we purchased L7VOY.

 

Colin who purchased our 9 Series still has the L9VOY plate , and we travel together occasionally, should look strange

 

L7 , L8 and L9.

 

Den

[yrocker]

Ivys - 2010-11-04 5:55 PM

 

 

 

Not to start another bun-fight thread on the legalities of A-frames *-) , it's possible that in future overrun systems may not be legal, whereas electronic systems may be. When you chat to them ask them would you? I would expect that the various A-frame manufacturers would be up-to-speed with all pending legislation.

 

 

Rog

 

If this is the case what will the position be for all the caravans and trailers that currently have overun brakes?

 

Surely there should be a physical connection between the towing vehicle and the trailer, something that fails safe in the event of disconnection!

[Andy_C]

yrocker - 2010-11-05 9:56 AM

 

Ivys - 2010-11-04 5:55 PM

 

 

 

Not to start another bun-fight thread on the legalities of A-frames *-) , it's possible that in future overrun systems may not be legal, whereas electronic systems may be. When you chat to them ask them would you? I would expect that the various A-frame manufacturers would be up-to-speed with all pending legislation.

 

 

Rog

 

If this is the case what will the position be for all the caravans and trailers that currently have overun brakes?

 

Surely there should be a physical connection between the towing vehicle and the trailer, something that fails safe in the event of disconnection!

Overrun (inertia) braking systems will still be allowed on centre-axle trailers. This type of legislation is not usually retrospective so it may be that no existing trailers/A-frames will be affected.

 

AndyC

[Rosbotham]

Den - 2010-11-04 9:39 PM

 

With the T 2 T system the batteries is used for the electronic braking system , that being the reason for the 13 pin connector for charging purposes.

 

All things said it's very interesting the opinions. I have looked into the new legislation T 2 T seem to be on a winner.

 

Den

 

Oo...you may...DYOR and all that...have just identified an achilles heel in the legality of the T2T system. I'm almost sure I read somewhere that it's mandatory for electronic braking systems to be driven by the power supply of the towing vehicle, not operate from a battery on the trailer (the thing to search up on is the modified braking systems that have to be fitted to US 5th wheelers to make them legal in Europe).

 

Now, if the T2T system is operating from the toad battery but charging it from the motorhome to ensure that it's topped up, does that meet the criteria? E.g. if something happened to make the toad battery not hold a charge, would the charging current from the motorhome operate the braking system? I don't know, I just ask the question.

 

As I say, do your own research, but this DFT factsheet (item 3) tends to indicate I wasn't imagining it:

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/vehicles/vssafety/factsheetamericantrailer.pdf

 

Paul

[GixerMark]

IVYS .....

 

We have sent you 2 PM's ( one to your personel e.mail & one to the site PM )

 

..... If you have a few min's spare would you be kind enough to reply to my questions ???

 

Many thanks

 

Mark

[Den]

I Paul

A grey area the Toad charging, but I'm going for it anyway.

It seems the best system at the moment, I've looked into the new legislation and with it being several years away, I will certainly get my monies worth by then what ever happens.

 

Dennis

[scotkarter]

Had car converted by them, installation was a nightmare and the system went faulty on the second time we used it. Had to return to Grimsby to have it repaied and when car was returned to us the driver seat belt had not been reconnected.

 

Not recommended.