Air sourcs heat pumps

[Syd]

Any advice or aditional information on these products would be gratefully received

 

We are weighing up the pro's and con's of having this technology fitted to our house.

It does away with all other forms of space and water heating but I am surprised by the amount of work that we have to have done before they fit the machine.

Mitsubishi EcoDan W140 14kW Air Source Heat Pump (Single Phase)

Total cost will be £8,507 plus the work that we have to do

 

Their quotes below have not copied and pasted very well and are dificult to follow

 

 

Quotation from Ice Energy

Heating Solution

Qty. Unit Price Total Price

1 £5,276.00 £5,276.00

1 £975.00 £975.00

1 £762.00 £762.00

£8,102.00

£405.10

£8,507.10

Microgeneration Grant

Warranty Cover

36 Months

36 Months

Unvented Mains Pressure System c/w 3.0sqm heat pump coil to optimise reheat time of tank.

VAT @ 5%

Please see our Installation Manual for design specifics and further information.

Heat Pumps

Heating Solution Total

The proposed microgeneration heating system above is applicable for a subsidy of up to £291 (per unit), subject to

the system being commissioned before April 2011. Ice Energy will administer this grant on your behalf upon

Commissioning and full payment of the system.

Issue: 21/09/10

Please ensure you inform your local planning authority if you wish to install an air source heat pump and your local electricity supplier of your

intentions if required by them. If a site survey is conducted there will not be a survey report sent - it is a feasibility report to ensure that the

Technical Sales Representative has made an accurate assessment.

The warranty that we provide is active from the date of

commissioning and is insurance-backed, transferrable and

can be extended with our Greenshield Cover Plan.

Sunderland

Page 2 of 11

Doc ID: SA105

This quotation is valid for 30 days and is subject to a site survey. Specifications may be subject to change. E & OE.

Mitsubishi FTC controller, anti-vibration Flexible Hoses and Foot Strips to connect external unit to

pre-plumbed pipework, Flow Meter and Boiler Buddy to be installed by customers plumber to

work with the heat pump for optimum performance.

Commissioning Package

Commissioning of heat pump system, customer hand over, all deliveries to site, certification

under MCS scheme, and activation of warranty. Prior to commissioning, the heat pump and domestic hot water cylinder must be installed by customer's own plumber. This should include all heating supplies and control equipment. All system electrical work must be completed by

customer's electrician. The Heat Pump must to be fixed to a solid platform with suitable draining, which needs to be arranged by customer.

Floor Area to be heated is 200m² using Measurements (no plans seen) provided by client.

The external unit dimensions are (w) 1020mm x (d) 330mm x (h) 1350mm. Please allow 1 meter clearance from the front of the external unit and 300mm distance from the back of the unit to thewall.

Please refer to Unit Specifications to ensure electrical & space requirements can be met.

Mitsubishi EcoDan W140 14kW Air Source Heat Pump (Single Phase)

To be installed by your designated qualified plumber.

Water Storage Cylinder

£1,089.00 £1,089.00

Heating System comprising design, supply, commissioning and warranty.

Quote Reference Number:

Project Type is defined as RETRO (Domestic) Maximum demand is assumed at 10.5kW.

Description

Thursday, November 04, 2010

Ice Energy 210 litre POWERFLOW Unvented (mains pressure) Hot Water Cylinder

Labour Warranty Provided:

Parts Warranty Provided:

Control System and Additional Equipment

Total

 

 

To ensure authenticity, the performance estimation below includes a consideration of local minimum temperature (for Middlesborough) and important parameters regarding your property. The co-efficient of performance of ANY heat pump will be dependent on the heat distribution system employed. You have indicated Radiators and so should

ensure that any competing Performance Estimation takes this into account.

1.75

MIS 3005*

Prediction

1,758 kWh

10,897 kWh

The calculations above are based on the Heat Pump delivering 100% of the heating load and have been made using Electricity with an

'Emissions Factor' of 0.422 kgCO 2/kWh and Natural Gas with an 'Emissions Factor' of 0.194 kgCO 2/kWh.2.53

Issue: 21/09/10

Please Note

2,538 kWh 5,608 kWh Middlesborough 4,441 kWh

This performance estimation has been calculated in accordance with MIS3005, as is required by the Microgeneration Certification Scheme. Ice

Energy Heat Pumps are MCS accredited for the sale and installation of Heat Pumps; our certification number is MCS 1136.

20,486 kWh 7,366 kWh Doc ID: SA105 1.88

Ice Energy Prediction

Figures are based on manufacturers claims and best information supplied by the customer.

The Performance of Microgeneration heat pumps systems is impossible to predict with certainty due to the variability of the climate

and its subsequent effect on both heat supply and demand. This estimate is based upon the best available information but is given as

guidance only and should not be considered as a guarantee.

Ice Energy Ecodan W140

Quote Reference Number:

 

[Guest JudgeMental]

I would be concerned that the performance lives up to the claims Nothing worse then being cold as you get older *-)

 

surely a decent condensing boiler would be better value?

[Syd]

JudgeMental - 2010-11-05 10:51 AM

 

I would be concerned that the performance lives up to the claims Nothing worse then being cold as you get older *-)

 

surely a decent condensing boiler would be better value?

 

 

 

Hi Judge

Considering that too, might be eligible for one of them under the warm front scheme

[Guest JudgeMental]

I think there is a government sponsored rebate of £400 on a condensing boiler as well...

[Brian Kirby]

I think you would get far better and more reliable performance from a ground source heat pump than these.  Consider: you are trying to extract heat from cold air in winter to heat your house, or reject heat from your house to hot air in summer when you want cooling.  Air is not, generally, a good medium for transporting energy, and varies in constantly in temperature throughout any 24 hour period, and also from one side of a building to the other.

The ground, on the other hand, below somewhere around 1 metre deep, varies little in temperature summer to winter, and is continually warmed by the earth's core.  It has mass, which makes a far better and more stable source of heat, and also a more efficient heat absorber.  The heat transfer medium for a ground source pump is (basically) water, which is also dense, and so readily conveys energy.  The operating parameters for the machine are within a much narrower band, allowing the system to operate, at least in theory, with greater efficiency.

However, both machines will use considerable amounts of electricity in operation, so although I would expect the ground source installation to be more efficient in use, when the increased installation costs are taken into account, it may well have a longer payback period.  Both will require maintenance.  The critical issues, IMO, are what electricity price is used to compute payback, and supporting that, what assumptions are/have been made regarding ground, and air, temperature variations, annual maintenance costs, thermal performance of the house, the temperature/s at which it is assumed the house will be maintained, and the durations of same.  Ultimately, the equipment will have to be replaced and, IMO, what you need is a lifetime cost estimate declaring all of the above factors.

Either way, you will spend a shed-load of cash on an installation that relies fundamentally on electricity to work. 

Using solar gatherers for hot water, as much passive winter heat gain as possible, with high building fabric thermal insulation, heat recovery on mechanical ventilation, triple glazed windows, the most energy efficient forms of lighting, and a small, condensing, gas fired boiler in a location, if possible, that allows it to be replaced with minimal disruption, would probably cost less initially to achieve, and would easily allow supplementary heating from say, a wood burning stove, to be used in all but the coldest weather.  In combination, I would think the above measures would save more money in lifetime running costs, as well as costing less to install, than the desirable thermal insulation elements plus either ground, or air, source heat pumps.  One needs to compare the economics of the options over, say, 25 years, to arrive at a reasonable forecast of which should give the lowest projected lifetime costs overall.

I think the services of a good independent consulting building services engineer (CIBSE qualified) may pay dividends at this stage.

[flicka]

From what I have found this technology should still be classified as "New" having been on the market for c3 years.

 

As with any "latest/new" technology, it is difficult to prove / disprove Manufacturers claims with the lack hard evidence/ field experience and therefore risk level is increased.

 

So the questions are:-

Do you trust the Manufacturers claims, bearing in mind he needs to maximise sales to recoup R&D costs as well as a profit. So prices are currently still at their peak levels.

 

Will the cost drop dramatically in 2/3 years.

 

How capable will independant Installers be & what product knowledge to thay have (i.e Manufacturer's Training Certificates, etc..)

 

What back-up do you have if the system fails & what is the Installers responce time & repair capability.

 

Due to the "new technology" risk do you take out a Maintenance Agreement - (factor that cost in.)

 

Do you want to be one of a few "guinea pigs", then live to regret or wallow in self congratulations, depending on long term outcome.

 

How much contingency do you need to put aside to cover less than expected output or total replacement in worst case scenario. (see link below)

 

http://www.modbs.co.uk/news/fullstory.php/aid/8119/Mitsubishi_issues_safety_recall_for_Ecodan_heat_pumps_.html

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[nightrider]

Get yourself a woodburning stove, a chainsaw and a logsplitting axe, make friends with your local tree surgeon for supplies, I can guarantee that you wont be cold after swinging on a log splitting axe for half an hour (lol)

[Guest pelmetman]

Ditto the log burner :-D

 

Air source heat pump? does that involve drilling a great big hole in the ground? As round here we have noticed several council house properties having what looks like a mini oil rig in the front garden for a week (?)

 

Just curious :D

[nightrider]

With the lousy cold wet weather we have had over here for the last week, my workshop with the woodburner blazing away is very popular with my mates who come round to chew the fat.

I usually say to them dont make yourself at home I've got work to do, I could do with a ten ton electric log splitter if I can find one at the right price

[Mel B]

Why would you want to spend a load of dosh on something which IMV hasn't been properly proven to be cost effective or any better than some of the alternatives?

 

One system which has been gaining in popularity over recent years is ground source heating (lots of piping - resembling long hosepipes - are buried in the ground about 1 metre down). It's been around for quite a while now but even this has quite a long payback period.

 

Make your home as efficient as possible in terms of containing any heat you put into it - a very good layer of insulation in your loft, cavity wall insulation, getting better windows (triple glazed) if you're looking at replacing them anyway, draught proofing. If you have floorboards in your ground floor, consider having them insulated underneath - it's not expensive and can really make a difference in preventing the cold coming up from under the house.

 

Unless you're going to replace your radiators with warm air heating ducts or underfloor heating, you won't get the full benefit of air source heating anyway.

 

http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/Generate-your-own-energy/Air-source-heat-pumps

 

Personally, I'd rather not waste my money on it.

[Mel B]

pelmetman - 2010-11-05 6:38 PM

 

Ditto the log burner :-D

 

Air source heat pump? does that involve drilling a great big hole in the ground? As round here we have noticed several council house properties having what looks like a mini oil rig in the front garden for a week (?)

 

Just curious :D

 

You're possibly thinking of the ground source heating but usually that involves digging out large areas of garden (a bit like opencast mining on a domestic scale), laying rows and rows of piping down, and covering it all up again (see Brian's post earlier on).

[Guest pelmetman]

Mel B - 2010-11-05 9:21 PM

 

pelmetman - 2010-11-05 6:38 PM

 

Ditto the log burner :-D

 

Air source heat pump? does that involve drilling a great big hole in the ground? As round here we have noticed several council house properties having what looks like a mini oil rig in the front garden for a week (?)

 

Just curious :D

 

You're possibly thinking of the ground source heating but usually that involves digging out large areas of garden (a bit like opencast mining on a domestic scale), laying rows and rows of piping down, and covering it all up again (see Brian's post earlier on).

 

Thats the bit that is puzzling me as they seem to be doing it in the small front gardens :-S

[Mel B]

It would be unusual for them to install this sort of system for council houses - I wonder if they are having their soil/foundations checked - they'd use mini oil-rig type equipment to drill out core samples for that.