Central Heating?

[Guest Tracker]

Having had mains gas for umpteen years in our last homes we now find ourselves using oil. It heats OK and, although the Trianco boiler is 20 years old, is burning at 89% efficiency according to the guy who serviced it last week. There is no mains gas in the village unfortunately.

 

However as with all oil boilers it is a bit smelly plus the steel tank will soon need replacing, plus the indoors boiler room gets very warm - heat that would be better sent around the bungalow in my humble view!.

 

So what do we do - get a modern oil boiler and possibly install it in a new outside boiler room - or go for LPG - in which case is 4 x 47kg bottles or a big tank the better option?

 

Big LPG tank refill prices should be less than 47kg bottle refill prices per kg (I think) but the big tank comes tied to it's supplier's prices for two years, although I understand that Flogas are much better to deal with than Calor and less expensive.

 

Installation costs for oil are £1700 more than for LPG and I can buy a lot of gas with £1700 - plus no risk of oil smell!

 

Does anyone know of a website that actually compares the running costs of oil and lpg as all I can find is biased 'reasons' to buy either but no real information.

 

I am advised that oil boilers burn more efficiently than gas boilers - although I find that hard to understand so any price comparison would need to take into accout not only the calorific values of each fuel but the likely boiler efficiency as well?

 

What are they - both oil and lpg suppliers - hiding from me that is so bad that they don't want me to know!

 

What have I missed taking into account?

 

Any thoughts or experiences please anyone?

 

Thanks.

[Guest JudgeMental]

I would try and do something about the smell.....89% is very good efficiency, not much worse then a condensing boiler. I would look at some alternatives technologies as fossil fuels ain't getting any cheaper*-)

[colin]

A decent oil boiler will be cheaper to run than lpg, but as you say the instaltion is dearer for most people.

Oil boilers designed for instalation in the kitchen 'should' be less smelly than the older one,s, BUT, we have a new Worchester Bosch in the new bungalow, thankfully we instaled it in a utility room as it smells, after two years of discussion with WB we became resigned to it, but have since learned that it is a design fault >:-(

 

[Guest pelmetman]

Get a log burner :D (multi fuel type is best)

 

We have oil and like you there is no gas in the village, not convinced the cost of changing to bottled gas would save any money in the long term :-S

 

We use about a 1000 litres a year which is less than half what our neighbours use :-D The log burner has several advantages if there is a power cut you still have heat, and if you get one with a flat top you can heat water on it and cook meals B-)

 

Our boiler is installed in my workshop so the smelly bit is not in the house, can you have it fitted in a garage (?)

[Randonneur]

We have an LPG gas tank provided by Totalgaz, this is for the central heating and cooking. We have the equivalent of an immersion heater for water which is cheaper than running the water through the gas boiler. We also have a wood burner which has three outlets that go into one of the bathrooms and one of the bedrooms, we had to remove it from the toilet as it was like a sauna so this one has been put into the kitchen. The Gas tank cost was £500 which is refunded when we leave the property and that pays for the yearly maintenance charges, ours is above ground but now there is the facility to have one put into the ground so you only see the filler lid.

[Mel B]

I haven't done a comparison, but I thought electricity was now getting to be on a par with main gas costs? If so, have you considered going electric? As you're doing up your bungalow, you could look at various ways to get the best value out of electric heating, such as underfloor heating. You could supplement the mains electric with some solar energy, not sure of the ins and outs of that, but again, might be worth looking at as sometimes there are grants to be had ... especially for old codgers! :D

 

Just a thought. :-D

[Guest peter]

We've got a Worcester Bosch gas condensinng boiler in the utility room. I've also installed a log burner in the lounge, which is brilliant. Last winter we bought about £700 worth of gas from Calor in total. Of which in Feb' this year we bought £400 worth which filled the tank to max which is 87%. We still have over 50%, so won't need a top up 'till after Christmas. We have 300mm of insulation in the loft and cavity wall insulaton. Although the gas is 45p per Ltr we still think it's pretty good. Bar in mind also, that LPG has twice the calorific value as Natural Gas.

The log burner is the best thing, as the central heating is only on for a few Hrs a day. We have an electric covector in the Bedroom to take the chill off when we go to bed.

I would be a bit sceptical of anyone telling me that a 20 Yr old non condensing oil boiler was 87% efficient. Because a Gas one of similar age certainly would not be.

[Brian Kirby]

I think Peter is on the right track.  Before you get too excited about the boiler, attend to the insulation and draught proofing.  Also look to ways to maximise passive gains, possibly increasing glazed areas to the south and west, or even just reducing shading during winter by some tree/shrub pruning.  Consider triple glazing any north facing windows, especially if large.  I would strongly urge you to avoid any kind of electric heating like the plague!  If you have fireplaces, even if they have been blocked off, I would consider getting them opened (which may involve work to flues etc), and installing a wood burner of some kind, possibly two, into your main living room/s.  Depending on the construction of the floors it may be worth considering underfloor heating, but I'd guess it will be uneconomical unless you are having insulated concrete floors laid.  Underfloor heating with wood burners for use in the shoulder seasons, and as supplementary heating when really cold, can work very well.  Underfloor heating is a very slow response system, and is best used as background heating rather than the main source.  Very nice in bedrooms/bathrooms for the tootsies!  If the house is of masonry construction, especially of it also has solid internal walls, it will change temperature very slowly, so you need a heating system that also changes temperature slowly.  Blown air systems, of example, will not prove satisfactory.  If the boiler is 20 years old the rads may also be on their last knockings and, if you first do the insulation and draught proofing, it would probably pay to get someone to do some proper, room by room, heat loss calculations and then design you a new heating system based on those.  You should find the rads can be reduced considerably in size/output leading, logically enough, to a smaller boiler using less of whatever you decide to run it on.  Final thought, investigate a "combi" type boiler to avoid the proverbial 30 gallon hot water cylinder.  Reduces summer hot water bills by a big margin, and still a winner in winter.  You do need to have the boiler close to the main source of consumption, usually the bathroom, so if the kitchen is remote, take only cold water there and install a small under-sink electric "Sadia" type heater on a timer.

[Guest pelmetman]

British Gas are hiking their price again >:-(

 

So another reason for a log/multi fuel burner, as fuels like oil gas electric are only going to go up :D

[colin]

In the 'old house' we have a multifuel boiler as our main heat source, to enable it to run 24/7 without relighting we have to use Homefire for it to 'slumber' if we had to pay for logs add this to cost of Homefire and it would be same bill as for the 'new house' if not a little more, it is also nowhere near as flexible as a oil/gas boiler, but we still like it.

Brians point on water heating is not as straight forward as it may at first seem! you see the latest thinking on Eco house heating has a wood burner attached to a great big hot water tank which provides heat storage and indeed in the 'old house' a large proportion of heat goes into water tank and then 'leaks' out to surrounding house, so in winter we have lashings of hot water which provides a background heat source and a power shower, in summer we use an electric shower, we have very little other use for hot water.

[Guest Tracker]

Thanks folks.

 

I should have added that we are of course addressing loft and wall insulation, draughts, and replacement windows and doors issues as well.

 

I know how much the boilers cost to install, I can easily get the fuel costs per unit in which they are sold, I can find the calorific values of each fuel if I look for it hard enough, and I can get the boiler makers alleged efficiency ratings - (btw I too doubt my 20 year old boiler's efficiency is 89%)!

 

What I can't find is a true comparison of running costs taking all the above factors into account and without that the rest is meaningless and I am loathe to change anything without some decent evidence that it will be worth the effort in the medium term?

[Guest peter]

Brian Kirby - 2010-11-12 6:09 PM

I think Peter is on the right track.  Before you get too excited about the boiler, attend to the insulation and draught proofing.  Also look to ways to maximise passive gains, possibly increasing glazed areas to the south and west, or even just reducing shading during winter by some tree/shrub pruning.  Consider triple glazing any north facing windows, especially if large.  I would strongly urge you to avoid any kind of electric heating like the plague!  If you have fireplaces, even if they have been blocked off, I would consider getting them opened (which may involve work to flues etc), and installing a wood burner of some kind, possibly two, into your main living room/s.  Depending on the construction of the floors it may be worth considering underfloor heating, but I'd guess it will be uneconomical unless you are having insulated concrete floors laid.  Underfloor heating with wood burners for use in the shoulder seasons, and as supplementary heating when really cold, can work very well.  Underfloor heating is a very slow response system, and is best used as background heating rather than the main source.  Very nice in bedrooms/bathrooms for the tootsies!  If the house is of masonry construction, especially of it also has solid internal walls, it will change temperature very slowly, so you need a heating system that also changes temperature slowly.  Blown air systems, of example, will not prove satisfactory.  If the boiler is 20 years old the rads may also be on their last knockings and, if you first do the insulation and draught proofing, it would probably pay to get someone to do some proper, room by room, heat loss calculations and then design you a new heating system based on those.  You should find the rads can be reduced considerably in size/output leading, logically enough, to a smaller boiler using less of whatever you decide to run it on.  Final thought, investigate a "combi" type boiler to avoid the proverbial 30 gallon hot water cylinder.  Reduces summer hot water bills by a big margin, and still a winner in winter.  You do need to have the boiler close to the main source of consumption, usually the bathroom, so if the kitchen is remote, take only cold water there and install a small under-sink electric "Sadia" type heater on a timer.

Bang on about the under sink heater in the kitchen Brian. That's exatly what I've done when re-furbishing our kitchen. Ours is a long bungalow and the Combi/Condensing Boiler is at the opposite end to the kitchen, next to the bathroom and the water used to take forever to reach the kitchen hot and left a few gallons in the pipework to cool down again once the tap was closed. The kitchen is fed by both systems with two isolator valves to change from one to the other feed. The heater is a closed tank system and is fed directly from the mains, it holds 10 Ltrs which is plenty as it only takes about 10 Min's to heat up at 2.2 Kw, it's fed from a 13 Amp socket with an iluminated and switched plug.We've also got a 28Ft x 10Ft conservatory on the side of the bungalow, which faces south. So it gets the sun all day long, which is great in the Winter and Spring, but gets a bit hot in Summer, like + 40c.

[Corky 8]

Hi Rich,

          There is no gas in our part of the Village, we have been here 7 years, when I did the Equations for oil and LPG,LPG was cheaper and I think still is but trying to evaluate one fuel against another I was reliant on what the vendors of the fuel burning appliance stated as the Consumption thus cost of running ,with to many variant conditions to take into consideration main one being weather, then People in the property using the shower as the Boiler would need to be a combination Boiler, in the end I Bought a Bosch Worcester 26/32 oil combination boiler, its the size of a washing Machine and lives in the Kitchen between two units, There is no smell of any kind form it or around it,its been in 6 years and has heated the (big) Bungalow and supplied hot water without any trouble at all, siteing of the oil tank was the main concern for accessibility and aesthetics in the area, but I think we have got the balance right, I purchased a larger tank than required 2000 ltr the norm at that time was 1000 ltr and keep it topped up whenever the price drops , which is very rare now, on average we spend £400 to £500 per year on oil, we too have a multi fuel stove in the living room, we still suffer power cuts and this can be used to cook on as well as keep us warm, No electric No Power to run any boiler these days ,

[Guest peter]

Tracker - 2010-11-12 8:51 PM

 

Thanks folks.

 

I should have added that we are of course addressing loft and wall insulation, draughts, and replacement windows and doors issues as well.

 

I know how much the boilers cost to install, I can easily get the fuel costs per unit in which they are sold, I can find the calorific values of each fuel if I look for it hard enough, and I can get the boiler makers alleged efficiency ratings - (btw I too doubt my 20 year old boiler's efficiency is 89%)!

 

What I can't find is a true comparison of running costs taking all the above factors into account and without that the rest is meaningless and I am loathe to change anything without some decent evidence that it will be worth the effort in the medium term?

Whatever fuel you use, you need a Combi/Condensing boiler to maximise your insulation efficiencies. I cant believe how efficient ors Gas boiler is. By the way you need big radiators to get the most out of a condensing boiler, as it won't condense above 50c temperature of return water. So there needs to be a reasonable temp' difference between outflow and return to boiler. Also one rad' must not have a thermostatically controlled valve fitted, because if all the others have shut down at set temp' there needs to be a flow in the system to enable the pump to cycle freely. HTH

[art338]

Remember the old Sadia water heaters, positioned above the kitchen sink, turn tap on, instant hot water, don't know if they make anything similar now.

 

Where you live is important and which way round is the house? As said add a glass covering to any free space on the south side, it can save lots of cash.

 

Living in the centre of a terraced row of houses is ideal, only two outside walls to consider.

 

Wind pressure on one side of the house will remove all heat out the opposite side through any cracks or gaps. If you have a room unused buy some 1" thick polystyrene sheet and cut it to fit the window, even if its double glazed it will minimise the cooling effect from the window.

 

They did make wallpaper with a poly material on one side to insulate a cold wall.

 

As said also, remove all growing material that shades the windows, do not live on a hill, neither in a wood.

 

Indoors wear thicker clothing and a hat. If you have a dog, keep it in the garage or shed or outdoors, indoors it will always be damp.

 

Moisture absorbes energy (heat), the house needs to be as dry as possible moisture will transfer heat to objects within the house and through cracks to outside.

 

Remove all moisture from cooking with an extractor to OUTDOORS not just into the room as some modern ones do, they call them fume extractors, the moisture is still there even if the fat particles are captured.

 

Wall insulation is very important, stop draughts going up the cavity they will cool your inner walls and transfer heat from the house to outdoors

 

Keep all windows and doors shut, heating the sky is very costly.

 

Hot air should be coloured, then you'd see where it went!!

 

PS. If you have an open fireplace and a wooden floor, make a big hole in the floor close to the fire area, to allow air to enter the room, and when the fire is not used make, or get someone to make a moveable shutter or something similar to blank off what is a terrible blast hole that allows the room to be continually cold up to knee level, why heat the sky?

 

art

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

Tracker - 2010-11-12 8:51 PM Thanks folks. I should have added that we are of course addressing loft and wall insulation, draughts, and replacement windows and doors issues as well. I know how much the boilers cost to install, I can easily get the fuel costs per unit in which they are sold, I can find the calorific values of each fuel if I look for it hard enough, and I can get the boiler makers alleged efficiency ratings - (btw I too doubt my 20 year old boiler's efficiency is 89%)! What I can't find is a true comparison of running costs taking all the above factors into account and without that the rest is meaningless and I am loathe to change anything without some decent evidence that it will be worth the effort in the medium term?

In truth, Rich, I don't think I'd worry too much about the differences in running costs, because as you've already said the difference in installation costs is so substantial.  You'll have to get Building Regs approval (probably via approved installer) for whatever you do, and there are a lot of requirements regarding control systems etc that collectively seem to me to favour gas boilers.

IMO, energy prices are unlikely to be stable for the foreseeable future, and whatever you decide will be the "wrong" source after 18 months.  Same applies to gas supplier, whoever is cheapest this week, won't be next.  As you've said, you can buy a lot of gas for the difference in installation costs, and I think oil fired boilers tend to cost more to service as well. 

Gas (LPG) is currently in plentiful supply and, if you get the insulation and passive gains right, you won't need that much, especially if you can get a wood burner or something, to take the chill off cool evenings when running the full system wouldn't really be economical.  Also useful if you get a power cut!

Not sure about Peter's "big" radiators, I think what you probably need is high efficiency radiators, that chuck their  heat into the room more quickly, so dropping the return temperature.  Bigguns hold more water, so the heat up consumption is greater, and the time lag longer, lowering overall efficiency.

What you do need is a good designer, so that your system is as efficient as possible from the outset.  Do also consider controls: an optimiser is well worth having rather than a simple stat, and try to get thermistor, rather than thermostatic, type controls installed because they offer closer control - meaning there is less temperature variation between the "on" and "off" cycles, so greater comfort.  Keep warm!  :-)

[art338]

I've always thought but not done it, due to age and little space around the house.

 

That the best form of low heating is to drill a hole in the garden as deep as possible 40ft (?) and about 4" in diameter, insert a double set of tubes to the bottom.

 

Fit as many radiators as possible in the house.

 

Connect both parts to a pump, fill with water, and live in luxury. I believe the earths guarranteed temperature would be 55f at all times. (it is in UK caves)

 

Fit a secondary system hot water system to add that little extra at cold times

 

art

[Guest pelmetman]

Another suggestion if you are redecorating and having new curtains, get them interlined, its like sewing in a blanket in between the main fabric and lining, as good as double glazing B-)

 

I know an excellent curtain maker in your area, pm me if you would like her phone number :D

[Mel B]

art338 - 2010-11-12 11:42 PM

 

If you have a room unused buy some 1" thick polystyrene sheet and cut it to fit the window, even if its double glazed it will minimise the cooling effect from the window.

 

They did make wallpaper with a poly material on one side to insulate a cold wall.

 

From a health and safety (fire) point of view I suggest you do NOT do the above!!!!! If there is ever a fire, polystyrene is lethal due to the toxic fumes.

8-)

 

If you want to cover a window, use some of the padded internal screen material that you put up in motorhomes instead.

 

If you have a dog, keep it in the garage or shed or outdoors, indoors it will always be damp.

 

???? I assume you mean from the 'breath' of the dog ... I'd end up with very unhappy dogs and vets bills - you can't simply start putting a dog outside or in an unheated place if they're not used to it, they'd be poorly and it would be extremely cruel. Somehow I don't think Richard will follow this particular piece of advice for his lovely doggy. :-S

[Guest Tracker]

Thanks Mel - that concurs with my thoughts perzactly!

 

With the cost of a new oil fired combi boiler at around four grand fitted with all the old tanks etc removed the temptation is to stick with the old boiler for a while.

 

It's too early to tell how much oil a year we will burn as we have only been here three weeks but based on a generously guestimated yearly oil burn of around £800 even a 25% efficiency saving would take 20 years to recoup?

 

Plus the service guy lives local and has good access to all the spares we could ever need - or so he says - and it only costs £50 a year to service the boiler - and we have a potential open fire (currently blocked but easily unblocked) and a portable gas heater as backup?

 

So I might just wait until the incentives improve?

 

[Syd]

Just a little info from our own modernisations

 

While it is almost imposible to be accurate in this we believe that after insulating the roof with 3 inches of insulation board the temperature in our house, without any heating being used is between one or two degrees warmer than it used to be.

 

We did already have cavity insulation

 

When we open our loft trapdoor, instead of cold air coming tumbleing out the air is actually warm.

[Guest peter]

If the air is warm, then your lot insulation in not good enough and you are paying to heat your loft.

[nightrider]

art338 - 2010-11-13 12:06 AM

 

I've always thought but not done it, due to age and little space around the house.

 

That the best form of low heating is to drill a hole in the garden as deep as possible 40ft (?) and about 4" in diameter, insert a double set of tubes to the bottom.

 

Fit as many radiators as possible in the house.

 

Connect both parts to a pump, fill with water, and live in luxury. I believe the earths guarranteed temperature would be 55f at all times. (it is in UK caves)

 

Fit a secondary system hot water system to add that little extra at cold times

 

art

I drilled a 60' deep bore hole in my garden, but oil came out of it and ruined my lawn, not one of my best idea's?

[Syd]

peter - 2010-11-15 10:24 PM

 

If the air is warm, then your lot insulation in not good enough and you are paying to heat your loft.

 

 

Sorry Peter but you are quiet wrong in your assumption that my insulation in the loft is not good enough.

In fact this proves that the insulation in the roof is very good, the warm air simply shows that the insulation around our hot water tank is not good enough as that is what is warming up the loft.

That is my next project

[Brian Kirby]

I think you may be at cross purposes, Chaps.  I think Peter is thinking the insulation is across the back of the ceiling joists, whereas I think Syd has installed it beneath the rafters.  Cold roof vs warm roof?  Mind, if that is true, Syd is heating his roof (space).  :-)