Uplift Payload 3500 to 3850

[bromleyxphil]

Hi

I have been in contact with sv tech about uprating my payload from 3500 to 3850. To do this I have to uprate the rear axle from 2000kg to 2240. I have to add air suspension "they recommend VB Air" and uprate the tyres to a load index of 112.

I have a few of questions

1 Anyone done it?

2 I have continental vanco camper 215/70 R 15 CP 109R tyres on it at the moment, my tyre dealer says they don't do any rated at 112. Can I run continental vanco camper 215/70R15CP109R on the front and michelin agilis camping 225/70R15CP112Q on the rear??

3 Do I have to replace all 4 tyres.

4 how much work is involved in fitting the air assist if I do it myself...is that wise?

 

Lots of questions but you are always good to me

 

Phil

 

[Mike88]

I have only Airides but my guess is that most air assisted suspension systems are broadly similar. I looked at fitting Airides myself but the firm concerned based in Poole only charged £45 and they did it while I waited in 45 minutes while my wife and I sat in the van. You can get these fitted at motorhome shows for the same price.

 

Self fitting is relatively easy involving removing the bumpstops and replacing them with the Airide units. You then have to run two very small lines underneath the vehicle from the Airides to a dual valve and gauge which is located in the footwell between the side of the driver's seat and the door. There is some drilling involved to get the 2 lines to the valve unit. All you do then is pump up the Airides to the desired pressure through the dual valve using a cheap 12v pump available from Argos for around £20.

 

You can only see the valve unit when you open the driver's door. The arrangement is totally unobtrusive. Do they work? Yes and the quality of the ride is improved markedly.

 

I was unaware that air assisted suspension was required for payload to be increased although it would be a sensible addition given the increased rear axle loading. SV tech are the experts so surely they should be able to answer your question about tyres. I note you say they only "recommend" uprating the tyres so presumably this is not an absolute requirement.

[Derek Uzzell]

Phil

 

If you are going to load your Auto-Trail’s rear axle well beyond its original 2000kg limit, then the rear springs will need to be ‘beefed up’. This might be done by replacing the present springs with heavier-duty ones, adding supplementary steel springs, or fitting ‘air bellows’ like the “VB Air” product (which are effectively supplementary springs). The air-bellows approach is probably the simplest and most attractive way forward and may well be the cheapest option.

 

As you are clearly aware, the stumbling-block with this particular uprating exercise is that your Apache’s Fiat chassis’ wheels are 15” diameter and come as standard with 215/70 R15C tyres. These have a Load Index of 109 (single-wheel use), which indicates that the tyre’s design maximum load-carrying limit is 1030kg (ie. 2060kg axle-weight),. This, of course, was OK when the vehicle’s axle-weight was 2000kg but, if the weight maximum were to be increased to 2240kg, the original tyres would no longer be suitable for carrying the extra load. (I believe Mike88 is misinterpreting your original posting – if the rear-axle limit is increased to 2240kg, then you will have to uprate the tyres to match.)

 

As far as I can make out, there are no light-commercial vehicle (LCV ) tyres marketed in 215/70 R15C size with a Load Index above 109. A 2240kg axle-load will require a tyre with a Load Index of at least 112 (1120kg) and, to obtain that figure (as you’ve discovered) with a 15” wheel you’ll need to opt for a 225 width.

 

There are plenty of ‘standard’ LCV tyres in 225/70 R15C size with a 112 Load Index, but I believe you are correct in suggesting that only Michelin markets a ‘camping-car’ tyre (Agilis Camping) with that specification.

 

As far as UK regulations are concerned, I believe there are no particular reasons preventing you from fitting 225-width tyres to your Apache’s rear axle, nor demanding that you have the same size tyres all round. As long as there are no clearance problems with the slightly wider tyres, fitting 225-width tyres at the back and retaining 215-width tyres at the front should be fine. You would have (in theory at least) a bit more grip at the rear, but I doubt this would be noticeable or significant. Of course, if your Auto-Trail currently has a spare wheel, it would subsequently only be suitable for fitting to the front wheels.

 

The Fiat X250 4-tonne ‘Maxi’ chassis has, as standard, 16” wheels shod with tyres with a greater load-carrying capability. However, uprating to 16” wheels would not be a viable (and certainly not a cost effective) proposition in your case.

[Guest JudgeMental]

In my search for a 3500kg panel van I have been offered a German Goldsmitt air suspension conversion to up rate from 3300kg van to the 3500kg but this does nothing to the axle so axle loadings remain the same I think...I have been quoted 680 euro approx £590 for this......

 

just hope when it comes to registering vehicle in the UK they recognise the upgrade? *-)

[snail]

Hi Phil, I have just been through the process of uprating my van, although I have gone from 3850 to 4100 on maxi chassis Hymer.

I have had air-ride fitted at £515 and for the fitting cost of £45 included, couldn't be bothered to crawl about under the van, this is the second van i've had air-ride on and has been very good.

My rear tyres were on the limit for my new weight, so i decided to uprate these and now have different tyres front and back, £250 ish for the two, i don't consider that in the case of a puncture and having to use the spare, driving accordingly to a garage for replacement any different than using a space saver on a car? but i'm sure some will not agree, personal choice and advice from my tyre fitter.

Sv tech did my paper work for me with a new plate to stick on etc, and letter to go to dvla for revenue weight change, anther ££250,

This is where we differ as you will be going above 3500kg and into a

different taxation class, PrivateHGV, and roadtax is presently £165.00, which i think is less than yours, you may want to check with dvla about this first, also there will be license issuse at 70 years of age.

So all in all it was a straight forward process for me, and my new logbook has come back ok with no problems, although for me at a cost of £1000, to enable scooter carrying, still much cheaper than changing the van, I hope my experience of this is of some use to you, best of luck Brian

[lennyhb]

My van has the Vanco 215/70R15CP yet the Hymer plate on the van gives the rear axle load as 2400kg.

 

 

[bromleyxphil]

Wow

Thats what I call good clear and rapid information

Thanks to you all, I think I now see the way forward

Phil

[bromleyxphil]

Anyone used "VB air" as opposed to the airide?

[Robinhood]

lennyhb - 2010-11-12 11:00 AM

 

My van has the Vanco 215/70R15CP yet the Hymer plate on the van gives the rear axle load as 2400kg.

 

 

Must admit that if there isn't more to this than meets the eye I'd be somewhat worried.

 

As already mentioned above, the load index for these tyres should be 109, which would limit any axle weight to 2060kg at the absolute maximum.

 

Are you sure about both figures? (Have you misread the axle loading figure? Are you actually on a Maxi with 16" wheels?)

 

If you're still convinced you're right, check the load index on the tyres, if it is 109, then something is very wrong.

 

(I would suspect you're on 215/75 R16CP which would allow a max axle loading of up to 2500kg)

[Guest JudgeMental]

its all in here...

 

http://www.goldschmitt.de/img/katalogdownload/Goldschmitt-Katalog_2010_Web_EN.pdf

[lennyhb]

Robinhood - 2010-11-12 11:52 AM

 

lennyhb - 2010-11-12 11:00 AM

 

My van has the Vanco 215/70R15CP yet the Hymer plate on the van gives the rear axle load as 2400kg.

 

 

Must admit that if there isn't more to this than meets the eye I'd be somewhat worried.

 

As already mentioned above, the load index for these tyres should be 109, which would limit any axle weight to 2060kg at the absolute maximum.

 

Are you sure about both figures? (Have you misread the axle loading figure? Are you actually on a Maxi with 16" wheels?)

 

If you're still convinced you're right, check the load index on the tyres, if it is 109, then something is very wrong.

 

(I would suspect you're on 215/75 R16CP which would allow a max axle loading of up to 2500kg)

 

They are 15" tyres & state "Max load single 1030kg"

 

Hymer plate :

Max 3500kg

Front 2100kg

Rear 2400kg

 

Fiat plate under the bonnet:

Max 3500kg

Front 1850kg

Rear 2000kg.

 

 

As far as I am aware the converters plate overrides the chassis plate I think I will see what Hymer Germany's response is.

 

But the Certificate of Conformity (issued by Hymer) states Front axle 1850kg Rear 2000kg so it looks like Hymer have made a boo boo on their plate.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Robinhood]

lennyhb - 2010-11-12 12:45 PM

 

As far as I am aware the converters plate overrides the chassis plate I think I will see what Hymer Germany's response is.

 

But the Certificate of Conformity (issued by Hymer) states Front axle 1850kg Rear 2000kg so it looks like Hymer have made a boo boo on their plate.

 

 

It should override, but you can't beat physics, the tyres don't look up to the weight on the plate.

 

As you say, looks like a "ein Fehler".

[Meadows Engine]

I have a Murvi Morello 3ltr Comfort Matic , and discovered at the end of my first year that it was over its 3500kg with just a modest amount (225kg) on board and with out my good lady. Since she insists on coming with me (and the fact it was no longer road legal) something had to be done.

 

Up-rating was the only option but this was complicated by the fact that whilst the rear axle was well within its limits (2000kg) it was the front axle that was overloaded and increasing the vans carrying capacity to 3850 kg (by fitting air ride type units to the rear) was of no use as part of the gained additional capacity was bound to further overloaded the front axle.

 

Fortunately a new air system was developed earlier this year for the front end of the Ducato and this was fitted by AB Air Suspension which enabled the van to be up rated to 3850kg giving me full use of the additional pay load.

 

I understand that system was developed because of a problem with over weight front axles (even when the van was within its max weight), particularly with the larger engine and “over cab” type layouts.

 

I can confirm it transformed my Morello, enabled my wife to join me touring and gave us a reasonable if not exciting payload and of course it meant we were legal again. The only down side was having to move into private heavy goods class and the £3200 cost!

 

I hope this helps

 

John

 

[lennyhb]

Can't use that excuse my good lady only weighs 40kg. (lol) (lol) (lol)

 

 

[Guest JudgeMental]

Meadows Engine - 2010-11-12 4:27 PM

 

Fortunately a new air system was developed earlier this year for the front end of the Ducato and this was fitted by AB Air Suspension which enabled the van to be up rated to 3850kg giving me full use of the additional pay load.

 

I understand that system was developed because of a problem with over weight front axles (even when the van was within its max weight), particularly with the larger engine and “over cab” type layouts.

 

I can confirm it transformed my Morello, enabled my wife to join me touring and gave us a reasonable if not exciting payload and of course it meant we were legal again. The only down side was having to move into private heavy goods class and the £3200 cost!

 

I hope this helps

 

John

 

Crazy money......Have a look at my Goldsdmitt link above they supply all these kits front and rear with paperwork at a fraction of the cost........

[Derek Uzzell]

lennyhb - 2010-11-12 12:45 PM

 

Robinhood - 2010-11-12 11:52 AM

 

lennyhb - 2010-11-12 11:00 AM

 

My van has the Vanco 215/70R15CP yet the Hymer plate on the van gives the rear axle load as 2400kg.

 

 

Must admit that if there isn't more to this than meets the eye I'd be somewhat worried.

 

As already mentioned above, the load index for these tyres should be 109, which would limit any axle weight to 2060kg at the absolute maximum.

 

Are you sure about both figures? (Have you misread the axle loading figure? Are you actually on a Maxi with 16" wheels?)

 

If you're still convinced you're right, check the load index on the tyres, if it is 109, then something is very wrong.

 

(I would suspect you're on 215/75 R16CP which would allow a max axle loading of up to 2500kg)

 

They are 15" tyres & state "Max load single 1030kg"

 

Hymer plate :

Max 3500kg

Front 2100kg

Rear 2400kg

 

Fiat plate under the bonnet:

Max 3500kg

Front 1850kg

Rear 2000kg.

 

 

As far as I am aware the converters plate overrides the chassis plate I think I will see what Hymer Germany's response is.

 

But the Certificate of Conformity (issued by Hymer) states Front axle 1850kg Rear 2000kg so it looks like Hymer have made a boo boo on their plate.

 

The 2100kg(front-axle) and 2400kg(rear-axle) weight-maxima relate to a Fiat X/250 Ducato 40 ('maxi') 4005kg MAM chassis. The 1850kg(F) and 2000kg® relate to a Ducato 35 3500kg MAM chassis.

 

Assuming that your Hymer is UK-registered as PLG (up to 3500kg MAM) and you aren't exceeding the 1850kg/2000kg limits, then it probably doesn't matter much that the Hymer data-plate is in conflict. Nevertheless, it would be worth taking the matter up with Hymer just in case there's a logical explanation for the apparent anomaly.

[Meadows Engine]

Hi Judge

Very interesting thanks for the info but in the case of up rating the new Ducato front suspension the existing front suspension units have to be removed and then re-placed with new air assist/controlled ones. Not a job you could entertain your self, unfortunately you cant just bolt a couple of air ride type units on the front .

 

I went up to the old Leyland test center to have mine done, what a huge impressive vehicle test centre checking out new vehicles from all over the world from HGV’s to exotic sports cars. It took six specialist mechanics eight hours to do the job using specialised pits and lift equipment.

 

I was put up in a nearby office so I could see what was involved, I know my way round a spanner but its definitely a “no way” for DIY.

 

Talking to the guys there they said they have a growing demand for them and most are fitted to over cab outfits as they seem to suffer from over loaded fronts.

 

You are right its silly money but what else do you do having spent most of the kids inheritance on a new motorhome only to find it can’t do what it says on the tin.

 

John

 

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

bromleyxphil - 2010-11-12 8:19 AM Hi I have been in contact with sv tech about uprating my payload from 3500 to 3850. ................. Phil

Obvious, I know, but do check what your driving licence entitles you to drive, and remember that you'll need to pass a medical at 70 to retain the right to drive vehicles heavier than 3,500kg.

[Guest JudgeMental]

Hi John, I tried to find the quote from Promobil magazine where an overweight 3 litre auto hymer 322 panel van had the Goldshmitt treatment on FRONT axle...from memory it was around 1000 euro (£850). this was from 3300 to 3500 not 3850 like yours. I just think you need to shop around before spending such large sums,,,,,,

[Derek Uzzell]

bromleyxphil - 2010-11-12 11:19 AM

 

Anyone used "VB air" as opposed to the airide?

 

I believe the UK importer for VB Air products may have a link to Drinkwater Engineering that has (had?) a long history of modifying vehicle chassis. If you use the link below and click on the "Dealers" box, you'll find a map showing UK agents, one of which may be near you and can provide details/prices of the products.

 

http://www.vbairsuspension.co.uk/en/

 

There are other alternatives to "Airride". For example:

 

http://www.marcleleisure.co.uk/store/air-suspensions-c-58.html

 

or

 

http://www.al-ko.co.uk/chassis-airtop.htm

 

 

[lennyhb]

Derek Uzzell - 2010-11-12 6:36 PM

 

lennyhb - 2010-11-12 12:45 PM

 

Robinhood - 2010-11-12 11:52 AM

 

lennyhb - 2010-11-12 11:00 AM

 

My van has the Vanco 215/70R15CP yet the Hymer plate on the van gives the rear axle load as 2400kg.

 

 

Must admit that if there isn't more to this than meets the eye I'd be somewhat worried.

 

As already mentioned above, the load index for these tyres should be 109, which would limit any axle weight to 2060kg at the absolute maximum.

 

Are you sure about both figures? (Have you misread the axle loading figure? Are you actually on a Maxi with 16" wheels?)

 

If you're still convinced you're right, check the load index on the tyres, if it is 109, then something is very wrong.

 

(I would suspect you're on 215/75 R16CP which would allow a max axle loading of up to 2500kg)

 

They are 15" tyres & state "Max load single 1030kg"

 

Hymer plate :

Max 3500kg

Front 2100kg

Rear 2400kg

 

Fiat plate under the bonnet:

Max 3500kg

Front 1850kg

Rear 2000kg.

 

 

As far as I am aware the converters plate overrides the chassis plate I think I will see what Hymer Germany's response is.

 

But the Certificate of Conformity (issued by Hymer) states Front axle 1850kg Rear 2000kg so it looks like Hymer have made a boo boo on their plate.

 

The 2100kg(front-axle) and 2400kg(rear-axle) weight-maxima relate to a Fiat X/250 Ducato 40 ('maxi') 4005kg MAM chassis. The 1850kg(F) and 2000kg® relate to a Ducato 35 3500kg MAM chassis.

 

Assuming that your Hymer is UK-registered as PLG (up to 3500kg MAM) and you aren't exceeding the 1850kg/2000kg limits, then it probably doesn't matter much that the Hymer data-plate is in conflict. Nevertheless, it would be worth taking the matter up with Hymer just in case there's a logical explanation for the apparent anomaly.

 

That was the conclusion I had come to, which means if I decide to uprate to 3850kg I will only gain about 130kg - 150kg due to the rear axle limit based on my weighbridge checks. Due to the van layout it is very unlikely that however I load the van very little of the additional weight will be transferred to the front axle.

 

 

 

 

[Meadows Engine]

Judge

The equivalent system in your catalogue to the one I had fitted is 3494 euros say around £2908 and I would have to go to Germany to have it fitted at their HQ plus the upgrade paper work from Sv.Tech. So pretty close, but still pain full.

 

Derek

Oliver Drinkwater is the MD of VB Airsuspension UK Ltd and at one time I believe was Drinkwater Suspensions or some thing similar. I have no connections with them other than to say they did a good job for me.

 

Brian

As all this happened in the run up to my 70th and a 6 week tour of France. It was all very hectic, the medical was no problem but getting my new licence and class change documents through DVLA in time was a nightmare. Its particularly annoying when you trust a company’s “25 years design experience” to build a motorhome for you and have to spend over £3000 and move it into private heavy goods so you can use it (Not a clever move when 70 is on the horizon)

 

John

 

 

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

Have to say I'm really surprised the Morello came out so heavy.  The van itself isn't that heavy, otherwise it would never earn its keep.  Murvi has been making Morellos for years, they don't really stick that much furniture into them, and the payloads other converters quote on the same base vehicle seem to be around the 6-700kg mark (for 3,500kg MAM).  You didn't specify nuclear radiation protection for yours, did you?  :-)

[Guest JudgeMental]

Thanks John I did not realise the prices where so similar.....I tend to speed read through the threads but have re read yours properly*-) it is disgraceful that you have had to do this. I am diabetic so stuck with 3500kg and you would think this ample in a panel van wouldn't you! :-S

[Derek Uzzell]

I'm sure it's been said in the past, but weighbridges intended for 40-tonne Monster Trucks may lack pin-point accuracy.

 

I've weighed my current Hobby motorhome and my previous Herald Templar - the Herald out of curiosity and the Hobby because I needed to obtain real-life axle loadings so I could adjust tyre pressures to match.

 

I was slightly startled by the Herald figures as they suggested that the Herald models larger than the Templar would probably be overweight, but the figures for my own motorhome seemed to be 'about right' despite the (free) French weighbridge looking very rough-and-ready.

 

The read-outs for the Hobby, obtained from a less disreputable (pay) French weighbridge, held no surprises and, although I needed to do some mental number-juggling to allow for potential 100% full-load conditions, it was plain that the vehicle would never exceed its overall or axle weight limits during my ownership.

 

However, in both cases, I was assuming that the weighbridge I was using was near-enough accurate.

 

Now, it has to be said that the useful payload of many motorhomes is not huge. I note that MMM quotes the payload of a current model Auto-Trail Apache 634 (with 2.3litre motor) as 295kg, so I guess Phil's 2009 version is much the same. This ain't much to begin with and will rapidly erode once an awning, bikes, passengers and luggage are added. So it's not surprising that uprating the vehicle's weight limits is an attractive idea. Having said that, before going down a route that inevitably will require altering the tyre sizes on at least two wheels, I'd really, really want to be absolutely certain how much the motorhome actually weighs. Basically, I'd want a weighbridge second (or even third) opinion.

 

If Phil's Apache is only marginally overweight when in holiday-trim, then switching to smaller/lighter gas bottles, travelling with a reduced quantity of fresh-water and/or usng lightweight bikes may be sufficient to avoid uprating. Running a vehicle that's unnecessarily heavy is a no-win strategy - fuel consumption is increased, acceleration is harmed, braking and road-holding will all be affected adversely. If it's realistically practicable to operate the Apache within its present legal limits, then that's the sensible way to go in my view. Of course, if the Apache is currently seriously overweight, that's another matter.