European gravy train?

[Guest pelmetman]

Should be an interesting program tonight on channel 4 about the european gravy train :D

 

I will only get to see the last 30 mins as er in doors will want to watch Eastenders *-)

[Mel B]

Isn't it repeated an hour later on a freeview channel?

[Klyne]

Mel B - 2010-11-15 7:16 PM

 

Isn't it repeated an hour later on a freeview channel?

 

It will be lumpy by then (lol)

 

David

[Bulletguy]

Mel B - 2010-11-15 7:16 PM

 

Isn't it repeated an hour later on a freeview channel?

4+1 at 9pm.

 

I'll watch it later or tomorrow as i've recorded it.

[Guest peter]

Watching it at the moment. This lot make our fiddling MP's look like angels.

[Guest pelmetman]

Watched it on 4+1, thanks Mel forgot about that channel :D

 

Maybe I shouldn't watch programs like that anymore as it doesn't do my blood pressure any good >:-(

 

We then watched "Coppers" bit of an eye openner 8-) It seems to me most of the people they arrest get let off *-)

[CliveH]

I think the MEP's were summed up for me when after being found guilty on two separate occasions of wrongdoing in the UK such that he could not be a member of the UK government on said two occasions, he was whisked off to the EU where his past actions enabled him to fit right in very easily!

 

Now - I am not anti Europe - I think some of the checks and balances they apply to the over zealous bureaucrats here in the UK is a good thing. But they are not immune from stupidity or greed themselves.

 

I still say a lot of what Europe suggests is sensible "if it fits!" - if it does not then countries like France just ignore the "directives" - whereas in the UK the directives get "gold plated" and an even more extreme interpretations becomes Law!

 

Have not seen the programme yet - but with Eire going down the tubes as we write - I doubt that the Euro in its present form is going to last.

 

Thank goodness we are not part of that mess, tho the fallout is likely to affect us.

 

[net-traveller]

Didn't see the programme but I'm aware that the EU accounts haven't been signed off for 10+ years. Apparently the auditors have serious concerns i.e fraud.

 

If the EU was a bog standard company the SFO would have been in so fast that the words 'rat' and 'drainpipe' would have been appropriate.

 

To me that is the biggest matter concern and I cannot understand why nothing is being done about it. If countries withheld their annual contribution surely that would force the issue or am I just naive?

 

 

[Corky 8]

I watched with disbelief,the arrogance of those defrauding the tax payers,its all Legal they say, does Morals or Ethics not exist anymore ? its only weeks since the announcement of the Benefit shake up, and all the so called state scroungers (unemployed) will get there cum -uppance ,for being Idle and not wanting to work for minimum wage,(seems like a smoke screen now) Yet these Blighters swindle, cheat ,defraud , and its all ok for them its Legal ,its written in the rules they wrote themselves, all the hype from the Pro European lobby was Because they knew what a gravy train it was and all they wanted was  to get aboard.    Vote .....never again we shape nothing,once in they do as they please, they should all be hanging from Lamp posts in Strasbourg, and all our MPs along Pall Mall.

[Bulletguy]

Corky 8 - 2010-11-16 2:27 PM

 

I watched with disbelief,the arrogance of those defrauding the tax payers,its all Legal they say, does Morals or Ethics not exist anymore ?

For most of them morals and ethics are not in their vocabulary. Their agenda is to screw as much as possible in the time available and they don't give a flying fig where that money comes from as long as it ends up in their own pockets.

 

 

The two people who stood out for me was the Austrian MEP who was very outspoken over the abuse of allowances, and also the guy who used to advise the UK Government on farming. He told how wealthy farmers and land owners become even more wealthy with huge subsidies going to them, whilst the poorest farmers get nothing. Nothing new there then!

 

 

[Guest peter]

Pitywe don't have anyone that could make a difference on this forum. Might be an eyeopener. The problem is, Cameron and his cronies and the previous lot haven't got the faintest idea what's going on and how it angers the man in the street. The other problem is, the man in the street feels powerless to make a difference and if they complain to those that can, they know sod all will be done about it. No wonder that we get riots and demonstrations occasionally, it's the only way that the morons in power can be made to see that we are well p*ssed off with all this blatant duplicity and corruption.

Sooner or later Pensioners will descend on Parliament and let them know they are no longer dealing with the compliant "Oldies" that they are used to. They seem to forget we started the youth revolution and grew up with "The Stones" and all the other Rockers. We are not going to go to "Tea Dances" and sit there with a cuppa and a stupid cake. We aren't going to be fobbed off by these plonkers, so there.

That's it I feel a lot better now.

[nowtelse2do]

net-traveller - 2010-11-16 12:37 PM Didn't see the programme but I'm aware that the EU accounts haven't been signed off for 10+ years. Apparently the auditors have serious concerns i.e fraud.

I believe it's 16yr's. And they give the reason as fraud every time.

Dave

[flicka]

CliveH - 2010-11-16 9:18 AM

 

Have not seen the programme yet - but with Eire going down the tubes as we write - I doubt that the Euro in its present form is going to last.

 

Thank goodness we are not part of that mess, tho the fallout is likely to affect us.

 

Sorry Clive,

Unfortunately, it looks like we are due to be affected very shortly.

If Eire is rescued by the EU, the UK is committed to 12% of any rescue package, a quoted to be Euro60bn/£57bn.

Apparently this is due to an agreement signed last year by our illustrous former leader Grabbing Gordon.

Was that guy on commission >:-( >:-( >:-( >:-(

Yet another fact obscured at the time.

What next.

Oh, I know, while we are at it, lets compensate them who went to Quantamalo holiday camp.

And we can all guess where that money will end up.

Removal of their UK Passports & a refusal to allow them back into the country would have been a lot cheaper or a few bullets.

 

[nowtelse2do]

Said it before and will say it again, the sooner were out of the EU the better.

Has Britain ever gained anything by joining the EU?

Dave

[Mel B]

Yup ... Pet Passports!!!!!!! :-D

[Brian Kirby]

nowtelse2do - 2010-11-16 10:51 PM

..............Has Britain ever gained anything by joining the EU?

Dave

But equally, has it ever truly lost anything?  What it has gained, I would say, is access to a huge market without additional export tariffs - remember them?  If we have failed to fully capitalise on the advantages that gives us, whose fault is that?  Theirs, or ours?

There has to be win and lose, give and take.  If all you want is win and win and take and take, you won't fine a single international trading block that will let you in on your own terms.  Then try exporting.

[BGD]

nowtelse2do - 2010-11-16 10:51 PM

Said it before and will say it again, the sooner were out of the EU the better.

Has Britain ever gained anything by joining the EU?

Dave

Yes.Access to a market which accounts for 80% of all UK exported products.

[Guest pelmetman]

Thats the nub of the matter :D

 

When we were conned into joining back in the 70's, we thought we were joining a common market (!)

 

No one mentioned a european superstate with fat cat con merchants helping their selves to our taxes at every opportunity >:-(

 

I'd like to see the whole lot doing a "Mussolini" from their nearest lamp post >:-)

[nowtelse2do]

BGD - 2010-11-18 2:27 PM

nowtelse2do - 2010-11-16 10:51 PM

Said it before and will say it again, the sooner were out of the EU the better.

Has Britain ever gained anything by joining the EU?

Dave

Yes. Access to a market which accounts for 80% of all UK exported products.

Sorry BGD.

 More like 60%, and you fail to mention that we import more than that from the EU.

They need us more than we need them.

So if we pulled out of the EU are you thinking that they would not trade with us? Don't forget this is 'Treasure Island' to them + a lot more countries as well.

Brian, we don't get out anywhere near even to what we contribute, and the cost is rising. There is only one party on a win win and it ain't us!!

Dave

Dave

[BGD]

nowtelse2do - 2010-11-19 12:21 AM

BGD - 2010-11-18 2:27 PM

nowtelse2do - 2010-11-16 10:51 PM

Said it before and will say it again, the sooner were out of the EU the better.

Has Britain ever gained anything by joining the EU?

Dave

Yes. Access to a market which accounts for 80% of all UK exported products.

Sorry BGD.

 More like 60%, and you fail to mention that we import more than that from the EU.

They need us more than we need them.

So if we pulled out of the EU are you thinking that they would not trade with us? Don't forget this is 'Treasure Island' to them + a lot more countries as well.

Brian, we don't get out anywhere near even to what we contribute, and the cost is rising. There is only one party on a win win and it ain't us!!

Dave

Dave

Dave - have a look at the 2009 figures in the Blue Book (National Accounts). I stand corrected, the exact number was not 80%; it was 78.3% of total UK exports were sold to other EU countries. Seems UK papers rounded up to the 80% they have quoted.

[Brian Kirby]

pelmetman - 2010-11-18 2:36 PM Thats the nub of the matter :D When we were conned into joining back in the 70's, we thought we were joining a common market (!)

Speak for your self, I wasn't conned.  I voted for it, and remain in favour of it.  :-)

 No one mentioned a european superstate with fat cat con merchants helping their selves to our taxes at every opportunity >:-( I'd like to see the whole lot doing a "Mussolini" from their nearest lamp post >:-)

Then I think you may have been reading the wrong papers, watching the wrong TV, or listening to the wrong radio, at the time.  :-D

There is no European "superstate" as yet.  There probably never will be, though the EC will carry on changing in the future, as it has in the past.  When we joined, the EC was much smaller.  Mrs T resisted the idea of deepening, instead wanting broadening, of the EC.  This was supposed to be the poisoned chalice, that would stop further deepening, because the burden of integrating the extra countries would make it impossible.  What I think she, and it seems a lot of other people, never understood, is that to function as a common market, the EC has to have a degree of political integration.  Lowering tariff barriers between states, in the interests of increased trade, can only work over the longer term if the fiscal and financial environments of those states are brought into some kind of alignment.  Similarly, if goods are to be freely and efficiently traded, bringing price benefits to consumers, it is preferable for a single design to be acceptable in all states rather then each state having its own standards, designed to favour its own goods at the expense of imports. 

What we got was the broadening - which in my view was not so clever - followed by a gradual deepening that led eventually to the introduction of the Euro.  The Euro is fine, one currency for all transactions across all the Euroland states.  It saves a fortune in exchange charges, and it means cross border prices can be quoted with confidence.  Its flaw is that the rules were relaxed to draw more countries in, to give it necessary critical mass, and those relaxations are now haunting the Euroland states.  The Germans, in particular, would have had far tougher rules from the outset, which is partially why they are such strident critics of Portugal, Italy, Ireland, Greece, and to a lesser extent Spain, all of which countries cheated to get in, were known to be cheating to get in, but ultimately were allowed in against their better judgement.  Now there is a mess, and the Euroland states have to sort it out.

I expect them to succeed, and I expect the Euro to be the better for it.  Ultimately, we shall join.  Many may disagree, and many may at present think it would be a bad thing if we did, but I think in due course we shall, because we shall become unable to sustain our small floating currency against the Dollar, the Euro, the Rupee, and the Renminbi.  The speculators will eventually give Sterling such a hard time, because they can influence its value for their short term gains, that our industry will become unable to trade effectively with other countries, because of its see-sawing value.  Then, as ever, we shall be left pleading for admission, and the other Euro states may not be so keen because of the state our economy will be in, and because by then Sterling will be trading below its true value against the Euro, which will be perceived as giving us unfair advantage.

Now, all I have to do is sit back and wait, and at some future date, say "I told you so"!  And I shall. :-D

[Guest pelmetman]

Brian Kirby - 2010-11-19 5:19 PM

Now, all I have to do is sit back and wait, and at some future date, say "I told you so"!  And I shall. :-D

 

Reckon you will have a long wait Brian :D

 

 

[teflon2]

Hi Brian just to give a few answers. We were sold the E.U. as the common market, if they don't want a superstate why change the name. What have we lost. Control over our borders, we are reliant on borders way beyond our own. The USSR collapsed without a whimper pehaps they could see an easier way to create a socialist europe. Remember socialists plan for decades not just 4 years. As to I told you.so don't hold your breath. *-) John.

[Brian Kirby]

teflon2 - 2010-11-19 7:58 PM Hi Brian just to give a few answers. We were sold the E.U. as the common market, if they don't want a superstate why change the name. What have we lost. Control over our borders, we are reliant on borders way beyond our own. The USSR collapsed without a whimper pehaps they could see an easier way to create a socialist europe. Remember socialists plan for decades not just 4 years. As to I told you.so don't hold your breath. *-) John.

Sorry John, don't agree.  "We" were not "sold" the EC as just a common market.  I never had any doubts that it was a work in progress, that it would change, and go on changing, and that the result of those changes would be closer, and closer, integration.  What you thought you were sold seems be based on what some salesman told you was in the tin.  I never listen to salesmen, I read the label on the tin.

Control over our borders?  To some extent that is true, and to some extent false.  I assume you have in mind people from the old eastern Europe, who have entered the UK? From Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Slovakia, Bulgaria, Roumania.  Their accession to the EC was the natural by-product of the Conservative desire to broaden the EC. 

However, I assume you have no great problem with people from the "old" EC entering the UK?  From France, Italy, Spain, Germany, Belgium, Holland, Luxembourg, Denmark, Sweden, and Portugal?  And what of all the others, from countries that are not in the EC?  The Australians, Americans, New Zealanders, South Africans, Canadians, Indians, Pakistanis, Chinese, Russians, Kenyans, Nigerians etc etc, over whose entry we have complete control outside EC treaties, but did/do not exclude.  Why so selective? 

The USSR is still collapsing, and it is not all without a whimper.  East and North of Turkey isn't exactly a bed of roses for a start. 

Where are these "socialists", by which I assume you really mean communists?  What is this, some kind of grand conspiracy theory?  Is your implication that you think they just pretended to collapse, so that they can infiltrate us, and then take us over when we aren't looking, or what?  Sorry, really don't follow your line of argument.

[Guest pelmetman]

Just a question Brian, assuming our politicans will have to ask us if we want to join the Euro :D

 

How do you think they will change our minds? as I suspect the UK majority is dead set against any further integration, and by association the Euro.