Waste containers in sub-zero temperatures

[Way2Go]

During our visit to Germany last December our under slung fresh water and grey waste containers froze up so I thought I'd have a go at lagging the outside under slung tanks during the year.

Having spent most of my spare time making Christmas presents I haven't actually got around to it so thought I'd try doing what I've seen others do in that you put a waste container on the ground and leave the waste valve open.

I then got to thinking whether this was a good idea or not.  Surely I'll just be swapping a frozen under slung tank for an on-the-ground frozen tank.  I'd still have no way of emptying it until next March . . . . OK an exaggeration but can anyone tell me what I'm missing here?

[Guest pelmetman]

I use a bucket in cold weather, because if it freezes no problem, you just leave a giant ice cube on waste drain :D

[nuevoboy]

All this is assuming the water remains liquid long enough to escape the drain from the sink, then through the pipe and into and (hopefully) out of the drain tank. *-)

 

I drained down all tanks last week and despite driving the 'van around, I'm still noticing a few icicles forming from the drain taps.

Although we haven't had the really low temperatures here in Pembrokeshire, I checked the temperature inside the 'van this morning.

It registered minus 2.3 deg.C. 8-)

 

We're off to the Forest of Dean at the weekend and I am contemplating using all water in washing up bowls and then emptying direct into a bucket outside. I thought this might be safer than allowing any water into the drain tanks in these temperatures.

[maggyd]

Just a thought W2G :-D could you put a tablepoon of salt in the bottom of the bucket? that would if not stop it freezing! be easier to tip out!! Aldi have bags of salt at 23p I know I bought about half a dozen last week to put on the drive. ;-)

[art338]

Yes W2G, you're missing that all buckets are tapered!

 

If any liquid freezes its simply a matter of turning it over and giving it a knock, the solid block then falls out, if it refuses to move then poor some hot water over it.

 

Make sure you buy a good bucket, cheap ones may shatter when cold if they receive a knock, due to having little or no Uv material added.

 

The black ones that builders use are the best and cheap, they are well used to being battered about. Available from B&Q or builders merchants.

 

As most of the waste liquid will be warm or hot ... freezing of the outlet pipe should not occur unless extremely windy.

 

art

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

nuevoboy - 2010-12-01 3:53 PM

 

...We're off to the Forest of Dean at the weekend and I am contemplating using all water in washing up bowls and then emptying direct into a bucket outside. I thought this might be safer than allowing any water into the drain tanks in these temperatures.

 

Best of luck - I live about 10 miles from the Forest of Dean and I can assure you that -3°C would be considered positively balmy here at the moment.

 

I remember seeing a PVC motorhome using the 'bucket method' years ago at the CC Baltic Wharf campsite. In that instance the waste-water hose, presumably the one from the kitchen-sink, had been disconnected from the exterior waste-tank and led directly into the bucket. I guess ablutions would have been performed in the san facs (whatever they are!)

 

I'm sure it's better to use an open plastic bucket from which (as pelmetman says) ice can be emptied easily, than a WasteMaster-type thingy that coiuld easily end up as a solid frozen block.

[david lloyd]

In these temps we also use a (shallow) Thetford waste container but do remember that your waste outlet pipe from the tank to the outlet tap may have a dip in it which will contain water at all times and will be the first to freeze overnight - blocking the outlet.

 

David

[Mel B]

If you can't get a bucket under your waste water outlet, use a washing up bowl, I certainly wouldn't use any sort of 'covered' container such as a tank or such like as you'll more than likely find it bursts when the water freezes, but at least then you wouldn't have a problem emptying it! :D *-)

[flicka]

Hi Way2Go

This may be suitable for you.

I am having the "Winter Pack" option fitted to our Autocruise, the same Swift option is available for your Bessacarr E560 as a Dealer fit.

Price fitted = £190, includes 12v Heaters for Fresh & Waste Water Tanks, Pipework Insulation & Fridge Vent Covers. The Heaters electrics are via the existing Control Panel & will not operate if no water is detected in the Tank.

I will still use a bucket under the Waste Outlet in Winter.

[Brian Kirby]

I think the simple thing that is possibly being missed is to empty the bucket, or whatever is used, before it freezes.  That means frequently; generally in conjunction with trips to the ski slopes, or in less exotic locations, the toilet etc.  :-)

[Way2Go]

Some great ideas there girls and boys.  I much appreciate your views.

I was thinking of getting one of those black waste containers with the red caps but having read your posts I can see that I would still have the same problem.

I'll see if I can get the 'winter pack' installed.  That sounds good and a reasonable amount to pay - thanks Flicka.

But in the meantime the bucket ideal is great (have a couple of the 'builders' ones at home) and I think we'll wash up in a bowl instead of the sink.  Many thanks to everyone.

W2G ;-)

[andy mccord]

Im off to meathop fell tommorow, my van has had a oil heater in it for the last 4 days, its roughly 8c inside now, and has been drained down fully weeks ago, it is my intention to pour antifreeze down my bathroom sink into my waste tank, and tip some also down my kitchen sink.

 

Then i plan to part fill my black waste container also with antifreeze, i believe that with the heating on full it will be sufficient to keep the pipes clear, the only other worry I have, is that I plan to fill up with water at home, becasue I suspect the standpipes on site will be well frozen, is windchill on the underslung tank :-(

 

any comments on this plan are welcome :-)

 

Andy

[Ocsid]

The problem with using antifreeze, if your talking car antifreezes based on Ethylene glycol is that ethically you now cant dump the waste into drains, sewers or the ground etc.

Its now regarded as "hazardous waste" and in my area is only accepted in certain dedicated Council Recycling centres. I had a hell of a chase around to depose of mine when I drained the Adle system.

[scramblers]

andy mccord - 2010-12-02 12:10 PM

 

Im off to meathop fell tommorow, my van has had a oil heater in it for the last 4 days, its roughly 8c inside now, and has been drained down fully weeks ago, it is my intention to pour antifreeze down my bathroom sink into my waste tank, and tip some also down my kitchen sink.

 

Then i plan to part fill my black waste container also with antifreeze, i believe that with the heating on full it will be sufficient to keep the pipes clear, the only other worry I have, is that I plan to fill up with water at home, becasue I suspect the standpipes on site will be well frozen, is windchill on the underslung tank :-(

 

any comments on this plan are welcome :-)

 

Andy

 

Hi Andy,

 

With the weather as it is, the last place I would want to go is the Lake District even though the scenery will be beautiful. The forecast for the Sunday is heavy rain, combine this with rapidly melting snow and you will have general flooding.

 

You may with to check with the Caravan Club as a number of sites have closed with bookings cancelled or offering severely restricted services ie no water due to frozen pipes.

[747]

Hi Andy,

 

Meathop Fell might be a tricky site to get into if there is a lot of snow. The weather forecast is for snow coming in from the West, so keep an eye on the forecast. I seem to remember that the entrance could be interesting for a big van on an icy road.

 

It is a nice site and is all hard standings. It always pays to ring up before you leave home.

 

Just a note regarding anti freeze. While it is true that water freezes around 0 degrees C, something added to it will alter that. You could just as easily add salt to the waste tank or some washing up liquid or the liquid type of washing powder. They are not toxic and can be handled by the waste system at the site. I am saying this because I have the feeling that Meathop may not be connected to the main sewerage system.

[andy mccord]

Many thanks for the replies, I hadnt even contemplated that antifreeze was a hazardous substance :-S Im not that far from meathop, only 20 miles as the crow flies, all A road bar the last bit up to the site, But I remember the entrance all to well 8-)

 

Regards

 

Andy

 

 

[Fionablueinky]

Hi

 

We went to Aviemore a couple of years ago skiing in our van, the underslug tank had a heater in it which worked fine and the water didn't freeze, the problem was the actual release valve which froze and we couldn't turn it to let the water out we had to use a hair dryer on it, so used the washing up bowl under the van method from then on, we couldn't fit a bucket under the van.

 

Now we have a panel van convertion, i'll shower in the campsites wash block and use a bowl in the sink and get rid of it from there, so no groveling under the van.

 

 

Fiona

[Guest JudgeMental]

Fionablueinky - 2010-12-02 3:54 PM

 

Now we have a panel van convertion, i'll shower in the campsites wash block and use a bowl in the sink and get rid of it from there, so no groveling under the van.

 

Fiona

 

we are downsizing very soon to a panel van (adria) what are they like in the winter to stay in? is the insualtion up to it?

 

This is my main concern as moving down from a fully winterised Eura that laughs at this kinda weather, Ha Ha...Ha ha ha ha :D

 

 

[david lloyd]

They can and do vary Judge - our IH is pretty well insulated and in this type of weather last december we stayed at Grassington but didn't have (or need) a silver screen - just used the on-board heating and the fitted cab blinds.

 

The technical spec should give you some comparison as to insulation levels.

 

David

[art338]

There is a weather change on the way at new moon, on TV just now I noticed south westerly's moving in from Sole and Fastnet toward Irish Sea.

 

art

[Guest JudgeMental]

david lloyd - 2010-12-02 6:56 PM

 

They can and do vary Judge - our IH is pretty well insulated and in this type of weather last december we stayed at Grassington but didn't have (or need) a silver screen - just used the on-board heating and the fitted cab blinds.

 

The technical spec should give you some comparison as to insulation levels.

 

David

 

Well I will know soon enough if I go and get it as its -8 deg c up in Munster where the dealer is :-D

[LordThornber]

art338 - 2010-12-02 7:04 PM

 

There is a weather change on the way at new moon, on TV just now I noticed south westerly's moving in from Sole and Fastnet toward Irish Sea.

 

art

 

What exactly does that translate to then Art?

 

Martyn

[flicka]

andy mccord - 2010-12-02 12:10 PM

 

, is windchill on the underslung tank :-(

 

 

 

Andy

 

Hi Andy

I raised this on a previous thread, Windchill effect on underslung water tank due to speed on road)

The concensus was that water needs to be still to allow freezing. So whilst travelling the water sloshing around in the tank will not freeze.

If worried whilst the Van is sited with wind whistling under it, it may be possible to erect some form of windbreak between the ground & Van skirt.

[silverback]

JudgeMental - 2010-12-02 4:16 PM

 

Fionablueinky - 2010-12-02 3:54 PM

 

Now we have a panel van convertion, i'll shower in the campsites wash block and use a bowl in the sink and get rid of it from there, so no groveling under the van.

 

Fiona

 

we are downsizing very soon to a panel van (adria) what are they like in the winter to stay in? is the insualtion up to it?

 

This is my main concern as moving down from a fully winterised Eura that laughs at this kinda weather, Ha Ha...Ha ha ha ha :D

 

 

 

 

are you sure you want to downsize....

have looked at your van..her indoors wanted it.. but pointed out no oven!!! whats al that about?

are you sure?? pvc small..euromobil big!! still gets where you want to go!

jon

 

[Brian Kirby]

flicka - 2010-12-02 9:18 PM

andy mccord - 2010-12-02 12:10 PM , is windchill on the underslung tank :-( Andy

Hi Andy I raised this on a previous thread, Windchill effect on underslung water tank due to speed on road) The concensus was that water needs to be still to allow freezing. So whilst travelling the water sloshing around in the tank will not freeze. ...............

Unaware of this theory.  The implication would be that movement alone of the water alone will prevent it freezing.  So, batting down the road at, say 50 mph, with the air at say -5C (probably lower at present), any heat in the water will inevitably transfer to the outside air, equally inevitably tending to draw the water temperature down towards -5C.

There seem to be two possibilities. 

1 The water chills to -5C, but remains liquid because it is moving.  You're presumably now OK as long as you keep moving until the weather improves, otherwise, expect a rapid freeze on stopping!  So don't expect to wash next morning!  :-)

2 The water just fails to lose heat to the surrounding air because it is moving.  Interesting question then arises.  Has anyone told a frozen river, or waterfall, that it is not possible for them to freeze, because their water was moving!  As above, don't expect to wash next morning................ or on arrival!  :-D