Waste containers in sub-zero temperatures

[Guest JudgeMental]

silverback - 2010-12-02 11:11 PM

 

JudgeMental - 2010-12-02 4:16 PM

 

Fionablueinky - 2010-12-02 3:54 PM

 

Now we have a panel van convertion, i'll shower in the campsites wash block and use a bowl in the sink and get rid of it from there, so no groveling under the van.

 

Fiona

 

we are downsizing very soon to a panel van (adria) what are they like in the winter to stay in? is the insualtion up to it?

 

This is my main concern as moving down from a fully winterised Eura that laughs at this kinda weather, Ha Ha...Ha ha ha ha :D

 

 

 

 

are you sure you want to downsize....

have looked at your van..her indoors wanted it.. but pointed out no oven!!! whats al that about?

are you sure?? pvc small..euromobil big!! still gets where you want to go!

jon

 

 

most european vans dont have ovens, but you can always fit one....God only knows why!

 

Yes I am sure, I want a smaller more practical and nimble vehicle...I only bought this beacuse of the kids, and as they are of at UNI had have there own plans, We can go back to the kind of vehicle we prefer. Coachbuilts are a pain in the ass in my opinion....big hulking and boring, just sit there doin nothing most of the time...

 

 

[flicka]

Brian Kirby - 2010-12-03 12:50 AM

flicka - 2010-12-02 9:18 PM

andy mccord - 2010-12-02 12:10 PM , is windchill on the underslung tank :-( Andy

Hi Andy I raised this on a previous thread, Windchill effect on underslung water tank due to speed on road) The concensus was that water needs to be still to allow freezing. So whilst travelling the water sloshing around in the tank will not freeze. ...............

Unaware of this theory.  The implication would be that movement alone of the water alone will prevent it freezing.  So, batting down the road at, say 50 mph, with the air at say -5C (probably lower at present), any heat in the water will inevitably transfer to the outside air, equally inevitably tending to draw the water temperature down towards -5C.

There seem to be two possibilities. 

1 The water chills to -5C, but remains liquid because it is moving.  You're presumably now OK as long as you keep moving until the weather improves, otherwise, expect a rapid freeze on stopping!  So don't expect to wash next morning!  :-)

2 The water just fails to lose heat to the surrounding air because it is moving.  Interesting question then arises.  Has anyone told a frozen river, or waterfall, that it is not possible for them to freeze, because their water was moving!  As above, don't expect to wash next morning................ or on arrival!  :-D

A more detailed review than on the previuos thread, Thanks Brian.Although it does pose the question after further probing through the old gray cells.On numerous sking holidays we have seen rivers with running water still flowing below freezing point. On one occasion in Canada below -30deg C.But conversely we have also seen many frozen Waterfalls.So now I am completely confused. (but SWMBO says I'm in a contstant state of confusion anyway) :-S

[Mel B]

The little river/stream running along the path into the village was running quite happily today and it was below freezing here.

 

I would imagine part of the reason that waterfalls freeze is because the water is temporarily 'passing through' air (possibly the water is also more aerated too) which is below freezing, rather than clumped together for 'warmth', and the air can get at it easier than if it is flowing en masse on a river bed, plus the river bed itself will be warmer than the air above it.

 

Just my little theory! :D

[Brian Kirby]

But surely it ain't the air temperature that counts (other than as the heat exchange medium for the water), it is the water temperature.  The water continues to flow is because it is above its freezing point, which is generally just below 0^oC.  Water takes longer to cool that air, because of its greater density, so it is quite possible for the body of water in a stream, or river, to be at just above 0^oC, and so remain liquid (or even under some conditions just below 0^oC), while the surrounding air is well below 0^oC.  So, I'm still not convinced, at least insofar as motorhome freshwater tanks are concerned.  :-)

[DJP]

flicka - 2010-12-01 8:06 PM

 

Hi Way2Go

This may be suitable for you.

I am having the "Winter Pack" option fitted to our Autocruise, the same Swift option is available for your Bessacarr E560 as a Dealer fit.

Price fitted = £190, includes 12v Heaters for Fresh & Waste Water Tanks, Pipework Insulation & Fridge Vent Covers. The Heaters electrics are via the existing Control Panel & will not operate if no water is detected in the Tank.

I will still use a bucket under the Waste Outlet in Winter.

Just be careful if you are using the tank heaters if you are NOT on hook up. These heaters can use 2-3 amps to heat the water. So 2 heaters running at 5 amps (combined) for 12 hours (overnight) can consume 60 amp hour. Obviously depends on outside temperature. Don't forget the battery performance is greatly reduced at low temperature. You MAY potentially have virtually no battery power after 1 x 12 hour period.

2 x 85 amp batteries would not survivie a 24 hour period without a full charge IMO *-)

[tonyishuk]

Simples !!

 

When water is freezing it makes sense to think that the water is getting colder. When you think of the word freezing you think of it being cold. Actually, when water freezes it stays at a constant temperature. That constant temperature is the freezing point of 32 F (0 C). Suppose you have a small cup of water that has a temperature of 50 F. You place that cup of water outside where the temperature is 20 F. There is also a thermometer in the water to record the temperature. When the water is placed outside the temperature of the water will gradually cool. The thermometer will start at 50 F and it will gradually cool. Once the temperature reaches 32 F the temperature will stop cooling. At that point the liquid will begin to turn to ice. During the entire time the liquid is converting to ice the temperature will stay at a constant of 32 F. Once all the liquid is frozen then the temperature will resume the decrease. The temperature of the ice will continue to decrease until it reaches the same temperature as the outside air which is 20 F.

 

Liquid water has more energy than frozen water. When water freezes it gives up some of the water's energy. This energy that is given up is the latent heat of freezing. When the water was freezing latent heat of freezing energy was being released. Heat energy was actually being released. It is this heat energy that prevented the temperature from continuing to cool once the temperature reached 32 F. The way to think of this is that the heat energy does not warm the temperature but rather stops the cooling. The cooling that would have occurred is perfectly offset by the latent heat energy release and thus the temperature remains constant. When a latent heat process occurs the temperature remains constant. Energy is being transferred even through the temperature is constant. A mixture of water and ice will always have an equilibrium temperature of 32 F. Only when it is only liquid or only ice will the temperature increase or decrease.

 

I new my 0 level cemhestry wood come in usefull like my enlish O levle !

 

Rgds

[flicka]

DJP - 2010-12-06 7:12 PM

 

flicka - 2010-12-01 8:06 PM

 

Hi Way2Go

This may be suitable for you.

I am having the "Winter Pack" option fitted to our Autocruise, the same Swift option is available for your Bessacarr E560 as a Dealer fit.

Price fitted = £190, includes 12v Heaters for Fresh & Waste Water Tanks, Pipework Insulation & Fridge Vent Covers. The Heaters electrics are via the existing Control Panel & will not operate if no water is detected in the Tank.

I will still use a bucket under the Waste Outlet in Winter.

Just be careful if you are using the tank heaters if you are NOT on hook up. These heaters can use 2-3 amps to heat the water. So 2 heaters running at 5 amps (combined) for 12 hours (overnight) can consume 60 amp hour. Obviously depends on outside temperature. Don't forget the battery performance is greatly reduced at low temperature. You MAY potentially have virtually no battery power after 1 x 12 hour period.

2 x 85 amp batteries would not survivie a 24 hour period without a full charge IMO *-)

 

Thanks DJP,

I e-mailed Swift technical before making the decision & they informed me that when the supply is wired through the Control Panel the Heaters operate on 12v when the Engine is running or on 230v when on EHU, i.e. same as with the Fridge.

As we only use sites with EHU during the Autumn to late Spring period, they will suit our requirements.

[AndyB]

We spent the 25th, 26th & 27th November at the CC site in Edinburgh. It

was pretty cold and snowing but the tanks and pipes were ok in our 2009 Elddis Sunseeker 120.

 

Both tanks are exposed but I kept the blown air heating on most of the time, the waste drain tap open and the freshwater tank topped up.

 

We then spent a couple of nights at the Warwick Racecourse site where it seemed a lot colder. Both drain pipes and taps froze, but thawed out by the time we drove back to London.

 

Next job is to pop down to Wickes and spend a few quid on some pipe insulation.

 

Merry Christmas

 

Andy

[AliB]

Brian Kirby - 2010-12-03 11:07 PM

 

But surely it ain't the air temperature that counts (other than as the heat exchange medium for the water), it is the water temperature.  The water continues to flow is because it is above its freezing point, which is generally just below 0^oC.  Water takes longer to cool that air, because of its greater density, so it is quite possible for the body of water in a stream, or river, to be at just above 0^oC, and so remain liquid (or even under some conditions just below 0^oC), while the surrounding air is well below 0^oC.  So, I'm still not convinced, at least insofar as motorhome freshwater tanks are concerned.  :-)

 

 

To freeze many more hydrogen bonds have to be made between the water molecules making it solid. If the water is moving then these bonds cannot be made or are broken instantly as independently each one is very weak. The force of the water overcomes the bonds easily. So the molecules remain free moving.

 

How about that for an answer? I claim no superior knowlegde I copied it from the following:

 

http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/129360

 

[Brian Kirby]

Yes, I fished around as well!  It seems there is a theory that moving water won't freeze, or at least will stay liquid well below 0^oC before beginning to do so.  I have also read statements that this theory has been debunked, and others re-stating it as fact.  It seems the purity of the water has a role to play in the formation of ice crystals, so with motorhome tank water, who knows? 

The one thing on which all seem to agree is that if the formation of ice crystals at around 0^oC is delayed by motion, the crystals will form pdq once the motion ceases!  So, water on the road, becomes ice on the site, in the twinkling of an eye.  Same result, different method!  :-)

[Brian Kirby]

Yes, I fished around as well!  It seems there is a theory that moving water won't freeze, or at least will stay liquid well below 0^oC before beginning to do so.  I have also read statements that this theory has been debunked, and others re-stating it as fact.  It seems the purity of the water has a role to play in the formation of ice crystals, so with motorhome tank water, who knows? 

The one thing on which all seemed to agree is that if the formation of ice crystals at around 0^oC is delayed by motion, the crystals will form pdq once the motion ceases!  So, water on the road, becomes ice on the site, in the twinkling of an eye.  Same result, different method!  :-)

[Colin Leake]

maggyd - 2010-12-01 3:59 PM

 

Just a thought W2G :-D could you put a tablepoon of salt in the bottom of the bucket? that would if not stop it freezing! be easier to tip out!! Aldi have bags of salt at 23p I know I bought about half a dozen last week to put on the drive. ;-)

 

Put some orange squash and a big stick in it and you've got a nice big lolly!

[nuevoboy]

Just got back from our two nights in the Forest of Dean and can report that there were no problems with waste containers....

as there was no water to flow into them!!!

The outdoor water outlets on the site were obviously frozen solid, but we were more concerned to firstly find the washing up facilities in the shelter of the toilet block frozen too.

Then we discovered that there was no running water inside the heated toilet blocks.

Actually the only running water we could use was from the laundry room and we were assured that this was drinking quality anyway.

We just filled a container to make drinks with. Boiled kettles to put into bowl to wash up with and dispose of that. Yup, even the waste pipes on site were frozen up.

Thankfully, we could shower after using the swimming pool (no iceberg in there fortunately).

Incidentally, we were told that the temperature dropped to minus 12 on Monday night, which was possibly why we awoke (sorry, I'll rephrase that as we hardly slept) we arose to a thick layer of ice on the inside of the windscreen and door windows.

Although we had hoped to use the 'van all year round, I hadn't expected to experience tempertures as low as this. 8-)

[Patricia]

Brian Kirby - 2010-12-07 12:14 PM

Yes, I fished around as well!  It seems there is a theory that moving water won't freeze, or at least will stay liquid well below 0^oC before beginning to do so.  I have also read statements that this theory has been debunked, and others re-stating it as fact.  It seems the purity of the water has a role to play in the formation of ice crystals, so with motorhome tank water, who knows? 

The one thing on which all seemed to agree is that if the formation of ice crystals at around 0^oC is delayed by motion, the crystals will form pdq once the motion ceases!  So, water on the road, becomes ice on the site, in the twinkling of an eye.  Same result, different method!  :-)

My little stream is frozen solid and that is moving water obviously

[Brian Kirby]

Patricia - 2010-12-08 10:38 PM .... My little stream is frozen solid and that is moving water obviously

Er, was, surely!  :-)

[Patricia]

Well spotted Brian and it is still "was" moving as it remains frozen!

[Brian Kirby]

All that said, Patricia, I wouldn't be surprised if there is water flowing under the ice, where it's warmer.  BTW, where are you, France or Worcester?

[Patricia]

I am sure you are correct Brian about the water running below - that is exactly how I am still managing to get water by running it very, very slowly. Back in the UK for a few weeks depending on the weather when I will return. According to the weather forecasts it is colder here than there where it is higher than Snowdon! Must get an update from my neighbours.