Presemed planning consent - Aires

[John J Thompson]

On the news yesterday it was announced that the Government had issued a notice to local planning authorities, that planning permission was no longer needed for the erection of charging points for electric cars.

 

These notices are also in force for TV antennas satellite dishes etc.

 

This type of action is all that is needed by government, to enable local authorities to set up parking places for motorhomes where they can be occupied overnight.

 

Presumed consent could also apply to the construction of service points.

 

Private owners would still have to apply for a site licence under the Caravan Sites Act but could be included in the presumed planning consent.

 

We have situations now where there are parking places where the local authorities have started and withdrawn facilities because they have been informed by their legal departments that although they can set up such facilities under the Caravan Sites Act. The legal guys consider that the authorities have to apply to them selves and go through the expense of meetings to grant themselves permission to set up a parking place that already exists.

 

It shows that they can do it when they want to.

 

John

 

[tonyg3nwl]

John Thompson - 2011-01-04 6:58 AM

 

On the news yesterday it was announced that the Government had issued a notice to local planning authorities, that planning permission was no longer needed for the erection of charging points for electric cars.

 

These notices are also in force for TV antennas satellite dishes etc.

 

This type of action is all that is needed by government, to enable local authorities to set up parking places for motorhomes where they can be occupied overnight.

 

Presumed consent could also apply to the construction of service points.

 

Private owners would still have to apply for a site licence under the Caravan Sites Act but could be included in the presumed planning consent.

 

We have situations now where there are parking places where the local authorities have started and withdrawn facilities because they have been informed by their legal departments that although they can set up such facilities under the Caravan Sites Act. The legal guys consider that the authorities have to apply to them selves and go through the expense of meetings to grant themselves permission to set up a parking place that already exists.

 

It shows that they can do it when they want to.

 

John

 

Dont forget that altough deemed consent applies in some cases. there are still restrictions appliccable. eg Satelite aerials, only one on each property, and height restrictions as well as size. and if on a listed property position must be agree to hide it from obvious view.

 

I therefore suggest that Aires adjacent to a trunk road would be controlled by ministry of transport rules for access and road safety, etc, and in or close to built up areas, there would be objections from residents to consider, access routes, number and size of permitted vehicles (eg 3.5 tonne limit etc, duration of stay, waste disposal points to have sewer access, provision of water supplies, the list goes on and on.

 

The simple answer would be to insist that ALL public authority owned car parks should be automatically obliged to provide at least 2 parking bays capable of being used for and only by Motorhomers, and have water and disposal facilities. Fire precautions would need to be agreed with fire services. Multistorey parks would have to be granted exemption because of height limits, but an alterative should be made available within their jurisdiction. Who would pay? inevitablly it would initially fall on ratepayers, to be recouped as a nightly fee on motohome users. What if there was no motorhome user wanting to use the bay each night? ergo no income. who pays?

 

deemed consent ? good or bad ?

 

tonyg3nwl

[John J Thompson]

tonyg3nwl - 2011-01-04 8:57 AM

 

John Thompson - 2011-01-04 6:58 AM

 

On the news yesterday it was announced that the Government had issued a notice to local planning authorities, that planning permission was no longer needed for the erection of charging points for electric cars.

 

These notices are also in force for TV antennas satellite dishes etc.

 

This type of action is all that is needed by government, to enable local authorities to set up parking places for motorhomes where they can be occupied overnight.

 

Presumed consent could also apply to the construction of service points.

 

Private owners would still have to apply for a site licence under the Caravan Sites Act but could be included in the presumed planning consent.

 

We have situations now where there are parking places where the local authorities have started and withdrawn facilities because they have been informed by their legal departments that although they can set up such facilities under the Caravan Sites Act. The legal guys consider that the authorities have to apply to them selves and go through the expense of meetings to grant themselves permission to set up a parking place that already exists.

 

It shows that they can do it when they want to.

 

John

 

Dont forget that altough deemed consent applies in some cases. there are still restrictions appliccable. eg Satelite aerials, only one on each property, and height restrictions as well as size. and if on a listed property position must be agree to hide it from obvious view.

 

I therefore suggest that Aires adjacent to a trunk road would be controlled by ministry of transport rules for access and road safety, etc, and in or close to built up areas, there would be objections from residents to consider, access routes, number and size of permitted vehicles (eg 3.5 tonne limit etc, duration of stay, waste disposal points to have sewer access, provision of water supplies, the list goes on and on.

 

The simple answer would be to insist that ALL public authority owned car parks should be automatically obliged to provide at least 2 parking bays capable of being used for and only by Motorhomers, and have water and disposal facilities. Fire precautions would need to be agreed with fire services. Multistorey parks would have to be granted exemption because of height limits, but an alterative should be made available within their jurisdiction. Who would pay? inevitablly it would initially fall on ratepayers, to be recouped as a nightly fee on motohome users. What if there was no motorhome user wanting to use the bay each night? ergo no income. who pays?

 

deemed consent ? good or bad ?

 

tonyg3nwl

 

Agreed Tony there will always be conditions.

 

What I find stupid is where facilities have been provided, that they are withdrawn because they have to ask themselves for permission to do it. Bureaucracy gone mad.

 

Presumed Planning consent is already in place for CLs why not for overnight halts?

[Corky 8]

Some one in the past posted this

 

 

                                 http://www.fylde.gov.uk/news/2010/oct/191010motorhome/                                                                         

Which I copied the web address and sent it to my local Council ask them to read it and Why could they not follow suit as this would bring much needed tourism into the area,also informing them that Motorhomes in the main require hard standing and Caravan site,s do not always supply this so the need for car park to supply Motorhome spaces for overnight stops,I received a reply stating it would be handed to the appropriate department, that was over two month ago ,no reply as yet, But I am Optimistic in these coming hard times for Councils, it may be worth others sending the web page to their councils just to put the idea forward, I have enough spare land to develop five hard standing places for motorhomes ,I just don't think Planning permission would be forthcoming with there being a Caravan site in the town .

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

John Thompson - 2011-01-04 6:58 AM

 

...We have situations now where there are parking places where the local authorities have started and withdrawn facilities because they have been informed by their legal departments that although they can set up such facilities under the Caravan Sites Act. The legal guys consider that the authorities have to apply to them selves and go through the expense of meetings to grant themselves permission to set up a parking place that already exists...

 

 

Could you give some specific examples, please, as I don't really understand what you've written?

[Derek Uzzell]

Corky 8 - 2011-01-04 1:33 PM...I have enough spare land to develop five hard standing places for motorhomes ,I just don't think Planning permission would be forthcoming with there being a Caravan site in the town .

 

Have you asked your local Planning Officer's opinion? With a campsite already in your town, it may well be the case that your local authority and/or local residents would oppose a development of the type you are suggesting. On the other hand, if increasing tourism in your area is felt to be important, then installing 5 hard-standings for motorhomes on your land might be considered a very good thing.

[Brian Kirby]

Derek Uzzell - 2011-01-04 1:39 PM

John Thompson - 2011-01-04 6:58 AM ...We have situations now where there are parking places where the local authorities have started and withdrawn facilities because they have been informed by their legal departments that although they can set up such facilities under the Caravan Sites Act. The legal guys consider that the authorities have to apply to them selves and go through the expense of meetings to grant themselves permission to set up a parking place that already exists...

Could you give some specific examples, please, as I don't really understand what you've written?

If it helps, I think the relevant legislation may be the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960, and not the Caravan Sites Act 1968, which is the Act that placed an obligation on councils to provide sites for gypsys.

On the face of it, it seems the authority can indeed grant itself a licence for a caravan site on any land it "occupies" (I have not explored the definition of occupies) and can attach conditions as it sees fit to use of that land, and can make such provisions as it deems necessary for the land to be so used.  Motorhomes fit within the definition of caravans as set out in the Act.  An authority using the powers granted by the Act to do this, is obliged to charge for use of the facility.

However, there has always been a concept that a council cannot grant itself permission for development, but must refer the application to the next authority in succession, so a District would need to apply to a County, and a County, or a Unitary, authority, would have to apply to the Minister (usually, hitherto, via the relevant regional Government Office).  I wonder if it this requirement John is referring to.

[John J Thompson]

Hi Derek

 

The council at Teignmouth has allowed motorhomes to overnight in two car parks but withdrew this on advice from their legal department that it involved a change of use for the car parks and that they would have to apply for planning permission to continue. http://www.teignbridge.gov.uk/index.aspx?articleid=11414

 

Hi Derek

 

I have looked into the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960 extensively. Councils can do anything according to that act. They do not require a site licence for a site they run, control or lease out to another operator in their area. There is no mention of having to seek planning permission, just as is there no mention for CLs either.

The Act allows council to take over existing sites and compulsory purchase land to provide sites.

 

 

[Corky 8]

Derek Uzzell - 2011-01-04 1:59 PM

Corky 8 - 2011-01-04 1:33 PM...I have enough spare land to develop five hard standing places for motorhomes ,I just don't think Planning permission would be forthcoming with there being a Caravan site in the town .

 

Have you asked your local Planning Officer's opinion? With a campsite already in your town, it may well be the case that your local authority and/or local residents would oppose a development of the type you are suggesting. On the other hand, if increasing tourism in your area is felt to be important, then installing 5 hard-standings for motorhomes on your land might be considered a very good thing.

Hi Derek,

            I have a strong feeling there would be public objection to the type of development I suggested,we Live on the outskirts of a Village with a narrow road  which is frequented by local and visiting Walkers also our property is near the entrance to the Earl of Galloway's Scottish residence,  I don't think the comings and goings of Motorhomes too often would be appreciated, we have friend stay a few nights quiet often  which up to now caused no concern,so think best to count our Blessings.Plus Planning officers in-law lives on the same road.Nuff said.

 

[Big Momma]

Corky 8 - 2011-01-04 1:33 PMI have enough spare land to develop five hard standing places for motorhomes ,I just don't think Planning permission would be forthcoming with there being a Caravan site in the town .

 

There are plenty of CL's/CS's around towns and villages where there are also Camp Sites so don't think that this would be a problem. There may be other issues, approach roads to your property, objections perhaps from other neighbouring property/land owners etc. etc

[Derek Uzzell]

John Thompson - 2011-01-04 6:05 PM

 

Hi Derek

 

The council at Teignmouth has allowed motorhomes to overnight in two car parks but withdrew this on advice from their legal department that it involved a change of use for the car parks and that they would have to apply for planning permission to continue. http://www.teignbridge.gov.uk/index.aspx?articleid=11414

 

Hi Derek

 

I have looked into the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960 extensively. Councils can do anything according to that act. They do not require a site licence for a site they run, control or lease out to another operator in their area. There is no mention of having to seek planning permission, just as is there no mention for CLs either.

The Act allows council to take over existing sites and compulsory purchase land to provide sites.

 

 

It's probable that Teignbridge District Council (or a sub-committee) will have met to discuss motorhome overnight parking at Dawlish Warren since the facility was withdrawn. If that's so, then there should be meeting-minutes to shed light on why there is (apparently) difficulty introducing 'permanent' motorhome parking there.

 

Having browsed through various documents on the Teignbridge Council website, it appears that provision of motorhome overnight parking is seen as a potential bonus for the area, which suggests that the Council has become aware that allowing overnighting on the car parks on a permanent basis, and installing water and wate-disposal points there, is not just a matter of saying "Let it be so".

 

I've also browsed through the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960 and I'm not sure how relevant it is to an 'aire/stop-over'. After all, motorcaravanners distinguish between a caravan site and an aire/stop-over, and one of the key arguments for introducing aires/stop-overs is that motorcaravanners don't need (or want to stay on) caravan sites.

 

I'm a councillor (albeit only a lowly parish one) and I've no specialist knowledge of planning regulations and the like. If I had been involved in trialling motorhome overnight parking at Teignbridge, wished to make that permanent and was then told by specialists in the Council's legal department that certain loops needed to be jumped through to allow that to happen, then I'd very definitely take note of that advice. That doesn't mean I'd just accept the advice as being God-given, but I certainly wouldn't ignore it. If it then transpired that the legal/bureaucratic loop-jumping would be expensive in terms of time and money, then I'd need to decide how important I felt motorhome overnight parking at Dawlish Warren to be and make the appropriate value-judgement.

 

(I haven't found anything to confirm that motorhome overnight parking at Dawlish Warren will not be re-introduced - just that it's banned while the Council considers what to do next. Is that in fact the case?)

[Brian Kirby]

I have e-mailed Teignmouth to ask if they cold kindly give a little more detail on the nature of the perceived problem.  If I get a helpful reply, I'll post further.

The Act clearly empowers councils to licence caravan sites, but seems also to allow them to restrict how such sites are used.  Within the meaning of the Act, as I read it, any "aire" type facility would be regarded as a caravan site, and motorhomes clearly fall within the definition of "caravan".  Legally, motorhomes are cars, so the presence of motorhomes on car parks should not be a planning issue per se.  One issue that might prevent car parks or parts thereof from being licenced as caravan sites, would be if the granting of permission for the car park had attached conditions restricting times of use, or possibly banning occupation of vehicles while parked.  It may.

I could not immediately see any reason why a licence could not specify use by motorcaravans only, so banning trailer caravans, nor could I see why the maximum duration of stay, or right of return, could not be restricted.  The only onerous condition that attached seemed to be that a charge must be made for use. 

I have put these points (gently!) to Teignmouth, as areas on which I should welcome clarification.  Lets hope someone will take the time to reply, as their answer may be helpful in dispelling the doubts of other councils around the country.  Fingers crossed!  :-)

[Andy_C]

As I understand it the current problem at Dawlish Warren arose when Teignbridge DC wanted to make the temporary overnight parking provision permanent. Their planning department told them that it would be a material change of use and therefore planning consent would be required. A site licence is not required, by virtue of the exemption allowed because the land is in the control of the local authority, but this particular exemption does not confer permitted development rights.

 

The latest I've heard from Teignbridge DC is that there were a number of proposals investigated and the favoured one was to consider a scheme involving the Caravan Club. The intention being to restrict the use and have a registered designated area within the site for exclusive bookable use by motorhome users only.

 

AndyC