Robingreathead Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 Timberland motorcaravans fitted with Trumatic E400 gas space heaters Any Timberland Motorcaravan owner with a Trumatic hot air space heater fitted with a floor exhaust duct would be well advised to have the installation checked by an authorised Truma Agent. Gas safety regulation require floor vents below any gas appliance (fridge, cooker etc or manifold) to allow any gas leak to dissipate and not build up in the vehicle. Truma installation instructions are adamant that if their heaters are used with a floor duct there must not be any opening to the interior. Exhaust fumes could enter the interior. This means that Timberlands use of floor ducts, for their space heaters, is incompatible with the gas safety regulations. Another problem with floor ducts is that if there is not a free flow of air around the duct, the heater fails because the exhaust gases are drawn into the heater and clog it up. The warranty is void in these circumstances. Timberland admits that they have dealt with a number of these cases and have overcome the problem by fitting an extended flue. This does not satisfy the gas safety problem however which Timberland has now verified with Truma. In my case Timberland have extended the flue to the side of the vehicle. Timberland’s defence is that they had the very first installation checked ok and all subsequent installations were installed in the same manner. The Truma installation instructions are quite clear on this however. One further point with regard to Timberland. They were taken over by a new company, Woodlands Motorhomes Ltd, last year. While they state they are willing to undertake warranty work, they are quick to point out that it is at their discretion! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 Robingreathead - 2011-01-28 5:10 PM ...............They were taken over by a new company, Woodlands Motorhomes Ltd, last year. While they state they are willing to undertake warranty work, they are quick to point out that it is at their discretion! I'm not sure this is the whole truth. If they were taken over, AFAIK, the new owner must assume responsibility for liabilities of his acquisition. This is a safety issue, so anyone getting the run around should check with Trading Standards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhorsf Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 New owner old owner same person! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robingreathead Posted January 28, 2011 Author Share Posted January 28, 2011 Don't hold your breath with Trading Standards. On another issue the seat trims were damaged by a Renault dealer while the vehicle was in for a recall. Although they are seats supplied by Renault fitted in the new van in 2009, they are ISRI seats. After over a year of wrangling, Renault state that they are unable to provide replacements! ISRI are completely uncooperative. Unbelievable. Trading Standards have dfficulty getting a reply nevermind a satisfactory answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 Robingreathead - 2011-01-28 5:10 PM Timberland motorcaravans fitted with Trumatic E400 gas space heaters Any Timberland Motorcaravan owner with a Trumatic hot air space heater fitted with a floor exhaust duct would be well advised to have the installation checked by an authorised Truma Agent. Gas safety regulation require floor vents below any gas appliance (fridge, cooker etc or manifold) to allow any gas leak to dissipate and not build up in the vehicle. Truma installation instructions are adamant that if their heaters are used with a floor duct there must not be any opening to the interior. Exhaust fumes could enter the interior. This means that Timberlands use of floor ducts, for their space heaters, is incompatible with the gas safety regulations. Another problem with floor ducts is that if there is not a free flow of air around the duct, the heater fails because the exhaust gases are drawn into the heater and clog it up. The warranty is void in these circumstances. Timberland admits that they have dealt with a number of these cases and have overcome the problem by fitting an extended flue. This does not satisfy the gas safety problem however which Timberland has now verified with Truma. In my case Timberland have extended the flue to the side of the vehicle. Timberland’s defence is that they had the very first installation checked ok and all subsequent installations were installed in the same manner. The Truma installation instructions are quite clear on this however. One further point with regard to Timberland. They were taken over by a new company, Woodlands Motorhomes Ltd, last year. While they state they are willing to undertake warranty work, they are quick to point out that it is at their discretion! I'm a mite bemused by your statement that "Gas safety regulation require floor vents below any gas appliance (fridge, cooker etc or manifold) to allow any gas leak to dissipate and not build up in the vehicle." If this is indeed the case, then few motorhomes with modern gas-fuelled heaters are meeting those regulations. Modern heaters (eg. Truma's C-Series and "Combi" ranges) should NOT have gas 'safety drop-vents' below (or near) them, otherwise the heater will suck in outside air through the drop-vent rather than circulate warmed air throughout the motorhome's interior. I vividly remember seeing, years ago, a Truma C-Series recirculatory heater installed in a UK-built motorhome with a cavernous drop-vent opening in the floor next to it (plus a notice cautioning that this hole must not be covered) and thinking that the designer clearly handn't given any thought to the consequences. I've no idea if drop-vents beneath ANY gas appliance or manifold are considered essential for NCC EN1646 compliancy, but the lack of them below (or near) gas heaters in motorhomes certainly does not hinder those vehicles being marketed in the UK. I understand that, should there be a gas leak from an appliance, the purpose of the drop-vent is to prevent gas build-up within the vehicle. Personally, I think many drop-vent installations are laughable - LPG doesn't act like water and one would be extraordinarly optimistic to expect leaking gas to cooperate in flowing through a 50mm-diameter hole in the floor. My Hobby's fridge and gas-locker are sealed from the motorhome's interior and ventilated to the outside air via external grilles. There are no drop-vents within the motorhome's interior and this arrangement would be the norm for Continental-built motorcaravans. Truma's installation instructions for the E-4000 heater show various acceptable ways of installing the appliance. Although a 'through floor' arrangement for the air-intake/exhaust seems permissible, the instructions appear to resrict this set-up to when the heater is installed in the cab of a vehicle (eg. in a lorry's driver's cab). Otherwise a double-walled flue with an external cowl must be used (as Timberland has evidently now fitted to to your motohome). Truma then instructs "Cowls must always be fitted to prevent any waste gases entering the inside of the vehicle. The waste gas must always be guided to at least a side wall." Can you provide a reference to the relevant gas safety regulations that make 'drop vents' obligatory, please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Newell Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 Just for purposes of clarity motorhomes are exempt from the gas regs unless the vehicle is to be hired out in the course of a business. In other words the regs are there but only apply as an advisory notice, they are not legally required unless you hire your motorhome out for profit. As I am not personally aware of Timberland's installation practice per se I will refrain from commenting further. D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robingreathead Posted January 31, 2011 Author Share Posted January 31, 2011 The Truma installation instructions for the installation using a floor cowl state: “The floors of vehicles ... must not have any openings leading into the interior such as refrigeration ventilation openings, open pedal breakthroughs, ventilation sliders or hollow false floors. The ventilation for the gas cylinder box is not to be in the floor, it must be routed to the side, directly above the floor, through the outer wall”. With regard to vents; this came from Simon at Timberland who stated he had recently attended a course specifically on the installation of gas appliances in motorhomes. It therefore seems reasonable to accept the information as being valid, until proved otherwise. The recirculating air intake for the Truma E2400 heater is taken from the living area of the vehicle through the heat exchanger and back to the living area and of course is totally segregated from combustion air. I cannot imagine that motorhome manufacturers diligently insert all of these vents because they like drilling holes in the floors of vehicles. I fully agree that appliances that are sealed from the living area of the vehicle are ideal, but it must be rather difficult with the likes of gas hobs, grills and ovens. In cold windy weather draughts from vents are undoubtedly less than appealing but gas accumulating in a vehicle or exhaust gases being drawn into a vehicle are not acceptable either. There have been a number of disastrous accidents over the years where gas has collected in the bilges of boats, where it cannot escape. Switches are fitted on opening windows which are adjacent to exhaust vents on many vans. The situation should not arise in the future as Truma now do not approve the use of floor ducts. Truma state: “Truma have decided to withdraw the option of the floor flue for the E2400 in the Uk as in some countries that vehicles could end up in as a final destination it is not legal to flue in this way” Technical and Quality Manager – Truma Uk. Nov 4 2010. My reason for the thread is in the absence anything from Timberland, Truma or Riddor , that owners are aware of the situation and can decide if they feel it concerns them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 Robingreathead - 2011-01-28 8:58 PM Don't hold your breath with Trading Standards. On another issue the seat trims were damaged by a Renault dealer while the vehicle was in for a recall. Although they are seats supplied by Renault fitted in the new van in 2009, they are ISRI seats. After over a year of wrangling, Renault state that they are unable to provide replacements! ISRI are completely uncooperative. Unbelievable. Trading Standards have dfficulty getting a reply nevermind a satisfactory answer. If I have understood correctly, the damage was caused by the dealer carrying out the work? If correct, it is the dealer, and neither Renault, not Isri, who are responsible. Do you know if either Renault, or Isri, can actually supply replacements for purchase: that is to say, are they listed as spare parts by either company? If so, they are available, and the dealer must pay for them. If they are not available, then new covers must be obtained, and the dealer must pay for them, unless a satisfactory (to you) repair is possible, in which case he must pay for that. It is the dealer that did the damage who has to make amends, no-one else. What is the dealer actually doing about this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 On the other point re the flue, I think Robin is saying Timberland terminated the flue through the floor, so that the heater exhausts beneath the vehicle, rather than as Truma now recommend with the exhaust being ducted to the side of the vehicle. The danger that the heater exhaust might be drawn into the living area via gas drops seems a bit theoretical, but the possibility that in still air, the heater might re-ingest its own exhaust from beneath the vehicle via the balanced flue fresh air intake, seems quite plausible. It would be this that would damage the heater. Whether or not that installation complied with Truma's installation instructions at the time I know not. If it did, I would assume Timberland would have to argue with Truma for reimbursement of the cost of rectification. I still think Timberland may have to carry out the work FOC on those vehicles so equipped, and should know how many these are, and at least who bought them. The new owner of Timberland - assuming it is not merely the Timberland name that was bought post bankruptcy, and that the company was taken on as a going concern, is, so far as I know, still liable for the defect caused under previous ownership. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 Robin I had thought from your original posting that your Truma heater was an E-4000 (though, with hindsight, I should have wondered if that was right) not an E-2400. Truma's on-line Installation Instructions for E-4000 or E-2400 appliances are dated 06/2010 and show a through-floor flue arrangement for the E-4000, but not for the E-2400. I can't find any reference to the "The floors of the vehicle ..." instruction you've quoted, so I guess that this passage is in a pre-06/10 version of those documents. The Truma E-2400 takes cool air from within the motorhome's living area, warms it and then blows the warmed air around the living area. As you emphasize, this air recirculation process is totally separate (and sealed) from the heater's combustion-air intake/exhaust system. However, if a large gas drop-vent is installed near an E-2400's 'living-area' air-intake, the heater will take air from outside the motorhome via the drop-vent rather than from within the motorhome's interior. Obviously this will be very bad news indeed if the outlet of the heater's combustion-air intake/exhaust flue is near to the drop-vent's exterior opening, as the heater can (and probably will) suck exhaust fumes into the motorhome. Even when the outlet of the heater's flue is located well away from the drop-vent, so there's no chance of exhaust fumes being sucked in, the heater will still 'inhale' through a nearby drop-vent and, in seriously cold weather, this will radically reduce the efficiency of the heating system. I fully accept that there may be UK regulations that demand drop-vents be installed in UK-built motorhomes. However, there is an unreconcilable conflict between the design principles of certain modern Truma recirculatory heaters and the drop-vent philosophy. You could put a big drop-vent by a Truma E-2400 and add an extension to its 'living-area' air-intake so that recirculatory air is taken from well away from the drop-vent, but you could not do that with the much more commonplace Truma C-Series or "Combi" appliances. While UK motorhome manufacturers may "diligently insert all of these vents", non-UK converters don't seem to be doing it. That's why I was interested in knowing what the regulations were that (apparently) made drop-vents mandatory and what was the scope of the regulations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john2702 Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 At Timberland we’ve read these posts with interest, but feel the situation needs to be clarified. It’s so often the case these motorhome forums are used for complaints about motorhome manufacturers and dealers when there is an alternative agenda set by the original poster of the thread. We’re not saying this is the case in this instance, but we would like to set the record straight: • When Robin Greathead’s Timberland was first converted from the base vehicle the Truma heating system was installed correctly according to Truma’s then-approved safety installation instructions • Truma later modified their instructions and since then all Truma heating installed by Timberland has been done according to this revised procedure. • Mr Greathead contacted Timberland regarding his vehicle and the changes in installation and Timberland agreed as a gesture of goodwill to make substantial rectification modifications at no cost to the owner. • Mr Greathead refers to damage to his Renault seats caused by a Renault dealer when the vehicle was subject to a Renault recall. He was unable to obtain satisfaction from Renault or Trading Standards on this matter at that time. This would not have been the subject of any warranty claim, but was a dispute between Mr Greathead and the Renault dealer. Timberland Motorhomes made repairs to these seats at our expense with no charge to the customer. This was hardly the action of an uncaring motorhome manufacturer! Timberland Motorhomes also made an offer to Mr Greathead to reimburse his travelling expenses. At all times Timberland acted in the interest of Mr Greathead and incurred substantial costs as a result. • It is correct Timberland Motorhomes was taken over by Woodland Motorhomes Limited last summer and the new company did indeed announce it would honour all genuine warranty claims. It must be pointed out that settlement of warranty claims is always at the discretion of the issuer. This is to ensure warranty claims are valid and have been made according to the terms of the warranty issue and also to guard the issuer against frivolous and malicious claims made by customers. Customers of Timberland Motorhomes and our sister companies Forever Leisure and Assured Leisure will always be treated fairly and with consideration. We hope this clarifies things. Kind regards, Timberland Motorhomes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 Thank you for your post, Timberland. A very helpful, and reasonable, clarification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flicka Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 Welcome to the forum & thanks for the clarifications, John. Does this indicate you will be joining in on the forum on a regular basis. I'm sure many would welcome a manufacturers' input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 john2702 - 2011-02-04 12:27 PM At Timberland we’ve read these posts with interest, but feel the situation needs to be clarified. It’s so often the case these motorhome forums are used for complaints about motorhome manufacturers and dealers when there is an alternative agenda set by the original poster of the thread. We’re not saying this is the case in this instance, but we would like to set the record straight: • When Robin Greathead’s Timberland was first converted from the base vehicle the Truma heating system was installed correctly according to Truma’s then-approved safety installation instructions • Truma later modified their instructions and since then all Truma heating installed by Timberland has been done according to this revised procedure. • Mr Greathead contacted Timberland regarding his vehicle and the changes in installation and Timberland agreed as a gesture of goodwill to make substantial rectification modifications at no cost to the owner. • Mr Greathead refers to damage to his Renault seats caused by a Renault dealer when the vehicle was subject to a Renault recall. He was unable to obtain satisfaction from Renault or Trading Standards on this matter at that time. This would not have been the subject of any warranty claim, but was a dispute between Mr Greathead and the Renault dealer. Timberland Motorhomes made repairs to these seats at our expense with no charge to the customer. This was hardly the action of an uncaring motorhome manufacturer! Timberland Motorhomes also made an offer to Mr Greathead to reimburse his travelling expenses. At all times Timberland acted in the interest of Mr Greathead and incurred substantial costs as a result. • It is correct Timberland Motorhomes was taken over by Woodland Motorhomes Limited last summer and the new company did indeed announce it would honour all genuine warranty claims. It must be pointed out that settlement of warranty claims is always at the discretion of the issuer. This is to ensure warranty claims are valid and have been made according to the terms of the warranty issue and also to guard the issuer against frivolous and malicious claims made by customers. Customers of Timberland Motorhomes and our sister companies Forever Leisure and Assured Leisure will always be treated fairly and with consideration. We hope this clarifies things. Kind regards, Timberland Motorhomes john2702 Are you able to comment on Robin Greathead's earlier statement about gas 'drop-vents', please? Robin wrote: "With regard to vents; this came from Simon at Timberland who stated he had recently attended a course specifically on the installation of gas appliances in motorhomes. It therefore seems reasonable to accept the information as being valid, until proved otherwise." As I said earlier in this thread, my German-built Hobby motorhome has no gas drop-vents within its living area (nor any visible 'permanent low-level ventilation' apertures either, for that matter), but the vehicle has ECWV Type Approval and presumably complies with all German LPG regulations applying to German-built motorhomes in 2005. I have a multi-page document confirming that a full inspection of the gas system and gas appliances had been carried out at the Hobby factory. Although my motorhome is LHD and was bought abroad, the conversion itself (including the gas system) is identical to that of equivalent RHD Hobbys being marketed at that time in the UK via Brownhills. It may be that German regulations do/did not require gas drop-vents to be installed within a motorhome's living-area and that UK regulations do. Different EU countries often have different safety-related vehicle construction-and-use regulations. I have seen it stated elsewhere on-line that it is 'recommended practice' to install drop-vents, or that it is necessary if the UK motorhome manufacturer wishes to have his products badged as NCC EN1646 compliant. However, I've not been able to establish that there is a genuine legal imperative compelling UK motorcaravan manufacturers to install drop-vents "below any gas appliance (fridge, cooker etc or manifold)" as Robin suggested was the case. It is apparent that the drop-vent question has been asked many times over the years, but (as far as I can tell) it has never been answered with real authority. Can you help, please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 Derek, have you checked the clearance under the habitation door? I have seen doors that have a gap here, when I first noticed this I wondered why the door didn't fit the frame, it then occerred to me that it formed a gas drop-out, not sure if Hobby have similier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 There are no dropouts in my 2010 Hobby either, other than the one in the gas-locker, which is sealed from the habitation area.It was something I noted early on; the fridge was very poorly sealed from the living area, which has now been remedied, and it is noticeable that there are now far less draughts than in my previous 'vans (all of which had dropouts and/or extra ventilation).On researching, I found posts (from a German source) that stated that floor ventilation and drop-outs are not allowed in German 'vans, as there is legislation to prevent their use in order to avoid (engine) exhaust fumes entering the habitation space. They obviously believe this to be more of an issue than the gas. It also may explain why Truma originally specifically allowed (and designed an exhaust trunk for) heater exhaust outlet through the floor. (AFAIK, even when this was provided for, it was prohibited in the installation instructions for many countries, but not Germany - and not the UK either). I also have little doubt that the German legislation requiring regular gas (re-)certification has some effect on their attitude to gas dropouts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 colin - 2011-02-04 7:33 PM Derek, have you checked the clearance under the habitation door? I have seen doors that have a gap here, when I first noticed this I wondered why the door didn't fit the frame, it then occerred to me that it formed a gas drop-out, not sure if Hobby have similier. Come now, you surely wouldn't expect me to tolerate a habitation door that didn't seal properly all the way round? This is a Hobby we are talking about, not an Auto-Sleepers! (Refer to earlier forum postings for justification for that remark.) A motorhome manufacturer or dealer might well try to convince a credulous owner that a misfitting habitation door had been deliberately installed that way to permit 'permanent low-level ventilation', but it would be a big stretch to argue that a socking great gap at the door's base was to let leaking LPG out. That's not to say that I haven't seen habitation doors with a gap at the bottom. I have - my 1996 Herald had one, and it didn't seal wonderfully well round the sides either. But there was no doubt about why there were gaps - it was just that Herald used a flimsy 'caravan' design of stable-door making accurate and air/watertight sealing virtually impossible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 Agreed. No gas drops except in gas locker, and door fits properly all round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 I'm trying to recall an excact make/model, I'm fairly sure a Rimor had this type of 'gap' but it's not obvious and I suspect not many will realise it's there unless they look hard. I've also noticed that some german built vans don't appear to have metal lining to their gas lockers, which I had believed was a requirement of build. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 Sorry, OT, but no, no metal lining in ours, just photoveneer faced ply. However, standards are not necessarily the same across Europe. Many French made vans seem to have metal lined gas lockers, so it is possibly their requirement. Having said that, our first van (Burstner) came from France, and its gas locked wasn't metal lined, so whereas it may be a construction requirement in France, it seems it isn't a selling requirement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robingreathead Posted February 7, 2011 Author Share Posted February 7, 2011 I must take issue with John2702 speaking on behalf of Timberland. I have spoken to the technical department of Truma this morning. They confirm that at least as far back as 2003, the installation manuals stated that venting the Trumatic E2400 under the vehicle, using a floor cowl, was only acceptable if the floor was sealed without openings leading to the interior. If a floor flu was fitted and there were openings in the floor, the flu should have been fitted with an extension to the side wall of the vehicle. The modified instructions referred to by John2702, I am told, refer to the decision in July 2010 to withdraw the option of any future use of a floor flue with the E2400. The whole question revolves around the unlikely but possible entry of heater exhaust fumes into the vehicle. My vehicle was new and converted in the Spring of 2009 and taken delivery of in May 2009. In light of the above, it was not the case that “the Truma heating system was installed correctly according to Truma’s then approved safety installation instruction”. However as noted previously it now has been. The offer to reimburse travelling expense amounted to £25 and considering it was a 250mile round trip and required an overnight stay in order to have the vehicle available for the workshop at a reasonable time, I did not accept the offer. I have as yet not pursued the matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 Robingreathead - 2011-02-07 10:54 AM I have spoken to the technical department of Truma this morning. They confirm that at least as far back as 2003, the installation manuals stated that venting the Trumatic E2400 under the vehicle, using a floor cowl, was only acceptable if the floor was sealed without openings leading to the interior. An interesting debate, and I'm sure the truth is in there somewhere.The installation instructions available here:http://www.leisure-supplies.co.uk/truma/heating/2400_installation.pdf(which appear to date from July 2004) do seem to add some weight to your argument.(Of course, the restriction could have been removed by the time your installation was carried out - though it seems unlikely as the instructions are now even more restrictive - but those in force at the time of installation are the ones that are important for this case). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 Curioser and curioser! I agree: the installation as described does appear to be in direct conflict with Truma's May/July 2004 installations.However, it seems Truma's installation instructions may have caused some confusion vis a vis the Gas Safety Regs, by stating clearly that the floor should be sealed to be air/gas tight, but being less clear about the requirement for gas drops. The point of confusion seems to lie in the illustration showing installation with a floor cowl (page B), footed by indication of limited nationalities under the diagram - (DK) (FIN) (F) (N) (S) (A) - presumably intended to imply that such an arrangement is only permissible in Denmark, Finland, France, Norway, Sweden, and Austria, but without clarifying that this may not be permissible elsewhere. Some confusion could have been removed had Truma included the other nationality signifiers crossed through to indicate where they may not be used, or simply stated "Not permissible in other countries".If an earlier edition of these installation instructions had been followed during prototyping and development, showing this arrangement as more widely permissible, then, unless Truma drew specific attention to the revised instructions with later deliveries, and stated or showed what had been changed, they were rather setting up Timberland (and probably others) for a fall. There is no list of revisions in the document, and it is unclear whether an earlier version existed, so Timberland could be fully excused for assuming the instructions had not changed. Having read them once, it is asking a lot to expect the installer to sit down and read the instructions in each and every box before beginning work, in case something had been changed. Even now, it takes a fairly close reading to spot the fact that, because floor drops are required, a floor cowl cannot be used. A good ISO 9001 QA procedure would have required revised instructions to be highlighted, especially where a safety related matter is concerned. However, all that should be disputed solely between Timberland and Truma, and should not influence dealings between Timberland and their customer. Under the circumstances, I think Timberland have done the honourable thing in carrying out the alteration, though it is perhaps rather unfortunate it was done in a way that left Robin feeling somewhat short changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 Brian Kirby - 2011-02-07 4:12 PM The point of confusion seems to lie in the illustration showing installation with a floor cowl (page B), footed by indication of limited nationalities under the diagram - (DK) (FIN) (F) (N) (S) (A) - presumably intended to imply that such an arrangement is only permissible in Denmark, Finland, France, Norway, Sweden, and Austria, but without clarifying that this may not be permissible elsewhere. Some confusion could have been removed had Truma included the other nationality signifiers crossed through to indicate where they may not be used, or simply stated "Not permissible in other countries". ...yes, obviously very confusing (it's t'other way round - those are the ones where it isn't allowed ;-) ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 Robinhood - 2011-02-07 4:21 PM Brian Kirby - 2011-02-07 4:12 PM The point of confusion seems to lie in the illustration showing installation with a floor cowl (page B), footed by indication of limited nationalities under the diagram - (DK) (FIN) (F) (N) (S) (A) - presumably intended to imply that such an arrangement is only permissible in Denmark, Finland, France, Norway, Sweden, and Austria, but without clarifying that this may not be permissible elsewhere. Some confusion could have been removed had Truma included the other nationality signifiers crossed through to indicate where they may not be used, or simply stated "Not permissible in other countries". ...yes, obviously very confusing (it's t'other way round - those are the ones where it isn't allowed ;-) ) Damn! Missed the bit of English in that footnote! So it is - which is even more puzzling!! Good job I'm not a Timberland heater fitter - or maybe I was, and have forgotten! :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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