Guest pelmetman Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 Anyone done this, I wondering about upgrading to something like a duel top, or webasto. Just wondering about costs, pro's and con's etc, and who does this kind of work :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike88 Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 Some definite cons of my one eberspacher experience are that its noisy unreliable and expensive to repair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 There was an article in MMM June 2010 (pages 199-202) on replacing a Truma C-Series gas heater with a Webasto Dual Top. Van Bitz did the work (www.vanbitz.com) Typical costs for an installation were quoted as £2199-£2299, depending on the model of Dual Top fitted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 Dave ... can I ask what the problem is with your existing heating/hot water system? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 Mel B - 2011-01-29 6:29 PM Dave ... can I ask what the problem is with your existing heating/hot water system? Nothing, it works ok, but I was thinking with the gas bottle freezing so often this last trip, Which means the gas heating didn't work when needed *-) Not a problem with EH as we have the fan heater :D As we hope to make the recent trip to Spain at Christmas a regular jaunt, I was thinking an upgrade might be a good idea :-D Plus our gas locker would only take one red bottle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 I would have thought it would massively cheaper to opt for a refillable gas reservoir and/or increase the size of the gas locker to accept a larger canister. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Newell Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 Dave, forget switching to diesel power for water and space heating, its expensive, murders batteries and sounds like a 737 coming in to land. Instead switch to Propane from Butane and all your problems will disappear. Even better would be to follow Derek's advice and fit a refillable system, runs on propane and you never need to lift a heavy bottle of gas again. Only downside to refillables is cost and the savings of using lpg from autogas pumps has been decimated recently. D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 Hi Dave, I've heard that the refillable tanks are heavy, and as you have seen under my skirts do you think there is space :D Another thought how much gas do they hold compared to normal bottles, and can you tell when they are getting empty (?) Its sounds like an option (^) hopefully cheaper aswell:D Also does butane burn as hot as propane? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ekka Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 My previous van had Webasto diesel heating, fantastic not to fret about gas running out, BUT it packed up and cost me over £1000 to replace, I was also told they needed expensive servicing often too. As others have said change to propane no problem with waking up to no gas supply due to a fall in temperature. As to refill bottles this is something I've considered, BUT where I live there is not anywhere that sells Autogas ( despite outlets being listed on the autogas website ) a couple of retailers saying they had stopped selling it due to insufficient demand. I would be very interested to hear others take on this. I have two 6 Kg calor propanes and a 907 camping gaz cylinder in a separate drop vented locker for emergency use in case we run out of calor in France, what do others do ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 I have an Eberspacher Diesel/electric system for air/water heating, and so far very pleased with it, compared to previous Gas Systems. So nice, not having to worry about gas supplies all the time, checked the Eberspacher website and spares don't look too expensive compared to Truma spares. Good engineers to fix it are not as common, but there is a good one locally (Swansea, thanks Tracker). We don't find it too noisy, but i wouldn't want to be in a tent 'too close'. Hav'nt gone into details about cost of Diesel against bottled propane yet, but this year we'll see. (?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flicka Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 pelmetman - 2011-01-29 7:06 PM Hi Dave, I've heard that the refillable tanks are heavy, and as you have seen under my skirts do you think there is space :D Another thought how much gas do they hold compared to normal bottles, and can you tell when they are getting empty (?) Its sounds like an option (^) hopefully cheaper aswell:D Also does butane burn as hot as propane? Hi Dave A refillable Gaslow bottle (with gauge) should fit your Gas Locker, if a Propane bottle will. You can then fill/top up whenever an opportunity arises.I would anticipate lower cost than a fixed Gas Tank or Diesel powered heaters.But have a word with Dave Newell about your applainces, just to be on the safe side.Due to the age of your van any changes to the system may require changes to the appliances because of the increased pressure from 27bar to the current standard 30bar. They maybe OK, but worth checking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 Thanks for all the feed back chaps & chapess's :D If I went the refillable gas bottle route, is there a problem with the channel tunnel :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flicka Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 Should be no problem Dave. Just turn it off.But with an underslung LPG Tank, they may think your Van is LPG powered & that's a No No on the Chunnel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Newell Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 I actually meant a refillable cylinder rather than an underslung tank. I think you should be able to get an 11KG Alugas or Gaslow cylinder in. Butane has a higher calorific value than propane but this is offset by the different operating pressures (28 mbar for butane and 37 mbar for propane prior to bulkhead regs coming in in 2004) and your applinces should be ok to work at 37 mbar on propane. D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 Dave Newell - 2011-01-30 7:35 AM I actually meant a refillable cylinder rather than an underslung tank. I think you should be able to get an 11KG Alugas or Gaslow cylinder in. Butane has a higher calorific value than propane but this is offset by the different operating pressures (28 mbar for butane and 37 mbar for propane prior to bulkhead regs coming in in 2004) and your applinces should be ok to work at 37 mbar on propane. D. Thanks Dave, I think thats the route to go as 11KG adds up to more than the 4.5KG and the 2 x 907 (2.75KG) bottles that we had for the trip :D Although I changed the 907 bottles at 20 euro! a time, and I think the first one I changed wasn't empty just frozen >:-( How much is it to fill a 11KG refillable (?) Blue is Butane.....Red is Propane....and I've got Butane....Why wont my brain remember this *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 11kg is 20Lt it's about 75p Lt at the moment (may have gone up a bit in the last couple of weeks), so about £15. Current Calor 6kg refill £19.99 that's about 11 Lt @ £1.81 Lt. Edit: Just read the post properly it's the price of the cylinder you wanted to know, that's around £180 with a filler point & adaptor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 lennyhb - 2011-01-30 11:45 AM 11kg is 20Lt it's about 75p Lt at the moment (may have gone up a bit in the last couple of weeks), so about £15. Current Calor 6kg refill £19.99 that's about 11 Lt @ £1.81 Lt. Edit: Just read the post properly it's the price of the cylinder you wanted to know, that's around £180 with a filler point & adaptor. Thanks Lenny, it was the price to fill I was after :-D and thats a heck of a difference £15 for a 11KG bottle compared to £20 for a 2.75KG 907 camping gaz 8-) So now I have to decide between over 2K on a diesel system or a couple of hundred quid on the refillable system.................looks like a bit of a no brainer :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ekka Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 This is something I have been trying to nail down as well. I too have thought of the Gaslow solution, BUT from the 5 autogas outlets shown on the autogas website nearest to us I discovered two suppliers had ceased trading, and two said they no longer do autogas due to a decline in demand. I believe a more plentiful supply of outlets in France exists as long has you have the necessary adapters. On another forum I read that some UK filling stations are now getting s bit jobsworth if they think you are filling anything other than a gas tank for vehicle propulsion, don't know how true. Plus a twin bottle system is not a small sum of money getting on for £500, and apart from the no doubt convenience of not lifting bottles I'm guessing I would need to use about 60 large bottles to get to a break even point, or go winter touring more often ! ! As my problem is touring France for extended lengths of time off the mains which I am hoping to do this year, wandering if we could get by with just a couple of 6Kg Calor bottles as we did last year but would have loved the luxury of the blown air heating on chilly evenings and mornings which we were unable to do with gay abandon. I have been thinking would it be more practical to just take one, or even none then just pick a French bottle up in Calais, can it be that difficult and just take a regulator to suit ( if only I knew what connections French bottles have ) as they say answers on a postcard please would be very helpful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 You can easily get a French cylinder, but what you get, and what connection will be necessary, will depend what you gas locker will hold. If you can accommodate a 13kg cylinder, basically the same size as a UK Calor propane cylinder, that will probably be cheapest, and Butagaz is about the most widely available. If you have a fixed, bulkhead mounted, regulator, the pigtail is identical to a UK propane pigtail. If you have to go for a smaller cylinder, you will be into the realms of Le Cube (Butagaz), Twiny (Primagaz), Elfi (Antargaz), or Malice (Totalgaz), which have differing (generally snap on) connectors one from another. Appropriate pigtails are generally available from the cylinder suppliers, commonly supermarkets and filling stations. I would be a bit inclined to stay away from the Twiny and Elfi, on the ground that I don't think they are so widely distributed around France as the others, with a preference for Le Cube on the same ground. But, will it fit? :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackfingers Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 flicka - 2011-01-29 9:36 PMBut with an underslung LPG Tank, they may think your Van is LPG powered & that's a No No on the Chunnel.We have an underslung LPG tank for the domestic gas - well worth the initial cost and much easier to fill than Gaslow bottles. And, no, the Tunnel folk are no problem - all they want to see is that the tank is turned off. Ian L. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ekka Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 Many thanks for that Brian, I had a attempted to get that information the last time I was over in France, but as my French is limited to non, and oui that was a bit of a challenge. Can I take it from that a bog standard calor type propane on bottle regulator would fit the Butagaz large bottle, or as someone else suggested a screw in butane regulator as used on the small calor butane bottle,if you know that would be extremely useful info. I have to say I was staggered at the different brands and bottle sizes encountered. I simply do not have the spare cash to go the refillable route, thanks, Ekka :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 Ekka, now you have started, there are more differant types of regulator/adaptor fittings for use 'Abroad' than you can shake a stick at ! Far better to go the 'Re-Fillable' route, if a bit more expensive. And make sure you stick to Propane, it 'Gasses off' down well into the 'minus's' ware as Butane and Butane 'mixes' (like 'Gaz') don't ! I prefere diesel. You can buy that 'anywhere' . *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ekka Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 Its astonishing really, you would have thought one of the benefits of the EU would be a common fitting. Our other complaint with the Eberspacher was it was quite noisy, but not as noisy as the missus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazooka Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 Pelmetman,just had a Alugas refillable 11kg fitted by Dave Newall half the weight of a Calor steel bottle.Filled it up 23 litres £16 (70 pence a litre)it might never pay for itself but its worth it for ease of use. Baz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 bazooka - 2011-01-31 7:55 PM Pelmetman,just had a Alugas refillable 11kg fitted by Dave Newall half the weight of a Calor steel bottle.Filled it up 23 litres £16 (70 pence a litre)it might never pay for itself but its worth it for ease of use. Baz With camping gaz at 20 euros for 2.75KG 8-) I think it will pay for itself sooner than you think :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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