Guest pelmetman Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 Oh font of all knowlegde.....Help please. Coming back from a delivery run on the A14 this afternoon, when I had a blow out......and at 70 ish miles an hour I can guarantee its an excellent cure for constipation :D I dunno what the A14 got against me, wat wiv my wheel nuts saga before Crimbo! Its sods law that it was the best tyre on the works van *-) so now I have one flat and 3 border line tyres, so ripe for a new set...........But, my brain cell had an idea on the way back (^) So I'm thinking of taking the "Hankooks" off the camper that I had fitted last year, and getting a set of winter tyres for the camper :D My thinking is....... we want to make the winter Spain trip an annual event B-) the snow chains I bought weigh a ton, so I left the Lafumas and BBQ at home *-) But if I had winter tyres then I could leave the snow chains behind :D So my questions are ;-) Are winter tyres enough, or do I still need the chains legally? If they are legal, do I need the spare to be a winter tyre aswell? I know they dont wear as well as normal tyres, but as the camper has taken 20 years to clock 50k I doubt that will be an issue, my concern is more to do with ride quality, I dont fancy a lot of road noise or a rough ride :D Finally, what sort of money should a set cost, I'm waiting for a call back from our local depot ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 I had a pair of Vredstein mud&snow tyres fitted on the front of our previous x250 pug.(..as we camp at quite a few music festivals) The handling was fine,even at motorway speeds and they didn't seem to wear anymore than the oe tyres or make anymore noise.. I'll it them to our renault(..when our current tyres wear down a bit..) ;-) (..just to add,they were of a suitable load rating..) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nowtelse2do Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 pelmetman - 2011-02-08 4:44 PM Oh font of all knowlegde.....Help please. Coming back from a delivery run on the A14 this afternoon, when I had a blow out......and at 70 ish miles an hour I can guarantee its an excellent cure for constipation :D So Dave, the curtains would have come in very handy then :D :DDave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
handyman Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 pepe63 - 2011-02-08 6:03 PM I had a pair of Vredstein mud&snow tyres fitted on the front of our previous x250 pug.(..as we camp at quite a few music festivals) The handling was fine,even at motorway speeds and they didn't seem to wear anymore than the oe tyres or make anymore noise.. I'll it them to our renault(..when our current tyres wear down a bit..) ;-) (..just to add,they were of a suitable load rating..) I thought it was incorrect to have a mix of tyres like that...........and it will nul and void you insurance as well. With so much more grip on the front, the back end can break away. Lots of youtube video examples of this effect. ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 nowtelse2do - 2011-02-08 7:03 PMSo Dave, the curtains would have come in very handy then :D :DDaveFunnily enough, I do have a nice pair of interlined curtains behind the seats that I put in to help the aircon, they are in a nice blue fabric which compliment the upholstery :D ............But clashes terribly with my now brown trousers :$ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 Handyman..with you saying that,I can't say that I know differently,to be honest.. :-S ..I know I *was* told by the garage that fitted them that they were okay to run with the original rears(..something about similar profiles?..) I can't say that I ever noticed any undue effects on the handling tho'... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flicka Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 Hi Dave You will still need the snow chains if you intend going over some of the Pyreneean routes to Spain. So it depends on your route. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
handyman Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 pepe63 - 2011-02-08 8:08 PM Handyman..with you saying that,I can't say that I know differently,to be honest.. :-S ..I know I *was* told by the garage that fitted them that they were okay to run with the original rears(..something about similar profiles?..) I can't say that I ever noticed any undue effects on the handling tho'... I did the same thing with my work van, and went out to a quite road to have a go with heavy breaking in the snow, the back end kicked out big time. (wanted to see if the youtube videos were correct :-D ) Easily sorted by phoning your insurance company and asking if its ok....... Its just a bigger grip difference effect than the 'new tyres always on the rear', its safer and more controllable having a front wheel skid than a rear wheel skid, and this is industry standard advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 handyman - 2011-02-08 7:14 PM pepe63 - 2011-02-08 6:03 PM I had a pair of Vredstein mud&snow tyres fitted on the front of our previous x250 pug.(..as we camp at quite a few music festivals) The handling was fine,even at motorway speeds and they didn't seem to wear anymore than the oe tyres or make anymore noise.. I'll it them to our renault(..when our current tyres wear down a bit..) ;-) (..just to add,they were of a suitable load rating..) I thought it was incorrect to have a mix of tyres like that...........and it will nul and void you insurance as well. With so much more grip on the front, the back end can break away. Lots of youtube video examples of this effect. ??? Just because a tyre is marked "M+S", that doesn't automatically mean it's a 'winter' tyre. Michelin's "Agilis Camping" is M+S-marked, but it's a 'summer' tyre. There's no overwhelming technical reason preventing you mixing M+S-marked and non-M+S-marked 'summer' tyres (even on the same axle) assuming that they have otherwise a similar specification. However, if a tyre pattern is genuinely a 'winter' one (eg. Michelin's "Agilis Alpin" ) with a 'mountain/snowflake' marking, then you'd be unwise mixing such tyres with 'summer' ones. Most of the time it should be OK but, when you drove in conditions where the 'winter' tyres were providing lots of grip and the 'summer' tyres hardly any, your vehicle's handling and road-holding would become very unpredictable. If you want to use genuine 'winter' tyres, best practice is to fit them all-round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 I no longer have the vehicle but thinking back now,they not have even had "M&S" on them.. :-S I wasn't after full blown snow tyres just something to help on muddy pitches(..,and when camping on festival sites). Having dug the receipt out(and partially deciphered the handwriting)it just says: Vredestein comtrac winter radials c/van (...and a few other words I couldn't make out). So no mention of M or S there then... :$ So,don't mind me ..as you were... ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 According to Vredestein's website "Comtrac Winter" is a specialised 'winter' tyre. It is described as follows: "The Comtrac Winter has a directional tread which, in combination with two large circumferential grooves, ensures excellent water dispersion and prevents aquaplaning. The large number of zigzag sipes in the tread blocks are designed in such a way that the tyre easily shakes off mud and snow. In addition, this unique tread design with its special compound, provides for a shorter braking distance and improved acceleration in wintry conditions. The sturdy shoulder blocks play a crucial role when cornering, especially with heavier loads. Their special construction guarantees an optimal grip. At the same time, the Comtrac Winter is a good-looking tyre, designed to meet the increasing aesthetic demand from owners of modern delivery vans." As it's a full-blown 'winter' tyre it will carry the mandatory mountain/snowflake marking. As I've said before, M+S doesn't mean a great deal and, in the case of Comtrac Winter, it would be unnecessary to mark the tyre M+S because its 'winter' status makes its suitability for use on snow and mud obvious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Derek Uzzell - 2011-02-09 1:46 PM According to Vredestein's website "Comtrac Winter" is a specialised 'winter' tyre. It is described as follows: ".... the Comtrac Winter is a good-looking tyre, designed to meet the increasing aesthetic demand from owners of modern delivery vans." Well,the secrets's out!...that's the real reason why I bought 'em! :D (..as you can't beat a "good-looking" tyre... (lol) ) So was I "legally" okay to run them with the standard OE rears then?(..which had only done about 5k miles)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
handyman Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 pepe63 - 2011-02-09 2:07 PM So was I "legally" okay to run them with the standard OE rears then?(..which had only done about 5k miles)... Phone your insurance company, if they say they will insure you with a tyre mix like that, then its OK??? Everything I said was taking into account they were 'proper' winter tyres............unsure about M&S tyres :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Well,I no longer have the vehicle but I'm just interested for future reference... :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trooper Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 The old thing about the back sliding out has reared its ugly head again. M/Homes are entirely different to cars or nearly empty vans, More weight on the back, driven more sensibly due to centre of gravity etc. How many owners have had a rear slide and how many have lost front wheel traction in snow,mud, steep hills etc ?, i rest my case. A point, when mini's came out, almost half in our erea ran town and countrys on the front because of lack of traction in bad weather. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Still waiting on quotes, the only one I have had said there is a 9 month waiting list for winter tyres 8-) 8-) Apparantly Germany has changed their laws and there all being sent to them (?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twooks Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Vredestein winter tyres are supposed to be restocked from april I like vredestein, good tyres and helpful company another option is nokian - a scandinavian make Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 pelmetman - 2011-02-09 7:55 PM Still waiting on quotes, the only one I have had said there is a 9 month waiting list for winter tyres 8-) 8-) Ah, yes, but they're not any old tyres ... they're M&S tyres!!!! (LOL) Apparantly Germany has changed their laws and there all being sent to them (?) Yup, just read about that in the Caravan Club mag - new rules in Germany make it illegal not to have winter tyres fitted in winter. When winter 'starts' and 'finishes' in Germany I don't know, but it could be tricky if you start your trip it 'summer' and finish it in 'winter' you'd have to take 5 extras wheels/tyres with you or run winter tyres all the time I suppose otherwise it'd play havoc with your payload!!!! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
handyman Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 trooper - 2011-02-09 7:12 PM i rest my case. you can 'rest your case' after you've asked if your still insured if you have winter tyres on the front and summer tyres on the rear, and its ok with them ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Mel B - 2011-02-09 8:38 PM Ah, yes, but they're not any old tyres ... they're M&S tyres!!!! (LOL) That made me nearly choke on my coffee..! (lol) (lol) (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy_C Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 I've been following this as we will probably be transiting Germany next winter. As far as I can tell, tyres with M+S markings are acceptable for winter use, it seems that it is not a 'requirement' to have tyres marked with the mountain/snowflake symbol indicating suitability for winter/cold weather use. Our van is 7.5 tonnes, most of the available information is specific to cars but Continental have a pdf download aimed at trucks which summarises the regulations across Europe for vehicles over 3.5 tonnes: http://www.conti-online.com/generator/www/uk/en/continental/transport/general/hidden/winter_tyre_guide/guide_en.pdf This indicates that M+S tyres are only 'required' on the drive axle and only when weather conditions indicate. I'd be interested to hear if anyone has any information source which differs from Continental's interpretation of the regulations. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 In truth, this issue is a bit more complicated than some of the above makes it sound. Just sticking to light commercial vehicle/camping (LCV) tyres, there are three broad categories: summer, all season, and winter. However, manufacturers don't help in identifying which category a particular tyre falls into, when they use alternative terms, largely for marketing reasons, to describe its characteristics. Also, research and development means that crossover, or hybrid, solutions are also available in some instances.Not all tyre manufacturers make the full range of types, and within any individual manufacturer's type offering, not all sizes, or load indexes, are available. To suit a particular van, therefore, the choice may boil down to "take it or leave it"! :-) It would be wise to consult the manufacturer's technical department before buying, telling them where and when it will be used, on what type of vehicle, and the size, load, and speed, ratings required, plus the individual axle load maxima for the van.My reason for urging caution is that there is some suggestion that true winter tyres, with their softer compounds and more heavily incised treads, may overheat and suffer rapid wear, poor adhesion, and even tread chunking, if used in high summer temperatures - say in southern Europe, for example. So what may work well in the wet, or on soft grass, may reveal some rather undesirable characteristics on a hot dual carriageway after a few hours of sustained 60MPH cruising, or when taking the scenic route along a Mediterranean corniche road, or over southern mountains.What I suspect most of us are really after, is a tyre with a coarser tread pattern than the usual hard compound summer LCV tyre (that is primarily designed for high mileage), in the hope it will give improved traction on soft ground, such as wet grass, but also on hard smooth wet tarmac (think southern Europe, especially in early autumn), on which some of the summer grade LCV tyres get quite "interesting".What that points to, I think, is a tyre with a higher number of sipes in the tread blocks to maximise the wet performance, but also with more individually defined tread blocks to maximise the grip on soft, wet, grass. Finding that combination in a size, speed, and load, rating to suit an individual van will be a bit of a search.For example, based on information I have for Continental, in the 215/75 R16 C 113/111R size/rating for our van, there is a choice of just two possibles. Vanco Four Season, which seems to rely mainly on its tread compound to give better grip on wet, or slushy, roads, and has a slightly coarser tread with more sipes, and the Vanco Winter 2, with heavier, heavily siped, tread blocks, which carries an M+S designation but also the (American/Canadian) snowflake symbol.The latter looks "the business", but its suitability for summer use should be checked with Conti, as the tread compound may be unsuitable. If all they say is it may suffer higher wear but no real vices, it would probably be worth considering, since most motorhome tyres die of age long before they are worn out.If a tyre is taken to have a safe service life of 5-7 years, many will cover only 15-30,000 miles over that time, and few more than 50,000. The secondary problem, with such intermittent use, is likely to be "flats" developing on the tread with these softer compounds, if the van is left unused over the winter months. Again, this is something the manufacturers technical departments may be able to advise on.Regarding the new German regulations, my understanding is that they are quite loosely drafted, placing to onus on the driver to select the right tyres for conditions, and leaving the penalty largely in the hands of the police. If your vehicle causes a hold up, or accident, in snowy, or icy, conditions, and you haven't fitted appropriately rated tyres, you will be liable to a fine or prosecution, depending on the outcome of the incident. To comply with the regulations, the tyres must have a minimum of 4mm of tread at the time. So, worn winter tyres with less than 4mm tread won't get you out of trouble even if they are snowflake marked. Early, and late, travellers to Italy, Greece, Slovenia, Croatia etc, may need to consider travelling via France (and maybe Switzerland), rather than via Germany/Austria, if they don't want to have to keep buying tyres! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy_C Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 For my tyre size, 205/75 17.5, Continental have just one offering for the steer axle (LSR1) and one for the drive axle (LDR1), only the LDR1s are M+S marked. I need 4 LDR1s - £225 each :( Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Thanks for all the advice people :-D but it seems like there isn't a winter tyre left in the whole country 8-) So I think I will have to put a cheap tyre on the works van for now, and try again later in the year as I dont like not having a spare tyre onboard :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Usinmyknaus Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 In case of interest. Honest John in the Telegraph has championed the safety benefits of winter tyres in the UK. He reported last Saturday that he had reached agreement with the Association of British Insurers that when motorists fit winter tyres, whilst they should inform their insurers, THE INSURER SHOULD NOT CHARGE THE MOTORIST ANY PREMIUM OR ADMIN CHARGE as a consequence. So, Honest John's advice was that in the event of an insurer trying to impose a charge, to insist on going up the chain of command, stressing the ABI agreement and holding out until the company complies. He would like to hear, I am sure, of any companies who refuse to comply. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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