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Guest 1footinthegrave

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Brian Kirby - 2011-02-23 12:12 AM

 

BTW, I had meant to say thanks for retrieving the core of the original string, great work.  Don't understand how you managed it, but I'm sure we're all grateful to you for that little stroke of genius

 

To file away for future use, in case you want to retrieve deleted data:

 

Google "caches" many search results in case the content of the page changes after it has been indexed. These cached versions are transient.

 

If you know what text was in the deleted pages, you can search for it on Google with a few selected terms.

 

In that case (i.e. change), if you click on the returned Google link, you get the changed page, which may not contain the search terms you used on Google (in the case we are talking about, no page is found, as it has been removed by the mods).

 

If, however, you click on the word "cached" in the body of the Google text under the link, you get the original page, as and when it was indexed.

 

If stuff disappears (typically pages pulled from the website), depending on when Google last indexed the site, and how long has passed since the content changed, it is possible to reconstitute the text from the cached version.

 

You usually have to be quite quick, I can find only one page of the deleted thread in the above way today.

 

I hope this makes sense, and apologies to all for the OT.

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JudgeMental - 2011-02-24 11:38 AM

 

while the safe fill looks intersting, I can see problems refilling it until they are recognised by autogas retailers, and that aint going to happen any time soon.

 

If I cant transfer my system to new van (smaller locker) I will get another one, the price being far outweighed by the sheer convenience and ease of refill.....I went to local garage yesterday to fill up with gas as I did not realise I was running out. the thought of going back to bottled gas and all the associated hassle and lack of availability in mainland Europe is something I am not prepared to go back to.....

 

Eddie, why don't you simply offer to swap your larger bottles with someone who has smaller ones but wants larger ones .... :-S

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on the motorhome wild site today report from nec extract from post

  we both had a good chat to Richard the big wig at Gaslow, who is going to issue a special label to stick on your bottles in French or whatever EU Country you may be travelling to, to verify its Europe wide legality, you just send them the bottle i.d numbers and they will send them out to you, so that should kill those stories of refusal to fill that have been circulating. We both are impressed at this companies customer care, they certainly look after you once you are a customer, 

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Derek Uzzell - 2011-02-24 10:57 AM

 

My understanding is that France has its own national regulations relating to the gas systems of French-built/registered motorhomes. (For example, I vaguely recall reading once that there's a French regulation relating to the joints in the leisure vehicle's metal gas pipework being soldered rather than compression-type.)

 

 

I wouldn't doubt it Derek, though the implication that I've found is that they should have moved to EN 1646-1.

 

The fact that there might be specific fitting requirements was partially why I posted the details about EC/67/01 LPG propulsion that I found, which intimated that whilst there was a basic European Standard, fitting requirements varied across Europe (and patently if this is true for these systems, it may also be true for hab systems).

 

The major item I was trying to highlight is that the quoted R 67-01 is IMO the same as EC/67/01 etc. and this is NOT designed to apply to hab systems, and therefore it should not be seen as Gaslow being non-conformant with a pan-European standard. (the main concerns being that the Gaslow does not have a remote valve, nor is it "permanently" located with metal bands or bolts).

 

It may well be that France have decided that hab systems need to be installed to this EC/67/01 standard, but it would appear that it is NOT a mandatory standard for them across Europe.

 

Interestingly enough, from the additional page you have now posted, there is an inference that the permanent mounting of the bottles may not in itself be a requirement, but simply a way of overcoming the restriction at filling stations.

 

Its translated comments are:

 

Although the tank is bolted to the bottom of the trunk, the gas tank may be considered to be mobile by the stations. Thus, some managers strictly enforce the regulations attached to the pumps

 

Against a picture of a pump with the words Don't refill mobile cylinders

 

If anyone has any interest, the previous gas standard (NF S 56 200)already referenced can be found in French at:

 

http://www.campingcar-poidslourd.fr/wiki/index.php/NF_S-56_200

 

...and Mr Google does a fair job of translation.

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I spoke to Gaslow at the NEC yesterday about a couple of things that have come up on this post. First the refusing to supply bit. They have obviously heard about this but have had no direct complaints from customers who have actually had this problem in Europe but have one from a customer who was refused a fill in the UK. They say you are always going to get the odd problem if you open the locker door and are obviously refilling bottles from people who just do not understand the system. However this is so rare they feel nothing much can be done about it except to follow the fitting guidelines. I was told they are launching Gaslow in France this year and among the two fitting recommendations are, to fit filler on the exterior of van and to secure the bottles with metal straps. The second point, it has been mentioned that bottles should be cleaned out every few years. They stated quite clearly this is a complete nonsense and the bottlle needs no attention for its full life span, which is fifteen years. Those who have the time and are interested have been busy quoteing all sorts of French regulations but in my opinion this is a waste of time. The French will not take any notice of their own regulations and do they apply to people within the EU but from another country with differant regulations. What about other EU countries who probably all have their own rules but can anyone seriously be bothered to look. I will continue to treat this as yet another 'storm in a teacup' until it is proved otherwise, which at present seems extremly doubtfull.
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Robinhood - 2011-02-24 8:19 PM
Brian Kirby - 2011-02-23 12:12 AM BTW, I had meant to say thanks for retrieving the core of the original string, great work.  Don't understand how you managed it, but I'm sure we're all grateful to you for that little stroke of genius
To file away for future use, in case you want to retrieve deleted data: Google "caches" many search results in case the content of the page changes after it has been indexed. These cached versions are transient. ........... I hope this makes sense, and apologies to all for the OT.

Thanks for the explanation Robin.  I have the browser set to delete history, and use Metacrawler as my search engine rather than Google, which I find a bit invasive.  So far as I can see, I can't achieve your "Google trick" (climate camp alert!  :-D) with Metacrawler, possibly because I store insufficient history.  Useful trick, though.

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Brian Kirby - 2011-02-25 11:37 PM

 

Thanks for the explanation Robin.  I have the browser set to delete history, and use Metacrawler as my search engine rather than Google, which I find a bit invasive.  So far as I can see, I can't achieve your "Google trick" (climate camp alert!  :-D) with Metacrawler, possibly because I store insufficient history.  Useful trick, though.

 

just a bit more OT - apologies again.

 

The "cache" is on the Google servers (not local to the browser).

 

I don't use the history, I simply search for, say, "outandaboutlive gaslow brian kirby" in Google and then look at the "cached" link against each recent search result (though if you try that now, the targeted items have all disappeared having been refreshed).

 

I use various browser/search engine combinations as appropriate - for example, I find Chrome with Google most useful for translating pages quicky and easily, when, for example, searching for French gas regulations :-D

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rupert123 - 2011-02-25 2:04 PM

 

...The second point, it has been mentioned that bottles should be cleaned out every few years. They stated quite clearly this is a complete nonsense and the bottlle needs no attention for its full life span, which is fifteen years...

 

I believe this suggestion may have originated from France. The argument for occasional bottle-cleaning is that, whereas exchange-only bottles get factory-cleaned internally fairly regularly, 'fixed' refillable bottles don't get internally cleaned as a matter of course. Hence, if crap (like oil) is introduced into a refillable bottle at the refilling stage, it will stay in there indefinitely.

 

There's nothing new or controversial about the idea - I remember saying this 5 years or so ago when regulators were failing and Dometic started to warn against using 'autogas' to fuel their fridges.

 

If it could be guaranteed that 100% 'pure' autogas always entered the refillable bottle, then there would never be any need to clean the bottle internally. But there's plenty of evidence that LPG (autogas or otherwise) can't be guaranteed to be totally free of contaminants.

 

It's reasonable to suggest draining refillable bottles (carefully!) once in a while as a preventative anti-crap measure. It's not that people "must" do this, or even "should" do this, it's just that the procedure OUGHT to reduce the likelihood of muck that MIGHT have entered the bottle POSSIBLY causing trouble downstream of the bottle. And, of course, the principle applies equally to fixed refillable LPG 'tanks'.

 

 

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Guest 1footinthegrave
Interesting stuff, like most I have read about regulators failing when bulkhead types were introduced, industry experts said it was an oily substance being leached from the pipes and running down into the regulator. Does it not follow that this same oily substance would not have made its way through rubber type pipe work prior to this change and into appliances, if so I have never heard of it. Or have I led a sheltered life. If the advice is to clean the tanks periodically I wonder how one goes about it ( any ex employees of Calor out there ) Or is this just another non thing to fret about I wonder.
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1footinthegrave - 2011-02-26 6:18 PM

 

Interesting stuff, like most I have read about regulators failing when bulkhead types were introduced, industry experts said it was an oily substance being leached from the pipes and running down into the regulator. Does it not follow that this same oily substance would not have made its way through rubber type pipe work prior to this change and into appliances, if so I have never heard of it. Or have I led a sheltered life. If the advice is to clean the tanks periodically I wonder how one goes about it ( any ex employees of Calor out there ) Or is this just another non thing to fret about I wonder.

 

Look, Gaslow state quite clearly no need to clean, they are the experts so why not take their word for it. Derek states the case for contaminated LPG is well proven, well I have not seen it, at least in recent years. Oil in regulators, as you say, was leached from the pipes but now the pipes are made of a rubber that leaches such a small percentage it will not happen. These things come from the past and although they may still occur, if your pipes are old, but will be fine if fairly new or you change them for pipes of the correct specification. This is yet another of those things, bit like reverse polarity being dangerous and Fiat x250 gear boxes, that keep cropping up. I just wish people, not refering to you here, would just stop living in the past.

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Guest JudgeMental
Mel B - 2011-02-24 8:29 PM

 

JudgeMental - 2011-02-24 11:38 AM

 

while the safe fill looks intersting, I can see problems refilling it until they are recognised by autogas retailers, and that aint going to happen any time soon.

 

If I cant transfer my system to new van (smaller locker) I will get another one, the price being far outweighed by the sheer convenience and ease of refill.....I went to local garage yesterday to fill up with gas as I did not realise I was running out. the thought of going back to bottled gas and all the associated hassle and lack of availability in mainland Europe is something I am not prepared to go back to.....

 

Eddie, why don't you simply offer to swap your larger bottles with someone who has smaller ones but wants larger ones .... :-S

 

 

maybe but how would i go about that? *-)

 

was thinking of a gas tank, as van probably going for is Hymer car 322 previously this was deisel heating - new vrsion gas but still only 2x 6 litre bottle compartment. Belgian dealer says there is a new flat profile 70 litre container, filler and BBQ point on side, and on dash meter for approx 900 euro-£760

 

maybe a bit over the top as I notice David Llyod has a 22 liter tank - is this equivilent to my 2x11kg tanks??*-) and if so how much gas? as belgian dealers 70 litre sounds a bit OTT for a panel van....what do you think? depends on how much gas a tank holds though

 

David, do you still have filler on side and where is your meter please? how much for the 22 litre tank fitted if you dont mind? and what dimentions is it?

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JudgeMental - 2011-02-27 9:36 AM

 

 

maybe a bit over the top as I notice David Llyod has a 22 liter tank - is this equivilent to my 2x11kg tanks??*-) and if so how much gas? as belgian dealers 70 litre sounds a bit OTT for a panel van....what do you think? depends on how much gas a tank holds though

 

11Kg = 20Litres (approx)

 

 

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Guest JudgeMental
lennyhb - 2011-02-27 11:10 AM

 

JudgeMental - 2011-02-27 9:36 AM

 

 

maybe a bit over the top as I notice David Llyod has a 22 liter tank - is this equivilent to my 2x11kg tanks??*-) and if so how much gas? as belgian dealers 70 litre sounds a bit OTT for a panel van....what do you think? depends on how much gas a tank holds though

 

11Kg = 20Litres (approx)

 

 

OK thanks Lenny, so currently I carry 40 litres of gas which is more than enough. So a 20 litre tank like David Lloyd has, would be approx 40 litres of gas as well...more then enough in a panel van I would think.....I thought 70 litres over the top!

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JudgeMental - 2011-02-27 9:36 AM

 

Mel B - 2011-02-24 8:29 PM

 

JudgeMental - 2011-02-24 11:38 AM

 

while the safe fill looks intersting, I can see problems refilling it until they are recognised by autogas retailers, and that aint going to happen any time soon.

 

If I cant transfer my system to new van (smaller locker) I will get another one, the price being far outweighed by the sheer convenience and ease of refill.....I went to local garage yesterday to fill up with gas as I did not realise I was running out. the thought of going back to bottled gas and all the associated hassle and lack of availability in mainland Europe is something I am not prepared to go back to.....

 

Eddie, why don't you simply offer to swap your larger bottles with someone who has smaller ones but wants larger ones .... :-S

 

 

maybe but how would i go about that? *-)

 

was thinking of a gas tank, as van probably going for is Hymer car 322 previously this was deisel heating - new vrsion gas but still only 2x 6 litre bottle compartment. Belgian dealer says there is a new flat profile 70 litre container, filler and BBQ point on side, and on dash meter for approx 900 euro-£760

 

maybe a bit over the top as I notice David Llyod has a 22 liter tank - is this equivilent to my 2x11kg tanks??*-) and if so how much gas? as belgian dealers 70 litre sounds a bit OTT for a panel van....what do you think? depends on how much gas a tank holds though

 

David, do you still have filler on side and where is your meter please? how much for the 22 litre tank fitted if you dont mind? and what dimentions is it?

 

Eddie the SG of LPG is .54 so if you divide the ltrs by this it will give you the answer. A 22 ltr tank is pretty small, about the same as two 6kg bottles, 70 ltrs is the other way and seems to me to big for a panel van. Personally would just keep the two 6kg bottle,s. We have a two 6kg Gaslow setup and it will last about 5-6 weeks, we normally go for about three weeks then fill next time we see a station. We do not use our van much in the winter, have a chalet for our skiing, so guess it depends what you want to do during this period.

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JudgeMental - 2011-02-24 11:38 AM

 

I notice David Llyod has a 22 liter tank - is this equivilent to my 2x11kg tanks??*-) and if so how much gas? as belgian dealers 70 litre sounds a bit OTT for a panel van....what do you think? depends on how much gas a tank holds though

 

David, do you still have filler on side and where is your meter please? how much for the 22 litre tank fitted if you dont mind? and what dimentions is it?

 

Hi judge

 

As Ruper123 says, it is around the same capacity as two 6kg cylinders which we find plenty for a four week trip in France and fill up before leaving northern france (better mix of propane to butane for the forthcoming cold weather!) it is fitted to the rear of the exhaust in a cradle. It is about 60cms long and has a diameter of 20 cms the filler is on the offside of the van (IH Tio RL) about in line with the tank. The system was specified at the time of ordering the new van (instead of gaslow cylinders) and, I think, was about £494 inclusive of fitting.

 

There is a cut off valve behind a protective cover on the tank itself but a secondary one is fitted inside the undersink locker before the manifold cutoff taps. This is to allow me to shut the gas off from inside (and, importantly, to show the eurotunnel staff it is shut off) and the LED gauge is placed next to the main control panel above the wardrobe.

 

I must admit, when we had (2 x 11kg) gaslow cylinders on our Sun Ti they lasted forever just about and were a bit over the top. It was also very handy to have the two cylinders so that as soon as one was empty I could switch over and then fill up as soon as practicable.

 

However, I needed to eliminate the tall gaslow cylinders from this van (for other interior design purposes) and the underslung option was a good compromise. It will mean just being careful about filling up when the gauge is on the last LED.

 

David

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JudgeMental - 2011-02-27 9:36 AM

 

Mel B - 2011-02-24 8:29 PM

 

Eddie, why don't you simply offer to swap your larger bottles with someone who has smaller ones but wants larger ones .... :-S

 

maybe but how would i go about that? *-)

 

Put an ad on the O&A site, UK campsites, etc, etc, etc, someone was doing it recently, I don't know if he got sorted, but it's worth a try, alternatively put them up for sale instead, or stick them on eBay. :-S

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1footinthegrave - 2011-02-26 6:18 PM

 

Interesting stuff, like most I have read about regulators failing when bulkhead types were introduced, industry experts said it was an oily substance being leached from the pipes and running down into the regulator. Does it not follow that this same oily substance would not have made its way through rubber type pipe work prior to this change and into appliances, if so I have never heard of it. Or have I led a sheltered life. If the advice is to clean the tanks periodically I wonder how one goes about it ( any ex employees of Calor out there ) Or is this just another non thing to fret about I wonder.

 

You've led a sheltered life...

 

'Contamination' finding its way into leisure vehicles' gas systems has been regularly reported in French motorhome magazines for as long as I've been reading them (over 10 years).

 

Initially, the problem was considered to be little more than a nuisance as the regulators being employed were quite inexpensive and, if the contamination managed to pass through the regulator, it was relatively easy (and cheap) to clean the valves/burners of the straightforward gas appliances that motorhome manufacturers were then installing.

 

Things changed when 'combination' heaters (like Truma's C-series range) became increasingly popular. Having to remove an (often difficult to access) large appliance from a motorhome to replace a blocked solenoid valve or clean the burners was not considered acceptable. And the problem wasn't just confined to sophisticated heaters as the more complex modern fridges were also proving vulnerable.

 

It was understood by everyone that the culprit was the LPG itself (this was bottled-gas, not 'autogas', by the way) and various suggestions were made on how to minimise the likelihood of contaminated gas reaching the regulator. But the peculiar idea that the contaminants were being 'leached' from flexible gas hoses was never put forward.

 

In the UK around 2005, when regulator failure started to be widespread and Truma was getting badly slagged off, a good deal of research work was done. On one side was Truma, who stated categorically that, whatever contaminants were damaging their regulators and whatever the source, the contaminants were not being 'leached' from Truma-marketed flexible hoses. On the other side was Calor, who put forward the 'leaching' theory, but weren't able to confirm this as NCC laboratory-testing was unable to replicate the problem. Calor's (and apparently also the NCC's) eventual conclusion was that the problem wasn't due to the LPG 'quality', but to the way regulators were being installed in leisure vehicles.

 

There's a long piece about this in MMM November 2010 (pages 198/200) in which Truma maintains its original stance adding:

 

"Please be advised that the fitting of the regulators above the gas bottle as recommended by the NCC and Calor has not solved the issue of contamination. There is also no documented evidence that the fitting of stainless steel hoses stops the contamination entering the regulators."

 

The MMM article also includes a statement from Calor that repeats the theory that the contamination problem is primarily down to incorrect regulator installation, though it's interesting to note that the original 'plasticisers leaching from gas-hoses' theory has not been put forward.

 

Of course it's the LPG itself where the problem lies - it's the obvious prime suspect and, if one assumes that gas bottles or autogas storage tanks can sometimes end up containing (as Truma puts it) "aggressive compounds", blocked regulators and/or damaged/disabled gas appliances will be a natural consequence.

 

In France, for several years, filters have been marketed to prevent contaminants in the LPG reaching the regulator. Examples are shown near the bottom of this webpage:

 

http://www.borel.fr/index.php/gpl-vehicule-loisir.html

 

These filter units aren't cheap (especially if you've got a 2-bottle system) and I'm not 100% convinced they'll work. About 4 years ago I looked into fitting a filter to my Hobby's gas system, as I'd has two Truma regulators fail. I gained the impression that the products then available were originally intended to filter liquid LPG not vapour. I remember e-mailing the Italian manufacturers asking about the filters' efficacy and also whether a filter-unit with a UK POL fitting was available, but I never received a reply. Rather like the Gaslow metal-centre hose was treated by UK leisure-vehicle owners as a panacea for the regulator-failure problem, so French camping-caristes nowadays seem to be falling in love with the gas-filter concept.

 

Regarding Your comment "If the advice is to clean the tanks periodically I wonder how one goes about it ( any ex employees of Calor out there )", this will not be relevant to Calor or any other supplier of bottled gas.

 

Calor has maintenance procedures for its canisters and, when a bottle is refurbished, its interior is steam cleaned. If there were to be contaminating residues in the bottle at that point, they won't be there afterwards. Conversely, a new refillable bottle may spend its whole projected life-span (15 years for a Gaslow canister) in a motorhome's gas locker and (as I suggested earlier) if 'muck' gets into that bottle, that's where it will stay.

 

I've drained the liquid dregs from my small-capacity composite gas-bottle a couple of times, but (realistically) this won't be practicable when a bottle is part of a 'fixed' installation. No idea how you'd deal with a fixed tank if you wanted to clean it internally in situ. Can't say bottle/tank cleaning is something I'd fret over unless there were evidence that cleaning the bottle/tank internally might actually be necessary.

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Guest 1footinthegrave

Prior to your post I had emailed Dometic their reply is below. Many of the points you make are confirmed. With conflicting "expert" opinions I frankly give up. I guess everyone must make their own judgement, oh dear.

 

We do not advise the use of Auto gas with our equipment, unlike LPG. The containers are not cleaned when the system becomes empty and this will leave dirt in the system which at some point will cause problems with your appliance, Also we advise the unit to be serviced much more regularly, 3-6 months and not the 12 month bases with LPG.

 

Auto gas requires much more maintenance of the system and can cause the system to fail.

 

Many thanks

__________________________________________________

Technical UK

 

----- Forwarded by Carl Perry/Dometic Ltd/United Kingdom/Dometic Group on 28/02/2011 13:18

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Guest pelmetman
Derek Uzzell - 2011-02-27 3:03 PM

 

In the UK around 2005, when regulator failure started to be widespread and Truma was getting badly slagged off, a good deal of research work was done. On one side was Truma, who stated categorically that, whatever contaminants were damaging their regulators and whatever the source, the contaminants were not being 'leached' from Truma-marketed flexible hoses. On the other side was Calor, who put forward the 'leaching' theory, but weren't able to confirm this as NCC laboratory-testing was unable to replicate the problem. Calor's (and apparently also the NCC's) eventual conclusion was that the problem wasn't due to the LPG 'quality', but to the way regulators were being installed in leisure vehicles.

 

Are regulators still failing on a regular basis? no pun intended :D As I am considering this system, this talk of dirty LPG has got me wondering, I might save on the fuel but have to spend out on new regulators and extra servicing if I pick up a load of mucky gas :-S

 

Maybe the "If it aint broke dont fix it" is the answer *-)

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1footinthegrave - 2011-02-28 3:17 PM

 

Prior to your post I had emailed Dometic their reply is below. Many of the points you make are confirmed. With conflicting "expert" opinions I frankly give up. I guess everyone must make their own judgement, oh dear.

 

We do not advise the use of Auto gas with our equipment, unlike LPG. The containers are not cleaned when the system becomes empty and this will leave dirt in the system which at some point will cause problems with your appliance, Also we advise the unit to be serviced much more regularly, 3-6 months and not the 12 month bases with LPG.

 

Auto gas requires much more maintenance of the system and can cause the system to fail.

 

Many thanks

__________________________________________________

Technical UK

 

----- Forwarded by Carl Perry/Dometic Ltd/United Kingdom/Dometic Group on 28/02/2011 13:18

 

I really have to wonder about some of these companies and their 'experts'. Autogas is LPG this bloke seems to think they are not the same 'animal'. How does it leave dirt in the system, if it does why do car injection systems not sffer the same fate. I have a Thetford fridge they do not seem to mind filling from a pump. Who services things like a fridge even every 12 months, I certainly never have, in fact my current one has now gone three years on pumped lpg with no service and no problems, this is frankly rubbish and as someone has said Dometic making excuses in advance. I agree you do have to make up your own mind but it is interesting that no one on here or MHF has ever said they have stopped using a fillible system because of problems caused,

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pelmetman - 2011-02-28 3:42 PM

 

Derek Uzzell - 2011-02-27 3:03 PM

 

In the UK around 2005, when regulator failure started to be widespread and Truma was getting badly slagged off, a good deal of research work was done. On one side was Truma, who stated categorically that, whatever contaminants were damaging their regulators and whatever the source, the contaminants were not being 'leached' from Truma-marketed flexible hoses. On the other side was Calor, who put forward the 'leaching' theory, but weren't able to confirm this as NCC laboratory-testing was unable to replicate the problem. Calor's (and apparently also the NCC's) eventual conclusion was that the problem wasn't due to the LPG 'quality', but to the way regulators were being installed in leisure vehicles.

 

Are regulators still failing on a regular basis? no pun intended :D As I am considering this system, this talk of dirty LPG has got me wondering, I might save on the fuel but have to spend out on new regulators and extra servicing if I pick up a load of mucky gas :-S

 

Maybe the "If it aint broke dont fix it" is the answer *-)

 

This was nothing to do with pumped LPG but from filled bottles and anyway, as Derek,s post points out the conclusion was how regulators were installed. I would also point out this is from 2005, things change over time but people still fail to understand this. You have as much chance of picking up a load of dirty lpg as you have getting a tank of dirty diesel, not much these days.

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