pusscat Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 Hi, I'm looking to get a fairly modern motorhome (not new) and fell in love with the fiats 2.3 250 based systems...then found out about the Juddergate issue. From doing a bit of searching, it appears the 'fix' may not fully rectify it (if that is it's considered by fiat to warrant fixing), some people who have it may not actually realise it and not consider it a problem etc and I just didn't want to risk those hard earned pounds on a gamble. Can someone please tell me which year and models this problem effects? If I can look at earlier models between a couple of dates where the problem didn't occur, I should have a fairly safe base point to start looking at engine performance / conversion styles etc. Obviously, earlier models will no doubt have their own problems (any pointers welcome!) but hopefully nothing quite so fundamental. With thanks, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 All models after 2006. Though not all vehicles are affected or the owners deem it a problem at all, including myself. Depends on driving experience / style / expectations. Best thing is test drive the vehicle yourself, especially in reverse and up a slope and see if the high reverse gear ratio is a problem to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mirage Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 Agree with last post I have`nt had any problem so far with a Panel Van. Far from it the drive is far more car like and with plenty of power compared to earlier engine i.e. 2.8JTD & 2.8TD, relatively quiet and smooth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 Just be aware that many secondhand vans for sale are only secondhand and for sale due to juddergate problems and have been traded in by frustrated and disillusioned first owners. That is not to say that they are all bad - apparantly - but there does not seem to be any hard and fast reasons why one van does and another van does not judder? It is easy to blame the driver and in some cases it may well be true that a lack of experience or technique is a contributory factor but there is no getting away from the fact that the reverse gear ratio is far too high for safe reversing with the clutch fully engaged. Every good driver could make any vehicle judder if they try hard enough but not every driver can prevent a vehicle prone to juddering from juddering - if you see what I mean! Best advice is a thorough test drive including slow reversing up a gradient and if it judders walk away from it because when the transmission fails you will be on your own and facing a mega bill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 Hi pusscat and welcome to the forum - indeed, welcome to the wonderful world of motorhoming! That said you are right to make extensive enquiries before purchase and to try, as much as is possible, to get it right as the alternative can be costly - not just financially but emotionally if you get the wrong van for you. When we replaced our previous (2005 model Fiat Ducato 2.8jtd panel van) we held off initially because of the judder problem being reported. Even then there were mixed reports but, not wishing to risk it, we chose a new panel van based on the new Fiat Ducato X/250 but with the 3.0l engine and Comfortmatic Gearbox (which, unfortunately, is only available on the Ducato and only on the 3.0l) because the particular make and model we wanted was based on the Ducato. I have to say we have not had any problem whatsoever and the difference between this and the previous model Ducato is enormous in terms of drive, comfort and economy. However, if I were looking to get the same model but on the previous base vehicle I would be looking for a late model (2006) Ducato with the 2.8jtd engine. The main reason is that the previous model Ducato did have some frustrating and annoying problems that were also well reported at the time but, by the final 'face lift' versions these had been designed out and were much improved. As others have said, if you do find a model that you feel is right for you but happens to be on the X/250 chassis then make sure you give it a good test drive first and even ask the seller if they have had the fis done and to show proof of it. Good luck with the search. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave225 Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 I have read a ot of correspondence on this issue in the mags such as MMM. It only occurs on the latest model types. It also appears that Peugeot accepted that there was a problem fairly early on and replaced the gear box with a lower ratio reverse, whcih cures the problem. Fiat however, did not do this and usually offer stiffer engine mountings as a so called cure. Only after lots of 'persuasion' will they do a similar fix as Peugeot, however owners can offer better information than my 2nd hand accounts. It seems the the problem is mostly confined to the larger coachbuilts where the weight is an issue and the reverse gear is too high. A burnt clutch is usually the first thing to happen. Engine size does not seem to be a factor and all sizes can have, or have not the problem, although as the 100 bhp model is only fitted to smaller vans then again there is not an issue. Panel vans do not suffer due to the lower weight. Fiats fitted with the 'automatic' gearbox are not affected as this already has a lower reverse gear ratio. As to whether this is a reason for a low mileage model to be offered for sale is anybody's guess. As mentioned do a test drive and reverse the machine before parting with your cash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 My X2/50 Maxi 3.5 tonne panel van was made in March 2008, about a year before the final fix was introduced. The only reason I know about the reverse gear problem is through reading about it on the internet. Since it was brought to my attention I have realized reverse gear is a bit higher than would be ideal, but it has never been a problem. I chose not to apply for the fix as I doubt the garage would strip and rebuild the gearbox to factory standards. I am absolutely delighted with my X2/50 van and have no intention of selling it. Perhaps part of the problem may be that some people expect a £50k motorhome to drive like a £50k car? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnsue Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 Hi Not sure if this is of any help but we have a Fiat 2.8 with the comformatic gear box 2008 model, purchased new, have not experienced any reversing problems. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corky 8 Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 Hi Pussycat,Welcome to the forum, I bought a new Burstner (then 2008) with (spit) Fiat chassis /engine 2.3 /250, worst thing I ever did , I have been a HGV driver for many years, and consider myself a good driver no accidents to date,Ive drove some very large HGV and Ive drove small vans, In my Opinion, the reverse judder I experienced when reversing in my motorhome had nothing to do with Driver experience, the reverse gear train was to high a ratio for the weight of the vehicle, sure you could ride the clutch and control it( some want to call that Ability),but should you have to would you want to and what will be the eventual outcome of riding the clutch, My Motorhome went in and had the first fix with no positive results ,it then went back in and the full so call fix, that did help but to my reckoning,it did not cure it , to top it all it then suffered problems with the fuel valve for no apparent reason, fixed under warranty ,the I sold it to a dealer,at a great loss,but what price peace of mind.You are going in the right direction read all the comment and reports about the problem, remember also that (spit) Fiat, Peugeot,and Citroen all come from the same Sevel factory, I had an old school chum come to visit in their motorhome and stay on our drive , you could smell the clutch as he reversed into possition on the drive, he was totally unaware of the Problem (his first Motorhome) He thought that it was his Inexperience with the clutch that caused the smell (burning) and he was a white vanman, Mercedes sprinter,he did get the fix eventually, he now has a new caravan, Choose Carefully as its a lot of money if you get it wrong. this is my experience , other,s will differ. Good Luck whatever you choose, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 john&sue - 2011-02-27 9:00 PM Hi Not sure if this is of any help but we have a Fiat 2.8 with the comformatic gear box 2008 model, purchased new, have not experienced any reversing problems. :-) 2.8 (?) After 2006 there is only the 2.2 , 2.3, and 3.0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pusscat Posted February 27, 2011 Author Share Posted February 27, 2011 Hi all, thanks for the comments so far...mine field! I was considering a panel van or monocoque... now maybe leaning more towards a panel. H'mm so anything 2006 and maybe the year before with a 2.8 should theoretically be OK.. ( any idea of MPG on a panel, LWB 2.8 and would chipping help increase that?). The newer ones are lovely but knowing my luck I'd get one that test drives OK but falls apart in the middle of a Greek 'back of beyond' whilst trying to reverse back up one of those lovely inviting little steep roads that leads no-where! What were the engineers thinking of! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnsue Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 :-S My mistake yes ours is 3.o . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Jones Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 Welcome "pusscat." Only one suggestion: Buy a Ford. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 Tony Jones - 2011-02-27 10:07 PM Welcome "pusscat." Only one suggestion: Buy a Ford. LOL look on the Transit forum, plenty there to put you off.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 I think you will find the factory started producing modified vans from first quarter of 2009. so going by that any mid 2009 van onward SHOULD be OK? *-) But please do not take my word for it I know little? Please await expert opinion......... I am buying a new Fiat based panel van and feel it should be OK now :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Collings Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 The Ducatos produced 2003 - 2006 are generally considered to have had the serious bugs ironed out. Pre 2003 there was the weak fifth gear and after 2006 serious consideration had to be given to uphill retreats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 Pre Judergate and it was the 5th gear problem (see other forum posts on this), oh and don,t forget the water ingress problems as well. C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebishbus Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 Hi. I think the Pre 2003 5th gear problem only occurred if the oil level was low, or water entered the box. Brian B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 pusscat - 2011-02-27 9:49 PM I was considering a panel van or monocoque... now maybe leaning more towards a panel. Andy's van which has had two wreaked gearbox's was a PVC, so no logic to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 The X250 is the best M/H base vehicle their is at present and has been since it came out. Some had problems with the reverse gear but Fiat have sold tens of thousands of these and the problem with high reverse has been on relativly few. The fix that was done, if required, has now been around for some time and from the lack of complaints in the last year it has been sucessfull. However as has been said try one for youself and ask for proof it has been modified. Personally, like others, mine has been fine and has now done 26,000 miles with no problems at all. I had a 2.8 before this and their is no comparison between them, buy the X250. As to other makes of base vehicle they have just as many problems, just go on any forum for that make and you will see. Also if you want a recent second hand or new and discount Fiat your choice will be very limited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 I have a 2.8 2004 panel van conversion, get around 31 / 33 mpg driven with a feather light foot, rather oddly I used to get more mpg from a 2003 2.3 jtd that I traded in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melvin Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Apart from the reverse problem the X250 is an excellent powertrain, our 2008 Autotrail Cheynne 660 2.3 was one of the first to be modified, the works being carried out by Platts Stoke on Trent, who carried out an excellent job. However, was I pleased with the results, the answer 'no'. The reverse gear should have been much, but, due to the internal dimension of the gearbox casing this proved not possible. Part of the blame needs to fall with the coach builders, our Autotrail Cheynne 660 overhang behind the rear axle is near on 50% of the wheelbase, not only does this amplify the reverse problem, it causes the rear end to 'snake' about on the dual/motorways when caught out by the deep tramline made by the heavy trucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 1footinthegrave - 2011-02-28 6:35 AM I have a 2.8 2004 panel van conversion, get around 31 / 33 mpg driven with a feather light foot, rather oddly I used to get more mpg from a 2003 2.3 jtd that I traded in. I have the Citroen Relay 2.2 120hp engine (Maxi van, bit longer than the professional panel van conversions), according to the Citroen Handbook mine is the thirstiest engine in the X250. Now done 12,000 miles. Since new I have got 33mpg, usually with a feather light foot. But I do a lot of short runs, a couple of miles, park up, engine gets cold again. Also run the engine when stationary to charge the battery sometimes. So 33mpg is not the best that could be achieved. But average whitevanman racing the clock would no doubt get less. I digress slightly but I remember reading about a Brownhills customer who had an accessory fitted at their North East branch. When he picked it up he found the thread of a self tapping screw sticking out through the side of the van. (Annoying yes, but who has never made a daft mistake like that, particularly when in a rush?) He would not accept the tiny hole being filled in and demanded the van be restored to new condition. Brownhills paid for it to be transported down to the factory on the south coast and had a complete new side fitted. (No wonder dealers prices are so expensive?) Imagine a customer like that buys an early X250 van like mine, reverse gear a bit higher than would be ideal. There are some people who would just never let it go.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickt Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 I have a low line on a 2.8jtd and get on average 27mpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Melvin - 2011-02-28 8:28 AM Part of the blame needs to fall with the coach builders, our Autotrail Cheynne 660 overhang behind the rear axle is near on 50% of the wheelbase, not only does this amplify the reverse problem, it causes the rear end to 'snake' about on the dual/motorways when caught out by the deep tramline made by the heavy trucks. I think you have hit the nail on the head there. Whoever designed the X2/50 was obviously very clever, but never anticipated the amount of rear overhang some converters would use. None of the Sevel produced vans have anything like as much rear overhang. But Fiat marketing declared it a van designed to be a motorhome. A breakdown in communication perhaps. I suppose a longer wheelbase base vehicle would cost more, require more ground clearance in the middle, and reduce the turning circle. Cheaper and easier just to tack a longer bit of steel channel on the back to lengthen it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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