mikemelson Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Strapping the doors together is not a paticularly good idea, the thieves can have the quarterlight out in a flash using a Stanley knife & then cut through the straps. Having deadlocks fitted is the best solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ips Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 All these stories do not make me want to stay anywere other than a propper campsite (or CS in the UK) for the sake of less than £10 for a peacefull nights sleep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
t5tripper Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Crikey, what scary stories.... we are only in the Uk for the next few years but will only stay on site, are the CS sites usually safe enough? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
t5tripper Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Crikey, what scary stories.... we are only in the Uk for the next few years but will only stay on site, are the CS sites usually safe enough? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ips Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 CS sites in UK are generally very safe, I have never heard of anyone having any problems. Our C&CC CS is definately safe ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGD Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Arthur Brown - 2011-03-15 10:01 PM Don't buy CS gas or the like. As has been said they are illegal in the UK. If you have a problem use hair spray or any other pressure vessel, the contents hurt for a while but the surprise does the necessary. Important!!! Once you have used such a device do not stand and admire your handywork, get the hell out of it, you have bought a little time - use it. Art That depends on your attitude to someone breaking into your home and threatening you and your wife. I would use the time to finish the job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caroline Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 ips - CS sites in UK are generally very safe, I have never heard of anyone having any problems. Our C&CC CS is definately safe ;-) Here! Here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 BGD - 2011-03-16 3:07 PM Arthur Brown - 2011-03-15 10:01 PM Don't buy CS gas or the like. As has been said they are illegal in the UK. If you have a problem use hair spray or any other pressure vessel, the contents hurt for a while but the surprise does the necessary. Important!!! Once you have used such a device do not stand and admire your handywork, get the hell out of it, you have bought a little time - use it. Art That depends on your attitude to someone breaking into your home and threatening you and your wife. I would use the time to finish the job. Understandable that you would want to do that BGD but you have to remember that in here the UK the law is generally on the side of the criminal. We're not allowed to be nasty to them until AFTER they have attacked one of the family. I think it's considered their human right to get in the first blow. :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Brown Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Look guys, you do what you think is right in given circumstances. However, you need to remember a few basic rules. For example, it is lawful to use a shotgun to protect your family in certain circumstances. If you shoot someone in the back you will not have protection as the victim was running away, the advice must surely be to shoot them in the front as you were terrified for your life or that of your family. In the same vein, if you use CS gas or similar then you have shown an intention to disable etc, if however you use a fly spray or hair spray or indeed any other air activated spray then that would suggest you picked up the first thing you got your hands on to protect yourself. None of these things are offensive weapons in themselves but used incorrectly are deemed to be so. The overriding factor is that you are terrified for your, or your family's lives and used the first thing which came to hand to try and protect them. I agree, the underliying wish is to do onto others etc but having been wronged why put yourself on the wrong side of the fence. Do what you can at the time and leave punishment to others. Say the right things when interviewed. My point is that it is difficult to say the right things when you have just shot someone in the back - no matter how much they deserved it. Think, most people, including the law have sympathy with certain actions but are tied to what people say when asked or to the circumstances which present themselves at the time. Dont shoot someone in the back, don't use a premeditated material like CS gas, any air operated canister will cause the necessary problem. I am of the school that gets the hell out of it and call the law but if you feel retribution is necessary then at least make sure your actions do not make you the villain instead of the victim. Hope I make myself clear. I am not on the side of the wrongdoer but I get frustrated when the victim makes themselves the villain by their actions. Think it out in the cold light of day for the occasion it may happen and hope you never need to recall this advice. Art Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemelson Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 We are talking about France & Spain here where it not illegal to possess pepper spray. If you did give some thieving east european gyppo a blast in the face as they were trying to break into your 'van, I can't imagine the guardia arresting you, they would probably give you a pat on the back & give the gyppo a good kicking out of sight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Wasn't it a bloke named I think Tony Martin, who was confronted in the dark by three men at his isolated farmhouse, he proceeded to shoot one in the back, and was hung out to dry for his actions. How on earth was he to know they were not going to bring other A*****s to continue their assault on him. I'd have loved for one of our judges to have been in a similar position, then see how they would react. It should be as clear as day, the very moment you try, or attempt to harm or steal from anyone, whatever the circumstances you should be able to do ANYTHING to defend yourself, including shooting them in the back, end of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aultymer Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 My feeling is that you are no more 'at risk' on any camping spot than we are at our isolated cottage. My wife has instructions that if she sees an intruder (I will sleep through anything) that she should discharge a fire extingusher in their face. We will be happy to defend that action in any court. CO2 causes painfull but non life threatening 'burns' giving you time to remove intruders and get the hell out of it - to nearest police station to report the intrusion. A fire extinguisher or 3 should be within reach in every van and could never be described as an offensive weapon in any jurisdiction. Pepper sprays, airguns and baseball bats are all 'offensive' in some countries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 1footinthegrave - 2011-03-16 10:07 PM Wasn't it a bloke named I think Tony Martin, who was confronted in the dark by three men at his isolated farmhouse, he proceeded to shoot one in the back, and was hung out to dry for his actions. How on earth was he to know they were not going to bring other A*****s to continue their assault on him. I'd have loved for one of our judges to have been in a similar position, then see how they would react. It should be as clear as day, the very moment you try, or attempt to harm or steal from anyone, whatever the circumstances you should be able to do ANYTHING to defend yourself, including shooting them in the back, end of. A few facts; Tony Martin was banned from the local neighborhood watch meetings because of his wild rantings and threats to shoot trespassers. The neighbourhood watch coordinator who banned him, a retired police officer, was sufficiently concerned to contact the local police station and tell the duty officer that he considered Martin was a 'loose cannon' and 'very dangerous' The duty officer told him not to worry because Martin was banned from keeping a gun. This was a couple of weeks before the murder. Martin refused to say how he had obtained the murder weapon, which was a Winchester Pump Action Shotgun, more like a machine gun that a farmer's gun. Martin claimed he had shot the boy in his house as he was coming down the stairs. Police forensics proved the boy was out in the yard and running away when shot in the back. For Martin to have been where he claimed to be when he fired the fatal shot, the bullet would have had to travel down the stairs, levelled out, turned round two corners as it crossed the kitchen, and went out through the door into the yard where the boy was shot in the back as he was running away. Martin did not report what had happened, so the boy was left to die a slow and agonizing death overnight. Contrary to popular belief, the law is very supportive of property owners who attack intruders. The law was even strong enough to protect gangster Kenneth Noye when he stabbed to death an undercover police officer in his garden because Noye believed the police officer to be a burglar. Noye got away with it. But its not unlimited. It doesn't give the property owner the right to keep an illegal firearm, take pot shots at trespassers, and lie to the court. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGD Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 1footinthegrave - 2011-03-16 10:07 PM Wasn't it a bloke named I think Tony Martin, who was confronted in the dark by three men at his isolated farmhouse, he proceeded to shoot one in the back, and was hung out to dry for his actions. How on earth was he to know they were not going to bring other A*****s to continue their assault on him. I'd have loved for one of our judges to have been in a similar position, then see how they would react. It should be as clear as day, the very moment you try, or attempt to harm or steal from anyone, whatever the circumstances you should be able to do ANYTHING to defend yourself, including shooting them in the back, end of. Please look again at the actual facts of that case, and not any hype about what some bloke said to another bloke in the pub about it. I'm rather fed up of people mis-quoting the Martin case as though the chap was a martyr. He was not. Now I'm really sorry if the actual facts of the case get in the way of the rabid "kill 'em all regardless of circumstances" brigade, but they are an inconvenient truth: Martin shot one guy inside his cottage, in the pitch dark, as he came face to face with the burglar on his stairs. He shot him in the chest, as he and the intruder confronted each other in the dark. The Police and more importantly the CPS had NO PROBLEM with that action. He was NOT charged with any offence whatsoever for maiming this attempted burglar. The other guy then ran away. Note: ran away. Out of the house, off his land, and down the lane. Martin ran after him, off his property and pursued him beyond there and on down the lane. When he realised that the guy was getting away from him, he fired at him with his shotgun, shooting him square in the back as he continued to run away. He then went back to his house, told no-one about the shooting, so the guy bled to death overnight. Now, the CPS took him to court for that. And it was a JURY that decided that this action went well beyond self-defence and convicted him of murder. I have to say that i think most rational people would come to the same conclusion. The guy was no longer a threat. he was no longer on the owners property. he was running away down the lane as fast as his legs would carry him. yet Martin stopped running, calmly brought the shotgun to bear, and fired straight at him. That was not self defence. The jury were right. Now remember that since that case, the Home Secretary has issued clearer guidance to the CPS and Judges as to the balance between self-defence and assault ins such circumstances. Such guidelines have STRENGTHENED the householders position. Self defence now does not have to be "reasonable", it only needs to be not "wholly disproportionate" in the circumstances. This is good news. But even under the new guidance, Tony Martin was way over the line when he ran off his property in pursuit of a burglar who had run away, and then shot the guy in the back in the lane with his illegally owned shotgun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Thank you for that BGD. We might also consider what message would it give to burglars if Martin had got away with murder. If the householder appears, Attack him with all force, don't turn and run because he is allowed to shoot you in the back as you are running away? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 I know I'm going to upset the apple cart, but I don't know what planet some of you are on. This was a man, not a young man, he could have been any man, who in the pitch dark of his own home finds THREE burglars in his house, a house that had been broken into on many occasions, and perhaps wrongly armed himself, as we all know the Police are hardly likely to turn up even assuming the burglars would have minded him saying "do you mind if I use the phone please". I think even though he was described as a loose cannon do you not think for one minute this was a man under siege, listening to every creak in his house ( ramshackle or not ) wondering if this time would be the time he would be seriously assaulted or worse. I think for anyone to really appreciate his mindset they need to have first suffered the trauma of awaking in the night to find THREE male's creeping up your stairs, then see what yOUR adrenalin levels are like. Or is the advice to sit there calmly and collected, read up what you can or cannot do, perhaps a handy leaflet on the bedside table to refer to. Why anyone would give any of these low lifes any defense at all is beyond me. Shot in the back, he was running away so we are told, or could Martin have thought he was running to get help from other low lifes, how would he know, so what should not have been there in the first place, sorry for me one less A******* in the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Madge Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Arthur Brown - 2011-03-14 10:03 PM Be aware! Use the Aires in both France and Spain. It is most probable that another motor home will be using the Aire so there is safety in numbers. Art Hi Art, That is an "Urban Myth" the more motorhomes just means the scumbags have more choice. Don't expect anybody to come to your aid if you are being attacked at night. Would you get out of your van at night to help somebody? Would anybody on the forum do it? Safe travelling. Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 1footinthegrave - 2011-03-17 9:17 AM I know I'm going to upset the apple cart, but I don't know what planet some of you are on. This was a man, not a young man, he could have been any man, who in the pitch dark of his own home finds THREE burglars in his house, a house that had been broken into on many occasions, and perhaps wrongly armed himself, as we all know the Police are hardly likely to turn up even assuming the burglars would have minded him saying "do you mind if I use the phone please". I think even though he was described as a loose cannon do you not think for one minute this was a man under siege, listening to every creak in his house ( ramshackle or not ) wondering if this time would be the time he would be seriously assaulted or worse. I think for anyone to really appreciate his mindset they need to have first suffered the trauma of awaking in the night to find THREE male's creeping up your stairs, then see what yOUR adrenalin levels are like. Or is the advice to sit there calmly and collected, read up what you can or cannot do, perhaps a handy leaflet on the bedside table to refer to. Why anyone would give any of these low lifes any defense at all is beyond me. Shot in the back, he was running away so we are told, or could Martin have thought he was running to get help from other low lifes, how would he know, so what should not have been there in the first place, sorry for me one less A******* in the world. You put the word THREE in capital letters and use it twice. Are you sure about that. The version I heard is that one of the three was waiting with the getaway car some distance away, and that the boy never went in the house. He had apparently been told he was just going to help collect some equipment from the grounds that the others had left there on a previous failed burglary attempt. I lived close to the Barras family. Although I never knew any of them I heard from neighbors that the boy was a bit of a rogue, as was perhaps inevitable growing up on a sink estate, but not a nasty person at all. If he had been they might have attacked Martin and got away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Don Madge - 2011-03-17 10:04 AM Would you get out of your van at night to help somebody? Don If it was someone I knew then I would. The toe rags wouldn't know who was traveling together, or if any witnesses were watching out of their van window and phoning the police. So I still think several vans are better than just one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGD Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 1footinthegrave - 2011-03-17 9:17 AM I know I'm going to upset the apple cart, but I don't know what planet some of you are on. This was a man, not a young man, he could have been any man, who in the pitch dark of his own home finds THREE burglars in his house, a house that had been broken into on many occasions, and perhaps wrongly armed himself, as we all know the Police are hardly likely to turn up even assuming the burglars would have minded him saying "do you mind if I use the phone please". I think even though he was described as a loose cannon do you not think for one minute this was a man under siege, listening to every creak in his house ( ramshackle or not ) wondering if this time would be the time he would be seriously assaulted or worse. I think for anyone to really appreciate his mindset they need to have first suffered the trauma of awaking in the night to find THREE male's creeping up your stairs, then see what yOUR adrenalin levels are like. Or is the advice to sit there calmly and collected, read up what you can or cannot do, perhaps a handy leaflet on the bedside table to refer to. Why anyone would give any of these low lifes any defense at all is beyond me. Shot in the back, he was running away so we are told, or could Martin have thought he was running to get help from other low lifes, how would he know, so what should not have been there in the first place, sorry for me one less A******* in the world. If you really insist on continuing this Tony Martin case diversion, is there any chance at all that you could follow the advice I gave you in my earlier post, and actually tell the truth about what happened? From the Crown Court trial report: "On the night of 20 August 1999, two burglars – Brendon Fearon, 29, and Fred Barras, 16 – broke into Bleak House." Two. D'ya see? Not "THREE". Two. Fearson was the guy who survived being shot in the initial confrontation on the stairs, Barras was the youth who bled to death outside his property having been shot in the back. Now your suggesting other possible scenarios with "couldv'e", "might've" etc is, with respect, utterly irrelevant. Because they are NOT what happened. The Jury got all the facts about what actually happened. They were even advised that they could return a Manslaughter verdict instead of murder. But by a 10-2 majority they judged it to be murder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Thank you for the clarification BGD. Incidentally, I remember people calling for a compulsory death sentence for murder. Then going all quiet when their hero Tony Martin was convicted of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelly58 Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 I carry an extending wheel brace behind the passenger seat which would inflict a nasty bruise a baseball bat would be very handy but you must also have a ball with it so its then a piece of sports equiptment and not a weapon, A large tin of Fly Spray is also a good weapon to use in self defence a good spray in the face would deter any robber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patricia Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Back to the original thread! Like Fiona I now travel alone but on occasions find it necessary to stay overnight on service areas because the route that I have to travel is without open campsites for several months of the year and there are very few aires. Sometimes I calculate that it is safer to do that than to plough on overtired (tiredness can overtake lone travellers without reason or, more importantly, warning) although I am well aware of the dangers and by choice use campsites. Both my daughters have suffered actual or attempted break-ins - one was actually alongside my 'van but their dog frightened the prospective thieves away before they could actually enter (marks on the outside of the 'van proved the attempt). This was on a very well lit service area and the lorry park was right behind. There was no town near which does make me a little suspicious as to who the perpetrators might have been! By choice I prefer the quieter aires without petrol and refreshments on the probably misconception that they may be safer (?). However, I do take as many precautions as I can. I have extra locks, an alarm, a chain between the doors which is too strong to cut (I hope!), a gas alarm and the dog. All valuables are in the safe and I try to stop to exercise the dog before I get too tired so that as soon as I stop I can draw the blinds. Anyone watching will be unaware that there is no male in the 'van. I have no idea at all how I would react if someone tried to get in but hopefully I could at least alert the police by telephone. I hope I would have the sense not to do anything else but as a redhead not sure! I do not feel more or less safe on an aire or when I occasionally park in a Buffalo Gril car park. In England, just the same, I do not go into the service area buildings and walk the dog in sight of the 'van and lock all doors when I re-enter. Sad truth is that nowhere is really safe these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terryW Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 I said earlier that in all our years we have never experienced a problem but we did once cause friends of ours to overnight with their caravan on a motorway service area near Barcelona waiting for us. They were parked with the lorries and in the middle of the night someone tried the door, my friend pulled the blind up on the door window and came face to face with the *&@#. By the time my friend got out the *&@# had disappeared into one of the lorries never to be seen again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Peter James - 2011-03-17 11:50 AM Thank you for the clarification BGD. Incidentally, I remember people calling for a compulsory death sentence for murder. Then going all quiet when their hero Tony Martin was convicted of it. Yes I would have dispatched him without a second thought!....Mind you I do that most of the time anyway :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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