Tyres; Best prices

[starvin marvin]

Having to have two new tyres on the Micra for its MOT, reminded me that I've been threatening for months to check the age of the tyres on the van.

 

The result is the Firestone Vanhawks on the front are marked 2087, which I understands means manufactured in week 20 of 2007 so ok, am I correct?.

 

The rears are Michelin Agilis marked 1801 which again I take to mean week 18 of 2001 so should be replaced, which surprised me slightly as I didn't think Agilis had been around for 10 years. The fitter checked both walls and treads and could see no cracking. These are 215/70R15C the first price quoted to replace the Agilis with Continental Vanco is £118.50 + vat per tyre, and I can have these by the next day.

 

So I'm off to check prices. Any advice on suppliers?

 

Many thanks

[Brock]

Last weekend, after waiting delivery of tyres for several weeks, I replaced all 5 of my tyres with Michelin Agilas Camping 215/70 15 at ATS Euromaster. Total cost £720. I don't care if I can find them cheaper, I have trusted ATS since 1993 on cars, caravans, and motorhomes and have never had a problem.

 

Actual tyres were £133 each including VAT. Rest was disposal costs, wheel balancing, tubeless valves.

 

My advice is to find somewhere you trust and get a competitive price from them.

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

starvin marvin - 2011-08-18 4:42 PM

 

Having to have two new tyres on the Micra for its MOT, reminded me that I've been threatening for months to check the age of the tyres on the van.

 

The result is the Firestone Vanhawks on the front are marked 2087, which I understands means manufactured in week 20 of 2007 so ok, am I correct?.

 

The rears are Michelin Agilis marked 1801 which again I take to mean week 18 of 2001 so should be replaced, which surprised me slightly as I didn't think Agilis had been around for 10 years. The fitter checked both walls and treads and could see no cracking. These are 215/70R15C the first price quoted to replace the Agilis with Continental Vanco is £118.50 + vat per tyre, and I can have these by the next day.

 

So I'm off to check prices. Any advice on suppliers?

 

Many thanks

 

I assume you meant to say that your Firestone Vanhawks are marked "2007", rather than "2087".

 

A tyre manufacturing-date marking of "2007" would indicate that the tyre had been made in the 20th week of 2007.

 

A manufacturing-date marking of "2087" would (in theory) show that the tyre had been made in the 20th week of 2087, which is plainly incorrect. (I'm not being a smart-ass here, as there's the small chance that the "2087" datum you quoted was not a typing mistake and you've been looking at tyre-wall information that doesn't relate to the manufactiring date.)

 

For more information see:

 

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=11

 

I don't know when Michelin introduced the Agilis name but, as your rear tyres' markings reveal, it was at least 10 years ago. "Agilis" was initially used with a suffix (Agilis 41, 51, 61, 81 or 101) to indicate the ply-rating (4, 5, 6, 8 or 10) of the various Agilis pattern ranges - yours will be Agilis 81. Nowadays, although Michelin continues to use the Agilis name, the ply-rating suffix has ben dropped.

 

I can't recommend a supplier. What I did when I had some of my Hobby's tyres changed recently was to visit the Black Circles website and check who provided a local fitting service via

 

http://www.blackcircles.com/order/garages

 

I then looked at the customer comments and (rather than order the tyres on-line) directly contacted the fitting centre that seemed most suitable and who could supply the tyres I wanted at a competitive price.

[starvin marvin]

Derek Uzzell - 2011-08-20 9:15 AM

 

starvin marvin - 2011-08-18 4:42 PM

 

Having to have two new tyres on the Micra for its MOT, reminded me that I've been threatening for months to check the age of the tyres on the van.

 

The result is the Firestone Vanhawks on the front are marked 2087, which I understands means manufactured in week 20 of 2007 so ok, am I correct?.

 

The rears are Michelin Agilis marked 1801 which again I take to mean week 18 of 2001 so should be replaced, which surprised me slightly as I didn't think Agilis had been around for 10 years. The fitter checked both walls and treads and could see no cracking. These are 215/70R15C the first price quoted to replace the Agilis with Continental Vanco is £118.50 + vat per tyre, and I can have these by the next day.

 

So I'm off to check prices. Any advice on suppliers?

 

Many thanks

 

I assume you meant to say that your Firestone Vanhawks are marked "2007", rather than "2087".

 

A tyre manufacturing-date marking of "2007" would indicate that the tyre had been made in the 20th week of 2007.

 

A manufacturing-date marking of "2087" would (in theory) show that the tyre had been made in the 20th week of 2087, which is plainly incorrect. (I'm not being a smart-ass here, as there's the small chance that the "2087" datum you quoted was not a typing mistake and you've been looking at tyre-wall information that doesn't relate to the manufactiring date.)

 

For more information see:

 

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=11

 

I don't know when Michelin introduced the Agilis name but, as your rear tyres' markings reveal, it was at least 10 years ago. "Agilis" was initially used with a suffix (Agilis 41, 51, 61, 81 or 101) to indicate the ply-rating (4, 5, 6, 8 or 10) of the various Agilis pattern ranges - yours will be Agilis 81. Nowadays, although Michelin continues to use the Agilis name, the ply-rating suffix has ben dropped.

 

I can't recommend a supplier. What I did when I had some of my Hobby's tyres changed recently was to visit the Black Circles website and check who provided a local fitting service via

 

http://www.blackcircles.com/order/garages

 

I then looked at the customer comments and (rather than order the tyres on-line) directly contacted the fitting centre that seemed most suitable and who could supply the tyres I wanted at a competitive price.

 

Derek, thanks for the reply. I can't re-check the dates at the moment because my vans away for its MOT, however I did check twice (with a tyre fitter) the "date markings" and I'm certain they were 2087.

 

I've tried the Black Circle web site you suggested, but I can't see how to obtain phone numbers, the site only shows addresses. There are a couple close to me, about a mile or so away so a drive by is req'd. Although I've lived here 30+ years I've never used either before.

 

I'll let you know how I get on, many thanks.

[scramblers]

A couple of years ago I replaced all the tyres on my previous motorhome with camper tyres and got a good deal from Event Tyres. The tyres were cheaper than anywhere else and they fit them on your drive (or where ever you store your motorhome).

 

http://www.event-tyres.co.uk/

 

They may have your preferred tyres in stock or offer an alternative camper tyre.

[Derek Uzzell]

starvin marvin - 2011-08-23 12:29 PM

 

...I've tried the Black Circle web site you suggested, but I can't see how to obtain phone numbers, the site only shows addresses. There are a couple close to me, about a mile or so away so a drive by is req'd. Although I've lived here 30+ years I've never used either before...

 

I think I just used GOOGLE to search for tyre-fitting, or garage services, at the location/address shown on the Black Circle website. Essentially, if you stick an address obtained from the Black Circle website in GOOGLE, you'll (usually) get alternative sets of information about the company based there, and one (or more) of those sets of information will pretty much certainly include a phone number.

 

In your case, I agree that you might as well visit the local tyre-fitting places as they are so close to you. That way you may be able to get some sort of gut-feeling about their competence - never a bad thing.

[starvin marvin]

Currently the best prices I've found for premium tyres that are immediately available for 215/70 R15 are;

 

Continental Vanco Camper £118

Michelin XC £130

Michelin Agilis £142

 

These prices are for 2no and include disposal, fitting, valve, balancing and Vat.

 

Budget tyres with the same loading can be had for around £80 all in.

 

Continental for me.

[Derek Uzzell]

starvin marvin - 2011-08-25 4:17 PM

 

Currently the best prices I've found for premium tyres that are immediately available for 215/70 R15 are;

 

Continental Vanco Camper £118

Michelin XC £130

Michelin Agilis £142

 

These prices are for 2no and include disposal, fitting, valve, balancing and Vat.

 

Budget tyres with the same loading can be had for around £80 all in.

 

Continental for me.

 

If the Michelin XC tyre you've mentioned is really the "XC Camping" pattern, then it will be several years old. XC Camping was superseded by "Agilis Camping" quite a while ago.

 

"Agilis" (without the "Camping" suffix) is a a range of ordinary 'white van' tyres, whereas both Vanco Camper and Agilis Camping are specifically aimede at the motorhome market.

 

I assume you've confirmed that all the tyres you've mentioned are actually available, as there currently seems to be a severe shortage of 'camping-car' tyres. When I had my Hobby's tyres replaced a few months back, even the common-or-garden Continental Vanco-2 tyres I wanted weren't that easy to get and the fitting-centre found that certain suppliers that claimed to stock them via on-line adverts turned out not to have them and had no firm idea when they'd next be available.

 

(it's perhaps also worth adding that, if a 'camping-car' tyre is being replaced, there's a good chance that the existing metal high-pressure valve (assuming that's what's fitted) won't be renewed.)

[starvin marvin]

Derek, thanks for the reply. My thoughts re the Mich XC are exactly the same as yours. and my experience of them were that they gave a terrible ride, and vowed never to have them again.

 

As regards all the tyres I 've mentioned, and all the suppliers I've spoken to, have all said the tyres are available within 24 hrs. The proof of the pudding etc etc.

 

With regard to the metal valves, one supplier said they did not fit them, all the others could fit them if reqd, none had a price to hand, but the all-in price was for standard rubber valves.

 

I'm sure the metal valves are a better bet, but I don't think I've ever had anything other than rubber valves on any of my m/h's.

 

 

 

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

An interesting topic as I recently changed my tyres, on enquiring with my local tyre supplier about camping tyres his comment was he was happy to supply them if I was mug enough to buy them ! He said all I needed were tyres with sufficient load rating for my van. After going through the various brands I settled on some Kuhmo tyres that he ordered in for me a couple of days later, £200 a set cheaper than "camping tyres" and a much better ride to boot, go figure, he said it was all snake oil.

[Usinmyknaus]

1footinthegrave - 2011-08-25 7:31 PM

 

An interesting topic as I recently changed my tyres, on enquiring with my local tyre supplier about camping tyres his comment was he was happy to supply them if I was mug enough to buy them ! He said all I needed were tyres with sufficient load rating for my van. After going through the various brands I settled on some Kuhmo tyres that he ordered in for me a couple of days later, £200 a set cheaper than "camping tyres" and a much better ride to boot, go figure, he said it was all snake oil.

 

Thanks for that - I have no technical knowledge on tyres but this sounds eminently common sense and compelling logic. Marketing men are always looking to "segment the market" and to foist a "premium product" at a premium price on a gullible or unknowing consumer.

 

I note that Honest John in the Daily Telegraph was scathing on the myth of age-related tyre changing. He reports a letter from the owner of an up-market car. The writer had received a telephone call from his supplying dealer telling him that as his car had reached its fifth birthday it needed a new set of tyres and he should book it in with them. There was some suggestion that might be a legal requirement. Honest John's advice was to go outside, look at the inside and outside wall of each tyre and if there was no cracking, they were fine. He added that regular inspection would reveal the first surface cracks and provide ample warning of the need to buy new ones.

 

Bob

[Derek Uzzell]

1footinthegrave - 2011-08-25 7:31 PM

 

An interesting topic as I recently changed my tyres, on enquiring with my local tyre supplier about camping tyres his comment was he was happy to supply them if I was mug enough to buy them ! He said all I needed were tyres with sufficient load rating for my van. After going through the various brands I settled on some Kuhmo tyres that he ordered in for me a couple of days later, £200 a set cheaper than "camping tyres" and a much better ride to boot, go figure, he said it was all snake oil.

 

My experience of tyre-suppliers is that their understanding of the technical side of tyre design and construction is generally poor. They can fit 'em OK (or some can!!), but many of them clearly know little about 'em.

 

Is your supplier aware that, since 2003, there has been a specific ETRTO standard relating to 'camping-car' tyres that allows tyre manufacturers to mark the tyre "CP"? Is your supplier suggesting that a 'white van' tyre and a 'camping-car' tyre are actually identical, except that the tyre-manufacturer has sneakily written "Camping" on the latter and chosen to market it at a premium price? Has your supplier visited Continental's website and seen the following?

 

http://www.conti-online.com/generator/www/de/en/continental/automobile/themes/van-tires/summer-tires/vancocamper/vancocamper,tabNr=3.html

 

There's no reason to think your new Kumho tyres won't give good service on your IH motorhome (though you might try GOOGLE-searching on "Kumho recall" ;-) ), and, given your vehicle's specification, there's no particular reason to believe that you'd gain from fitting 'camping-car' tyres to it. But what you've done is choose 'white van' tyres rather than 'camping-car' tyres and, while it's possible to buy the former type cheaply, the latter are always expensive.

 

Let's say we compare two A-Class motorhomes - a £50k Itineo and an equivalent-size £70k Hymer. The Itineo is designed and manufactured to be sold at a budget price, while the Hymer targets a different market where low price is a less significant factor. It could (reasonably) be argued that, if you just wanted an A-Class motorhome, you'd be a mug to choose the Hymer as you'd save £20k by purchasing the Itineo. But it would hardly be logical to argue that the Itineo is the same as the Hymer, any more than it would be logical to argue that your Kumho tyres are the same as, say, Continental's VancoCamper.

 

Frankly, it's a waste of time trying to discuss this subject rationally. If a motorcaravanner won't/can't pay the asking-price of 'camping-car' tyres, then he/she will have to buy cheaper 'white van' tyres. An attempt to justify this Hobson's Choice decision will often involve cost-saving and/or the suggestion that there's no difference between the two types of tyre. In many (most?) instances 'white van' tyres will be perfectly adequate for motorhome usage, but in certain cases 'camping-car' tyres will be more appropriate. I'm not evangelical about this - I'm capable of deciding whether or not a tyre is likely to be suitable for the task I wish it to perform, whether it's a tyre for a wheelbarrow or one for my motorhome, and I don't see why other people shouldn't be able to do the same without endless argument or 'instruction'.

 

The 'white van' tyres versus 'camping-car' tyres subject regularly comes up on motorhome forums and it was reasonably comprehensively mauled over on:

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=21026&start=1

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

Usinmyknaus - 2011-08-26 8:43 AM

 

1footinthegrave - 2011-08-25 7:31 PM

 

An interesting topic as I recently changed my tyres, on enquiring with my local tyre supplier about camping tyres his comment was he was happy to supply them if I was mug enough to buy them ! He said all I needed were tyres with sufficient load rating for my van. After going through the various brands I settled on some Kuhmo tyres that he ordered in for me a couple of days later, £200 a set cheaper than "camping tyres" and a much better ride to boot, go figure, he said it was all snake oil.

 

Thanks for that - I have no technical knowledge on tyres but this sounds eminently common sense and compelling logic. Marketing men are always looking to "segment the market" and to foist a "premium product" at a premium price on a gullible or unknowing consumer.

 

I note that Honest John in the Daily Telegraph was scathing on the myth of age-related tyre changing. He reports a letter from the owner of an up-market car. The writer had received a telephone call from his supplying dealer telling him that as his car had reached its fifth birthday it needed a new set of tyres and he should book it in with them. There was some suggestion that might be a legal requirement. Honest John's advice was to go outside, look at the inside and outside wall of each tyre and if there was no cracking, they were fine. He added that regular inspection would reveal the first surface cracks and provide ample warning of the need to buy new ones.

 

Bob

 

The Honest John piece in the Motoring section of the August 20 Telegraph was headed:

 

TREADING CAREFULLY

 

The request from JC, Camberley for HJ's advice went:

 

"My wife drives a highly regarded German car and has recently been contacted by our local main dealer. Because the car is five years old, he said they were obliged by health and safety rules to recommend a tyre change on the grounds of age rather than wear. Is this true or just a slippery marketing ploy?"

 

HJ's reply was:

 

"That's a new one on me. It's true that tyres with high carbon black content can start to deteriorate after five years or so, but deterioration is obvious in the form of cracking. If you can't see that, there's no problem. And, of course, you should not pay a dealer to take your car to a fast-fit tyre depot. Go there yourself and save money."

 

I don't see anything in the above about a "telephone call" nor is "the myth of age-related tyre changing" mentioned. And HJ's reply can surely not be considered "scathing". I don't know where you read that "Honest John's advice was to go outside, look at the inside and outside wall of each tyre and if there was no cracking, they were fine. He added that regular inspection would reveal the first surface cracks and provide ample warning of the need to buy new ones", unless there's a longer version of this piece in a different Telegraph issue.

 

I've seen tyres that looked absolutely perfect on casual visual inspection and had deep splits in the tread grooves, while a relatively new tyre on one of my cars (that had not long passed its MOT test) had a crack right round its circumference on it's inner side close to the rim that was virtually invisible with the road-wheel in place.

 

In JC, Camberley's wife's case it appears that the main dealer was attempting to profiteer, but it's nevertheless true that a tyre-condition check at 5-years vehicle-age makes good sense. It's also true that many vehicle owners/drivers won't be competent to perform that check satisfactorily themselves.

 

(I've read the Telegraph's Honest John column for several years. While HJ's answers are normally well-worded and useful, they are always very concise, even when a quite complex issue is raised. It also needs to be appreciated that HJ very definitely isn't infallible.)

 

 

[rolandrat]

I once owned a Hymer 550 which had standard Continental tyres fitted from brand new. They gave me the most comfortable ride ever and never once caused a problem. The so called Camper tyres that are now fitted as standard certainly give a much harsher ride. My latest AutoTrail Apache 634 is fitted with them and I wish they were normal Continental commercial tyres so I will just have to put up with them.

[Derek Uzzell]

rolandrat - 2011-08-26 9:57 AM

 

I once owned a Hymer 550 which had standard Continental tyres fitted from brand new. They gave me the most comfortable ride ever and never once caused a problem. The so called Camper tyres that are now fitted as standard certainly give a much harsher ride. My latest AutoTrail Apache 634 is fitted with them and I wish they were normal Continental commercial tyres so I will just have to put up with them.

 

There's an earlier Apache 634 tyre-related forum thread on:

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=18835

 

I suspect that a large percentage of your observation regarding your present motorhome's harsh ride isn't connected to the fact that it has 'camping-car' tyres rather than 'white van' ones.

 

Your previous motorhome was a Mercedes-based Auto-Trail Cheyenne 634U fitted with Continental Vanco-8 225/70 R15C 'white van' tyres and using tyre pressures of 49psi(front) and 59-66psi (rear). It's well recognised that the Mercedes Sprinter chassis produced a softish ride (sometimes criticised as being overly soft) and the Cheyenne's tyre-type and the pressures you employed won't have negatively affected that characteristic.

 

Now you've got an X/250 Ducato-based motorhome - probably factory-fitted with Fiat's 'camping-car' option package (uprated springs, 'camping-car' tyres) - with a 10mm-narrower tyre-profile. X/250 Ducatos as a breed have a firmish ride (sometimes criticised as being overly firm) and stronger springs wouldn't improve that. With all else equal, a narrower-profile tyre will need a higher inflation-pressure to support a given weight - so that wouldn't help the ride either. 'Camping-car' tyres are advertised as having a stiffer sidewall-construction than a 'white van' tyre to cope better with continuous heavy load-carrying, and there's also the tendency for motorhome manufacturers to recommend high inflation-pressures be used with 'camping-car' tyres.

 

You can see where this is going - you now own a vehicle with firm suspension, narrowish tyres with reinforced sidewalls and a fair likelihood that the recommended inflation-pressures are high. It shouldn't really be surprising if that combination produces a ride quality that you don't find comfortable, but I believe it's debatable how much of that discomfort would suddenly disappear if you merely swapped your Apache's current 'camping-car' tyres for, say, Continental Vanco-2 'white van' tyres.

 

Personally, although I can detect a change in ride quality on my cars if I alter the tyre-pressure by, say, 5psi, I can't detect any change in my motorhome's ride if I do the same. In fact, I'm embarassed to admit that I drove the Hobby for possibly 80 miles with a rear tyre that had under 30psi in it, rather than 60psi, and I didn't notice this as far as the ride was concerned.

 

(I looked at the Auto-Trail website and it appeared that an Apache 634 with 3-litre motor had hardly any payload remaining after the usual weight-allowances had been made. Is that actually the case?)

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

My final thought is, would my tyres know the 3500 Kg load they were carrying was a Motorhome with all it's bits and bobs, or a City Link parcel van loaded to the gunnel's and driven usually with a great deal less care, makes me wonder....................I can only say my Kumho's so far are proving quieter, and seem every bit as good as "premium" brands I have forked out for in the past.Will they last as long, that's another question of course.

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

1footinthegrave - 2011-08-26 12:41 PM

 

My final thought is, would my tyres know the 3500 Kg load they were carrying was a Motorhome with all it's bits and bobs, or a City Link parcel van loaded to the gunnel's and driven usually with a great deal less care, makes me wonder....................I can only say my Kumho's so far are proving quieter, and seem every bit as good as "premium" brands I have forked out for in the past.Will they last as long, that's another question of course.

 

 

If 'camping-car' tyres were fitted to a City Link parcel van that doesn't need that type of tyre's particular specification (as advertised on the Continental website), then plainly there would be no gain. But if Kumho 'white van' tyres were fitted to a motorhome where the particular specification of a 'camping-car' tyre becomes important (ie. the motorhome is being driven habitually at (or above) the Kumho tyres' maximum load-carrying design capability) then the risks should be obvious.

 

I once told a French motorcaravan dealer that I thought it was daft for converters to fit 'camping-car' tyres to small light motorhomes, as such vehicles would never stress ordinary 'white van' tyres load-wise, and 'white van' tyres were cheaper and normally more widely available than 'camping-car' tyres. He replied "We've never known a 'camping-car' tyre on a motorhome to explode, but we've known 'white van' tyres on heavily-loaded motorhomes to burst. Besides which, French motorhome buyers expect their camping-cars to come with 'camping-car' tyres." Difficult to argue with that...

 

 

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

It's quite obvious ANY tyre running beyond it's spec is asking for trouble that goes without saying. But I say again 3500 Kg is 3500Kg be it white van or m/home, neither of which should be overloaded. Apart from differing things like grip, or the abilty to shift surface water better all brands have different performance levels. The only real difference I have been able to determine are that "camping" tyres are supposed to resist UV better as they are likely to be on the vehicle longer that a white van. I'll let you know in 5 years.