Over weight, over priced and everywhere.

[Retread24800]

I believe that today we have a market where the vans are becoming longer and heavier than in the past so much so that certain caravan mags in France are dividing catagories between VL (leisure Vehicles) and VPL ( Heavy weight vehicles), not so long ago we used to look in amazement at the US imports but with prices now approaching £150,000 and weights in excess of 8 tonne for a premium European van are we not going the same way?

With younger drivers being limited to 3500kg PTAC are we not in danger of destroying the industry certainly used prices will be controlled by the ability of younger drivers to take these camping coaches on the road without paying out an additional £1000 for an HGV licence.

Have we forgotten how to produce strong light Campers? With all the fitting and fixtures we expected 15 years ago? Fuel economy is a direct function of weight with 2.0l td engines now capable of producing 120+bhp why are we not able to buy a family size van with economy figures in the 40's?

[602]

Hi,

 

Its not just the younger drivers. Anyone over 70 has to jump a few hoops to be able to drive 3500kg MGW .... in the knowlege that they could lose that entitlement at any time.

 

I joined the RAF in 1958, used to hitch-hike home at weekends. One night, I hitched a lift in a JENSEN lorry (Google). The driver told me that it was built from aluminium to keep its weight down, and thus was exempt from the current commercial vehicle speed limits. 20mph comes to mind. Whatever, he was clocking 70 through London. The technology existed 50 years ago, but became irrelevent when the Ford Transit was introduced, and the laws were changed ........ existing haulage firms could no longer veto fresh blood.

 

602

[How Much]

Is it really any surprise that the converters are pandering to the whims of, frankly, a large number of motor-homers with more money than sense?

When you look at the kit some folk have come to expect to carry - for every conceivable eventuality, not to mention oneupmanship over their neighbour, theres only one direction van size and weight can possibly go, and thats up!

It appears that theres no gadget, no matter how expensive, and often pointless in the scheme of things, that the companies can come up with that some folk dont either expect it already installed in a vehicle, or are only too willing to cough up for and cram it in themselves. Or, drag it behind them.

Many have too literally caught the notion of being 'home from home' when they are holidaying in their vans.

I know this isnt going to go down well with some, but its fact, and the only answer for the the size of vehicles being knocked out and purchased today.

[Derek Uzzell]

Retread24800 - 2011-04-22 12:06 AM

 

I believe that today we have a market where the vans are becoming longer and heavier than in the past so much so that certain caravan mags in France are dividing catagories between VL (leisure Vehicles) and VPL ( Heavy weight vehicles), not so long ago we used to look in amazement at the US imports but with prices now approaching £150,000 and weights in excess of 8 tonne for a premium European van are we not going the same way?

With younger drivers being limited to 3500kg PTAC are we not in danger of destroying the industry certainly used prices will be controlled by the ability of younger drivers to take these camping coaches on the road without paying out an additional £1000 for an HGV licence.

Have we forgotten how to produce strong light Campers? With all the fitting and fixtures we expected 15 years ago? Fuel economy is a direct function of weight with 2.0l td engines now capable of producing 120+bhp why are we not able to buy a family size van with economy figures in the 40's?

 

 

You'll find that the terms you've quoted don't apply specifically to motorhomes.

 

VL (véhicule léger) and VPL (véhicule poids lourds) apply generally to all French-registered vehicles with respectively an overall weight limit (as you say, "PTAC" in France) up to 3500kg or over-3500kg.

 

Historically, French driving-licence regulations have meant that few French drivers other than 'professionals' (eg. lorry/coach drivers) have had the entitlement to drive VPLs. Consequently, the French motorhome marketplace has had little penetration by over-3500kg PTAC vehicles and French motorhome magazines have shown little interest in them.

 

However, it's been established fairly recently that a fair number of French drivers actually have 'grandfather' driving-licence entitlements that allow them to drive unlimited-weight motorhomes (and I really do mean "unlimited weight") and this has produced a flurry of VPL-related articles in French motorhome publications.

 

I wouldn't disagree with your other comments. Driving licence entitlements are most unlikely to become more generous in future and the holders of licences allowing them to drive over-3500kg motorhomes are bound to diminish in number over time if the present regulations don't change. This will be true in the UK as well as in France. As long as people insist on having a house on wheels and are able to buy and drive 'biggies', then the motorhome industry will respond accordingly. The problem really is not weight, it's size - if you must have a 7.5metre long motorhome, then however light and strong you can make the conversion part of the vehicle, the end-product will still be a good deal heavier than a similarly constructed 6.5metre long motorcaravan.

 

[rupert123]

No of course the ability to produce small light campers has not been lost and their are still some around. The makers will produce what people buy, the very large van is in the minority and will remain so. If the small camper is getting scarce this is because they cannot sell them, it is called market forces. We are all subject to these market forces, so just live with it, if you are part of a small minority who want a certain item you will always have a limited and usually expensive choice. The most popular size will remain between 3000-3500 kgs and if payloads, on some, get to small people will stop buying those vans, makers that stop selling and want to stay in business learn fast and will soon revert to a decent payload.

[terry1956]

hi, i don,t think new drivers can drive anything over 3.2 tons in france, and there are a number of makers producing vans at this weight concord being one of them.

michael

[Retread24800]

Over weight etc

As a new member I'm quite suprised that I've been allowed to stay on this forum after posting a 'controversial' article :-D

As far as France is concerned, if you passed your 'Permis B' before 20th january 1975 you can seek an endorsement from the Prefecture for camping -car plus de 3.5 tonne.

However being able to drive a poids lourd also requires that you abide by the lower speed limits :'( .

More and more towns and the lesser but scenic roads have weight restrictions usually 3.5 tonne which also apply to camping-car PL.

So beware , while France is the most camping-car amicable country, they also have a strict policy of enforcement. Enjoy your time overhere!

 

 

[JamesFrance]

The issue of Le Monde du Camping Car I am reading is full of write-ups of 7 to 8 metre vans, half of which is taken up by an island bedroom at the back occupying half the available length, so that they still have only a half dinette and swivel seats at the front.

 

Even the heavy ones often seem to be fitted with the 2.3 motor, presumably to keep the price down, however when they keep them below 3500kgs they only have a load capacity of about 120 kilos which makes them practically useless.

 

Presumably the buyers get a kick out of having the longest van on the Aire, but never go far from home.

 

I was just reading a test of a 7.3 metre Benimar with a list price of 42900€, exactly the same as our panel van, so no wonder people think they are good value.

 

Presumably the narrowing of prices is because they are all using the same equipment, so a larger one is just containing more air than a small one and a few feet of grp or sandwich.

 

It is just the same with boats, our Beneteau is 32ft long and is now one of the smallest boats in the marina. 50 years ago people sailed round the world in 28ft boats, but now a complete beginner will start with a 43 footer. There is even a guy in our marina who has just had a 53ft sailboat delivered by road and he has never sailed in his life.

 

 

[Guest Tracker]

Nothing controversial about your postings Roger - you raise a perfectly valid point and I can see where you are coming from.

 

The biggest casualty in over heavy modern vans seems to be their unladen weight proximity to GVW leaving in many cases an inadequate payload?

 

It must be the base vehicles which are getting heavier with all the safety gear and emission control crap being foisted on us by the eco freaks in Brussels because it sure ain't in the build quality and durability of the conversion in many cases!

[Retread24800]

Tracker - 2011-04-22 2:45 PM

 

The biggest casualty in over heavy modern vans seems to be their unladen weight proximity to GVW leaving in many cases an inadequate payload?

 

It must be the base vehicles which are getting heavier ....... because it sure ain't in the build quality and durability of the conversion in many cases!

 

In 2007 I bougt a Chausson Flash c/w end bedroom etc. and was (after six months of continual use) shall we say disappointed with the build quality, base Vehicle (tranny 120) was fine. So much so that I sold it soon after while completing my house build. Last year I got the travel bug again and looked round for a panel van to convert my self using the guts from my ancient Bessacar Cadby, while searching for a base vehicle I came across my ancient Hymer, 60000miles on the clock and already converted.

I was literally Gobsmacked that a van this old could be in such good condition and with so much usable inside space! I guess the durability is all down to build quality but if my experience is typical some of the modern vans will not last the course....No 'bottom' :-D

[747]

The future for many will be self build due to many of the reasons given in this thread. The vast majority of motorhomers would be gone in a flash if they could not have all of their luxuries built in to their van.

 

I notice a big difference in the attitudes of people who have motorhomed for many years and the newcomers. Most posts on forums fall into 2 categories.

 

1) Talking about the latest gadgets

and

2) Asking for help when the latest gadgets go wrong.

 

The 'camping' ethos has disappeared, the motorhome is the poor mans luxury yacht these days. Hopefully, another fad will come along shortly and sense will prevail.

[rupert123]

Here we go again with the 'nothing as good as it used to be' brigade. People still go on about modern cars as if those from 20 years ago were somehow better, short memory span I guess, now M/H,s. Well you can keep your old wrecks, me a modern van every time. I want my van to be as comfortable as possible within its limits, it is only 6mtrs long so not very big. I want my TV, my full oven, my decent size fridge, my scooter on the back. I want it to drive well and not keep falling to bits with decent brakes, pulling power and ride. I like aircon, cruise control, mp3 player, satnav etc. I like my computor, mobile phone, cd player, camera's, am I overloaded, well no. I dislike staying in carparks and layby's, calling it wild camping to give it some sort of false glamour. Guess we all use M/H,s for differant reasons, my wife and I like the freedom to trawl around Europe without planning at a reasonable price. We do not use our van because we are in love with M/H,s for their own sake although I am prefectly happy talking about them she has no interest at all other than it being a 'means to an end' certainly not an end in itself. M/H,s now are certainly better built, better value, more choice and more reliable than they have ever been. If you want to rough it in something that never goes wrong buy a tent.

[Guest pelmetman]

I'm probably tempting fate by saying that the only part of my tranny which has failed in 21 years has been the fuel & temperture gauge....................twice 8-)

[olley]

If you went on the RV sites, you would find a lot of them are HGV drivers, as just a brief drive down any road will confirm, there's a lot of lorry's about, so I can't see the pool of eligible drivers drying up in the near future. Also if you can afford £50,000 plus, spending £1200 to get a licence won't break the bank.

 

I like our RV, I like the room and the home comforts, I like the aircon, heating, fridge/freezer, large bed etc. I started of with a Leyland Shepa pop-up roof in the seventy's, it drove like a tank, it handled like a tank, and rusted as fast as you could blink, but we have some great memory's, and that's where I want them to stay.

 

People want more, and its not just in motorhomes, look in your house, what have you got that your grandfather never had, but he managed ok. We could all go back to living in a tent, but who wants to?

 

Ian

[747]

Can I remind you all that there has been a recent discussion directly related to the very modest allowance for chattels in new vans. Rather than going back to the days when you propped the rear doors open in your Mk 1 Tranny selfbuild (ie, mattress on the floor and galvanised bucket for a toilet) with an old billiard cue. :D, it might be better if the prospective owner had more say in the construction of his new vehicle.

 

There has been an all electric option in panel van conversions for at least 2 years. No gas bottles needed and fine for club sites.

 

As most m/homers exclusively use club sites, why have a shower in the first place (more space available)? Why need a large leisure battery when on hook up all of the time?

 

Why cannot the owner specify a smaller fridge/freezer and not necessarily the latest model with automatic changeover?

 

You are the customer but have limited say in a very expensive purchase. Owners often say that the model they own was the closest to what they require. Very few say it is perfect for their needs.

 

In my case, I have a large van and intend to keep it as long as possible. When I want to downsize, I hope things will have changed as there is nothing smaller on the market that takes my fancy (for various reasons), this is why I am looking to selfbuild, or more correctly have some areas done professionally to my specifications.

 

I could have forecast what Colonel Blimp would say as the man has no soul whatsoever. Rupert, have you no urge to get away from it all and relax for a few days. I honestly believe that you are sad if you cannot manage without your toys for a while. One day you will realise that you have wasted your life away. This hatred of wildcampers is unnatural and says a lot about you. I am not keen to use sites in case I wind up next to someone like you. 8-)

[colin]

I would say the convertors build what they can sell, if thats large heavy expensive vans so be it. There's still plenty of lighter weight vans about. If in years to came the market changes, then I guess they will build even more light weight vans.

[JamesFrance]

rupert123 - 2011-04-22 5:57 PM

M/H,s now are certainly better built, better value, more choice and more reliable than they have ever been. If you want to rough it in something that never goes wrong buy a tent.

 

Not better built, but built to save as much cost as possible. For example 25 years ago a Hymermobil had an allover galvanised steel framework to give it strength. They now have the minimum that they can have to protect the passenger seats.

 

Modern equipment has got much more complicated, so an expensive nightmare for the user when it fails. Just have a look at the retail prices of heaters and fridges (not what the constructor pays of course).

[oldlowie]

Remember the Datsun Sunny?

 

It was a massive waft of fresh Eastern air, showing up the Cortinas, Hunters and Victors for what they were: overpriced, unreliable tat from manufacturers who could get away with murder. >:-)

 

The bloated caravan/motorhome manufacturing industry needs a similar kick up the bum.

 

If the motorhome business wasn't so tiny, the Japanese would have jumped in and would now be the dominant force.

 

Let's hope the sector gets bigger, then we can move into the 21st century. :D :D :D

[Rosbotham]

rupert123 - 2011-04-22 10:29 AM

 

No of course the ability to produce small light campers has not been lost and their are still some around. The makers will produce what people buy, the very large van is in the minority and will remain so. If the small camper is getting scarce this is because they cannot sell them, it is called market forces. We are all subject to these market forces, so just live with it, if you are part of a small minority who want a certain item you will always have a limited and usually expensive choice. The most popular size will remain between 3000-3500 kgs and if payloads, on some, get to small people will stop buying those vans, makers that stop selling and want to stay in business learn fast and will soon revert to a decent payload.

 

Wisest words said on this thread. The constructors will produce what the market wishes to buy, otherwise they wouldn't be in business. That means a few home comforts - I own a motorhome not a campervan, the clue's in the name. Maybe there is a market for stripped down vans, but at present that doesn't seem to be the case. A significant proportion of the market "upgrades" from caravans. Look at what they're like nowadays - who in their right mind would spend £15-20k more to upgrade to something with half the facilities taken away?

 

The licensing issue is overblown. Give it 10-15 years and it'll be an issue, but not now. Anyone (UK) who can't drive a 3.5tonne+ van is younger than 32 (based on usual route of passing when you're 18), or over 70 and not pursuing retaining their C1 rights. Things will evolve, but at the moment that's a small proportion of the market, which peaks at 50-60 year olds...how many 20-somethings do you know who can afford to lay out £30-grand+ on a motorhome?

[rupert123]

Oh dear I seem to have upset Jim, 747, so sorry Jimbo. You just carry on parking in laybys, no problem for me, and living your 'wildcamping' dream. As for me will continue with my campsites and the better aires/stellplatz. Perhaps you can point out what I am missing by liking things I listed, are you telling me you have none of them, how sad. I did my roughing it when I was rock climbing in the UK, Alps, Dolomites, Provence etc in my tent, that was wildcamping. Now I just ski off piste for a couple of months a year and do a lot of pretty easy walking but like to be comfortable as well, see nothing wrong with that. Oh what are these club sites in Europe you say most M/H,s use, must try and find them as I have never seen any sort of club site. You are right in one thing I do dislike people who camp outside the campsite/aires system, not personally, but because they continue to get M/H's a bad name all over Europe. While they continue to do this more and more places will be closed off to the rest of us who just want to park for a short while to visit a place but unfortunatly are lumped in with the freeloaders like you.

[Derek Uzzell]

terry1956 - 2011-04-22 12:16 PM

 

hi, i don,t think new drivers can drive anything over 3.2 tons in france, and there are a number of makers producing vans at this weight concord being one of them.

michael

 

To the best of my knowledge, the "B" driving-licence entitlement obtained by passing the current French basic 'car' driving test is no different in scope vehicle-weight-wise to that obtained by passing the current UK basic car driving test - it allows one to drive a vehicle with an overall weight up to 3500kg.

 

I can find nothing to indicate that France imposes a 3200kg limit. In fact, I would have thought that European agreements regarding driving licence harmonisation would prevent any such 'national' restriction.

 

If you know differently, could you identify the source of your information, please?

[Derek Uzzell]

olley - 2011-04-22 6:58 PM

 

If you went on the RV sites, you would find a lot of them are HGV drivers, as just a brief drive down any road will confirm, there's a lot of lorry's about, so I can't see the pool of eligible drivers drying up in the near future. Also if you can afford £50,000 plus, spending £1200 to get a licence won't break the bank...

 

In France (which is where this thread began) driving licence regulations have caused the motorhome market there to revolve almost exclusively around vehicles with an overall weight no greater than 3500kg. Selling a second-hand VPL motorhome in France is a lot harder than selling a VL motorhome and, consequently, even French motorcaravanners with a VPL driving licence entitlement will tend to opt for a VL model unless they want something really really large. Whereas it's been common in the UK to offer motorhomes with, say, a 3850kg or 4000kg overall weight, such models would normally be sold in France at 3500kg (and hang the realistic payload!) A 3500kg weight-ceiling allows anyone - young or old - with a standard 'car' licence to become a motorcaravanner and all manufacturers of motorhomes who sell into the French marketplace fully understand this.

 

It also needs to be recognised that French drivers may not be too concerned over forking out the money needed to obtain a 'heavy' licence, but may be much less comfortable over the challenge involved in the training and/or the related medical requirements involved.

 

As far as the UK is concerned, although truckers may in future be interested in RV-size motorhomes, I can't see why they should be particularly keen on light-heavyweights in the 3501kg-4000kg range. Realistically, it has to be asked what the future holds for the many UK-registered light-heavyweight motorhomes as older UK drivers let their 'grandfather' entitlements lapse at 70 and younger drivers are faced with extra training/testing and extra cost to permit them to drive those vehicles.

[JamesFrance]

The French rules can be found here:

http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/particuliers/F2827.xhtml#N10118

 

If someone wants to read this in English, the Google toolbar can easily translate any web page. In general I dislike toolbars but this one is worth having.

[602]

Hi,

 

My father's red-book driving licence said "ALL GROUPS". It cost him five shillings sometime in the 1920s, and he never took a test. I didn't see the DVLC licence that replaced it.

 

602

[olley]

Derek Uzzell - 2011-04-23 8:33 AM

As far as the UK is concerned, although truckers may in future be interested in RV-size motorhomes, I can't see why they should be particularly keen on light-heavyweights in the 3501kg-4000kg range.

 

MPG Derek, mine around 9 mpg, the big diesels anywhere from 6-10mpg, a eurovan in the 4-5ton range around 20mpg I believe, with escalating fuel prices the advantages of a 12t RV become harder to justify, and the attraction of a smaller eurovan grows. There is already a caravan now with a slide, once one of the European manufactures brings out a decent slide, most of the advantages of the small RV like mine (9.5m) will lost.

 

The market for large vans has always been small both here and abroad, and selling them more difficult, but that's reflected in the price I would have thought.

 

I would agree that in years to come us grandfather righter's will die off, but with increasing regulation and the desire for more and more "extra's" in vans, it will surely be next to impossible to sell a four berth motorhome with a sensible payload under 3.5t, forcing either a change in the regs, or taking the "C" test.

 

Ian